Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?

Maggiesdad

First things first.......

Although I have made some contributions to the occasional thread, mostly well dones etc I have shyed away from most strategy/advice types.

Why?

1. Lack of knowledge - simply put, I am not a good enough player to be able to advise others - or challenge others when I don't agree with their view.

2. Lack of clarity - there are just so many variables in all poker situations that you can just about build a supportive arguement for any action/inaction in a hand. As a result, after a lot of views, I don't feel that I am ever any nearer to understanding things.

I did once start a thread asking if knowledge could make you a worse player (killing your possibly high level instinct with low level knowledge) and was shot down BIG TIME.

But now I think I may have a reasonable question, that can provoke a reasonable discussion

I ask this because, at all levels, cash and tournaments, I see players who seem to play any 2 from most positions (admittedly more often in position) with their stategy being:

a) Call any raise pre

b) Call any flop/turn bet with 2nd pair+ and /or good draw

c) Fold on river if don't improve or go LARGE and get paid off when the 2 outer improves your hand and is almost "unreadable"

So, I have come to this conclusion

YOU CAN PLAY THIS WAY IF YOU ARE SO WELL ROLLED THAT YOU JUST WAIT FOR THE MIRACLE HANDS TO COME IN AND GET THE MONSTER PAY OFF

Now I am not saying that this is wrong, or anything like that, but does it take the skill out of the game?

Please feel free to reply, but give it some thought

Mike

grantorino

Bankroll management is useless unless you are a winning player. BRM just protects against variance. If you are a losing player eventually you lose it all

martin111

100%.the bankroll is the key.that s why i m so bad player!!!gl

Spad3s

Definitely , because everyone knows that if you a big enough bankroll, eventually the chips will start spawning new chips and your bankroll will grow.

El_Mogul

No... if you exercise good bankroll management and play bad then it will just take longer to lose your roll than if you didn't exercise good BRM management. To be successful at poker you need both good BRM management and you need to play good. Simple as.
 

Maggiesdad

Thanks for the replys all

Protecting against variance suggests that you want hands to hold up....I am saying that these players play the opposite way....wanting the 2 outers to hit

Lambert180

Yeah but just use your common sense.

If you're on the turn and call for gutshot, you'll hit it abuot 10% of the time (I think), maybe a bit less, so when yuo call, 90% of the time you lose, and even some on the 10% where you hit, you might be splitting it or still losing. No amount of bankroll management is gonna affect that this will lose long term.

Dudeskin8

If you know you are playing bad poker then you should assign yourself a 'budget' i.e. money that you can happily lose, if however you start winning regulary it can turn into a BR that steadily increases.

Maggiesdad

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?:

Yeah but just use your common sense. If you're on the turn and call for gutshot, you'll hit it abuot 10% of the time (I think), maybe a bit less, so when yuo call, 90% of the time you lose, and even some on the 10% where you hit, you might be splitting it or still losing. No amount of bankroll management is gonna affect that this will lose long term.
Posted by Lambert180

This assumes that all pots are the same size so that 10% is always the same monetary value...it is the 2 outer that hits when their opponent has a stack behind that is big enough to justify this approach, that I am talking about.

But thank you for taking the trouble to reply.

harding10

Try an experiment then. Deposit 100 buy-ins at whatever level you want, and then play badly. See if you make a fortune.

Oopnorth

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?:

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player? : This assumes that all pots are the same size so that 10% is always the same monetary value...it is the 2 outer that hits when their opponent has a stack behind that is big enough to justify this approach, that I am talking about. But thank you for taking the trouble to reply.
Posted by Maggiesdad

But if that call has a 10% chance of winning you need to be getting odds of at least 10/1 to make it a call. In otherwords winning 10x what you put into that final part of the pot. Either that or Im so confused at the basis of the initial post that my brain has fried.... and i can no longer count.

Maggiesdad

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?:

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player? : But if that call has a 10% chance of winning you need to be getting odds of at least 10/1 to make it a call. In otherwords winning 10x what you put into that final part of the pot. Either that or Im so confused at the basis of the initial post that my brain has fried.... and i can no longer count.
Posted by Oopnorth

Does this help....

you have 2200 your op has 2000

you aipf with qq

your op calls with ak

he hits

you left with 200, he has 4000

next hand, you aipf with AK, he calls with QQ

you hit

you have 400, he has 3800

and yet ESSENTIALLY, 2 x 50/50's

grantorino

OP what is your point?

If you keep playing at a level you lose you eventually go broke

If you start this level with 1 billion buy ins it takes longer than when you start with 3 buy ins, but you still go broke

as regards the example above if you play a lot it evens itself out

Oopnorth

To paraphrase some rich clever folk on Dragons Den, it'll never work, save your money, I'm out !

Maggiesdad

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?:

OP what is your point? If you keep playing at a level you lose you eventually go broke If you start this level with 1 billion buy ins it takes longer than when you start with 3 buy ins, but you still go broke as regards the example above if you play a lot it evens itself out
Posted by grantorino

Thank you for your reply

Maggiesdad

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?:

OP what is your point? If you keep playing at a level you lose you eventually go broke If you start this level with 1 billion buy ins it takes longer than when you start with 3 buy ins, but you still go broke as regards the example above if you play a lot it evens itself out
Posted by grantorino

So it's not just a question of winning your flips.....it's about winning the right flips...

Dazler

if you keep calling your chips will dwindle progressivly each hand looking for these hits, then you wont get value for money when you do have a hand and hit big. If you keep limping and calling raises to hit mircle 2 pairs how often are you gonna hit it not often and when you do a good player will have a good idea if hes a head or behind by the way he bets and the type of player you are and so will punish you for playing like that in another hand and make you go broke. No real argument if your a bad player you will lose no matter what your bankroll in the end.

Russ76

I think if your looking to just creep in to profit on a monthly basis you need to at least break even and put lots of volume in to take advantage of rakeback/c4p

GELDY

I think you are mixing up two different points.

The answer to your question is no - but it can enable a losing rec player to have a lot of fun while remaining within his monthly budget.

But the question I think you are wanting to ask is: can a loose player win at poker over time.

Two answers:

1. "calling stations" - no - you want to play them because over time you will win

2. loose pre-flop actives - yes - if their post flop play is good enough. Some (?most #debate) of the top pros are highly profitable and quite loose pre-flop

Maggiesdad

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?:

if you keep calling your chips will dwindle progressivly each hand looking for these hits, then you wont get value for money when you do have a hand and hit big. If you keep limping and calling raises to hit mircle 2 pairs how often are you gonna hit it not often and when you do a good player will have a good idea if hes a head or behind by the way he bets and the type of player you are and so will punish you for playing like that in another hand and make you go broke. No real argument if your a bad player you will lose no matter what your bankroll in the end.
Posted by Dazler

I agree with the first part of your answer in tournaments, but, if they top up regularly, surely it doesnt apply to cash? In fact, this is how the money gets made....thank you for your reply

Maggiesdad

In Response to Re: Can great bankroll management allow you to play "bad" poker and still be a winning player?:

I think you are mixing up two different points. The answer to your question is no - but it can enable a losing rec player to have a lot of fun while remaining within his monthly budget. But the question I think you are wanting to ask is: can a loose player win at poker over time. Two answers: 1. "calling stations" - no - you want to play them because over time you will win 2. loose pre-flop actives - yes - if their post flop play is good enough. Some (?most #debate) of the top pros are highly profitable and quite loose pre-flop
Posted by GELDY

Thank you for your reply....especially point 2 in relation to cash....I think that it kind of supports my view but I may be mis reading it