What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep

Spad3s

Position	Name	Stack
UTG		$268.67 (268.7 bb)
MP		$100.58 (100.6 bb)
CO	Hero	$484.58 (484.6 bb)
BTN		$260 (260 bb)
SB		$100 (100 bb)
BB		$115.32 (115.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Kh Kc
UTG raises to $3, MP calls $3, Hero raises to $14, 3 folds, UTG calls $11, MP folds

Flop: ($32.50) Tc 8c 5h (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($32.50) Kd (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $22, UTG calls $22

River: ($76.50) As (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $54, UTG raises to $157, Hero  ????


Not much info on opponent but seems tight and decent. I considered call, fold and raise!!!, then ruled out raise, he prob wont call with worse sets or two pair and never checks two street with a set anyway.

So call or fold?, can never see him bluffing here.

AMYBR

bet flop call river.

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do?:

bet flop call river.
Posted by AMYBR

Wanted to pot control on flop, because we were so deep.
Also might make him put more money in with nothing. Dont know if its good or bad.

donkeyplop

I guess qj got there on river.

Hard to put him on aces from pre flop betting.

I'm calling here hoping he has lower set.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: What to do?:

In Response to Re: What to do? : Wanted to pot control on flop, because we were so deep. Also might make him put more money in with nothing. Dont know if its good or bad.
Posted by Spad3s

Really not a spot for pot control IMO.

KAM99

Only two hands beating you with AA and QJ. QJ is pretty loose call to make to a 3bet pre when OOP, and AA i guess would depend if he is tricky player as normally would expect a 4bet pre. So think fold is out of the question with only 2 hands ahead of us and he could quite possibly have AK here or even A10, though less likely again OOP.

I agree he isn't likely bluffing, but think it would be a tad weak to fold a set with only two hands beating us. So call and don't raise and hope its not just a crying call vs a tricky AA or QJ suited or something.

Also, as a side note. I'm not checking the flop for pot control really. Bet the flop and check the turn maybe if he calls on a board like that, ut I'd rather get my value on flop and information about just how strong UTG is at the same time. After all he would expect a cbet, so I don't mind going with it. After all really we should be prepared to get it all in preflop with KK, so not sure I love the idea of pot control on a flop unless its wildly wet across his likely range.

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do?:

In Response to Re: What to do? : Really not a spot for pot control IMO.
Posted by AMYBR

Maybe not.

But my thinking was, if he check raises me and then starts leading other streets Im going to be guessing in a very big pot. He could have air, big draws, two pair or sets and Im clueless.

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

After all really we should be prepared to get it all in preflop with KK, so not sure I love the idea of pot control on a flop unless its wildly wet across his likely range.