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400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot

offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
edited May 2012 in The Poker Clinic
Thought i'd post this as i never play HU. My memory isnt too good but from what i can remember this was vs what i assume was a competent reg, who i'd never played before. I would guess a little on the tight side, didnt 3b too frequently and i think this was the first 3bet he'd called out of about 4. Dont think there had been any real big pots of note before this and he hadnt done anything out of the ordinary.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
villain Small blind   £2.00 £2.00 £417.00
offshoot Big blind   £4.00 £6.00 £490.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • 10
     
villain Raise   £10.00 £16.00 £407.00
offshoot Raise   £32.00 £48.00 £458.00
villain Call   £24.00 £72.00 £383.00
Flop
   
  • K
  • J
  • A
     
offshoot Bet   £40.00 £112.00 £418.00
villain Call   £40.00 £152.00 £343.00
Turn
   
  • 6
     
offshoot Bet   £100.00 £252.00 £318.00
villain Call   £100.00 £352.00 £243.00
River
   
  • K
     
offshoot?
«1

Comments

  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2012

    probably just shove ! more hands that you beat than not but will still call a shove

    if oppo turn over AK/KJ, like mmmm how do we ever c/f or b/f versus the amount oppo has got left

    oppo probabbly checks it back anyway with anything you beat








  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited May 2012
    Yeah oppo only has 70% of pot left on river, got to be shove for me, if he has us beat just sigh and reload.  
  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited May 2012
    Surely gotta just shove
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited May 2012
    I'm not sure I've seen anyone post an NL400 hand before...

    Anyway, I'd go for the check-call. I'm not so sure that there are that many worse hands that call our shove. I'd reason that there are a few hands that might shove on us as either a bluff or for relatively thin value. If he checks back a bare King or Ace, then I'd shrug my shoulders and say I've missed some value. I'm sure I don't have to say it but folding shouldn't be an option.
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot:
    I'm not sure I've seen anyone post an NL400 hand before... Anyway, I'd go for the check-call. I'm not so sure that there are that many worse hands that call our shove. I'd reason that there are a few hands that might shove on us as either a bluff or for relatively thin value. If he checks back a bare King or Ace, then I'd shrug my shoulders and say I've missed some value. I'm sure I don't have to say it but folding shouldn't be an option.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    I know it's so exciting !







    Sorry I gone a bit silly -_-
  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196 Member Posts: 1,170
    edited May 2012
    Value bet!?, tight H/U players love to "rope-a-dope" aggros, but he may be more inclined to play his monster hands faster since its a pretty wet board? if that would be the case KJ(EDIT:kj being a marginal monster hand here) would fit with villains line, so it would be a concern for sure but thats prob top of his c/c range.

    With v little dynamics i prob b/c ~130 value from Ax, kq etc.
  • sikassikas Member Posts: 857
    edited May 2012
    first of all im pretty sure the have the best hand 100% of the time, ur only beat by AA, KK, JJ, AK + KJ and JJ+ and AK+ i would have thought would be in villains 4bet range

    and i think u would get raised by KJ on the Flop/Turn with villain fearing that any spade/club/Q/T would kill 'his' action + also the possibility he will be beat if any of them fall so its just as likely he would raise to protect his hand

    anyway....if u check river pretty sure he only bets 

    - Flush Draw/other AIR as a bluff
    - KQ, KT maybe
    - KJ ...if he decided to play this way

    he checks back every other Broadway combo with some showdown value  AT, AJ, QJ, AQ etc...

    so..... if u shove river -  f-draws fold, misc combo's fold, and only exactly KQ, KT 'might' call, and obv KJ defo calls

    so i think its best to under-bet something like £70-80 and hope he spazzes out - with this bet KQ, KT defo call (altough u lose some value) but also pretty much all his combos are likely to call another £70 into ~£430 + plus givces him room to spa zz out with his QJcc - obv ur never folding, and if he flips KJ...then gg


  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2012
    nice breakdown Sikas & Whoami

    Question for both of you:

     b/c £80ish, don't we just hold up a sign saying that we ain't folding

  • JSTFLIPPINJSTFLIPPIN Member Posts: 255
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot:
    nice breakdown Sikas & Whoami Question for both of you:  b/c £80ish, don't we just hold up a sign saying that we ain't folding
    Posted by rancid
    no
  • offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot:
    nice post sikas im no expert on cash far from it but people are not silly when u say 70-80 bet thin value i see this alot and looks like a block bet meaning u dnt want to get raised on and u dnt want to check to to opponent so he puts u in tricky spot with a all in here  so u say bet 70-80 but a really good cash player would see this as a block bet and would shove here and then what would u do tricky spot so imo i think check call is the right move here i maybe wrong 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    Even if the correct play might be to shove, i think most people when faced with a small blocking bet more often than not will call if they have some showdown value, which he most likely has here.
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot:
    first of all im pretty sure the have the best hand 100% of the time, ur only beat by AA, KK, JJ, AK + KJ and JJ+ and AK+ i would have thought would be in villains 4bet range and i think u would get raised by KJ on the Flop/Turn with villain fearing that any spade/club/Q/T would kill 'his' action + also the possibility he will be beat if any of them fall so its just as likely he would raise to protect his hand anyway....if u check river pretty sure he only bets  - Flush Draw/other AIR as a bluff - KQ, KT maybe - KJ ...if he decided to play this way he checks back every other Broadway combo with some showdown value  AT, AJ, QJ, AQ etc... so..... if u shove river -  f-draws fold, misc combo's fold, and only exactly KQ, KT 'might' call, and obv KJ defo calls so i think its best to under-bet something like £70-80 and hope he spazzes out - with this bet KQ, KT defo call (altough u lose some value) but also pretty much all his combos are likely to call another £70 into ~£430 + plus givces him room to spa zz out with his QJcc - obv ur never folding, and if he flips KJ...then gg
    Posted by sikas
    I agree with the 4-bettinng range, but I don't think he necessarily 4-bets every time with those hands. Assuming offshoot's 3-betting range is pretty wide, our opponent isn't always going to want to close down the action by 4-betting if he's holding AA or KK. So I don't think we can say he definitely hasn't played those hands this way.

    I don't mind the idea of betting small. I have to admit that I tend to look at these things with a tournament mind - we have less than a pot-bet back, so it's shove or check. Of course we can bet small for value in cash, but I think that when we bet small it's going to look an awful lot like a value bet. I don't think it will ever be viewed as a blocker bet and therefore we can never expect to be shoved on by a weak hand. So I suppose that's an argument for folding to a shove after betting £70 or so... but I don't think I would ever find a fold.

    So I think the question is; does our £70 bet get called by twice as much of his range as a shove does? I don't know, to be honest, but if the answer is no then we should shove... Although I would still check and look to pick off a shove from him, with what I would think would be a wider range than would call. Can't say if it's "right" but it's what I'd do.
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2012
    Just shove. 

    Wud bet bigger on flop n turn too. 


    *edit, didn't read posts before I replied, ^high 5^ Rancid & Dudenit  :)
  • offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
    edited May 2012
    If my hand is 56 do you still advocate shoving this river?
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot:
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot : Even if the correct play might be to shove, i think most people when faced with a small blocking bet more often than not will call if they have some showdown value, which he most likely has here.
    Posted by offshoot
    yeah sure btm of oppo range flats the blocker, but does middle range call the shove :S
    And somtimes does btm range still call the shove anyway....given whats left behind

    - if we say it's a given we only get called or shoved on by better the minority of the time
    Is it better we shove and be called more often with hands that we beat or bet out and only be called sometimes and get folds the other times

    Very perplexing :S










  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited May 2012
    Im personally shoving... altho sikas does sound like hes talking a bit of sense but im a fish all in :) 
  • Wacko90Wacko90 Member Posts: 906
    edited May 2012
    When he flats the turn for 100 what are you putting him on?
    I think the river is 100% C/C. The k is a terrible card for you imo the only had he has missed is the FD so you get no value from betting anyway. 

    Not sure what your image is to him though surely thats important? If he thinks your a nit then what does he call a river shove with something that you beat? If your playing aggro and getting to showdown with air or weaker hands then maybe a shove is right if he calls with worse. I dont think a competent reg would call 100 on turn with just a fd, of course he could be playing something like akss but thats unlikely i think AQss is more likely here. Argh such a tough hand!! But yeah id be check calling river here. The main point for me being if you shove river more times than not he will have you beat if he calls imo. Dont play much HU though so maybe my thinking is totally flawed.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot:
    If my hand is 56 do you still advocate shoving this river?
    Posted by offshoot
    I was just wondering this when people start saying he folds everything worse than KQ

    bet flop and turn bigger imo, its not likely hes going to float or raise that board with air

    I think I like jamming, although sikas talks a lot of sense. Really dont like c/c
  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited May 2012
    I think you're an aggro player yeh?

    So he obv knows this, and could even station down with something like A10 maybe?
  • offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
    edited May 2012
    The reason why i dont like c/c is that i dont really think he bluffs me here that often or has a hand where he needs to bluff. Most of his FD's have pairs so he probably just checks it with them and weak aces. The only thing he bets is a K probably.

    I also dont like a shove. Seems like youre just wanting him to call with a lot of hands he probably doesnt have. Its also hard to stay balanced when you shove this board. Youre just setting yourself up to get valuetowned most of the time. Its probably wise not to shove randon FD's on this board so how can it be right to shove something like QT?
  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail Member Posts: 1,755
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: 400nl HU: River decision in 3b pot:
    The reason why i dont like c/c is that i dont really think he bluffs me here that often or has a hand where he needs to bluff. Most of his FD's have pairs so he probably just checks it with them and weak aces. The only thing he bets is a K probably. I also dont like a shove. Seems like youre just wanting him to call with a lot of hands he probably doesnt have. Its also hard to stay balanced when you shove this board. Youre just setting yourself up to get valuetowned most of the time. Its probably wise not to shove randon FD's on this board so how can it be right to shove something like QT?
    Posted by offshoot
    You said you had never seen/played this person before, so do you really need to be that balanced on quite a specific situation like this?
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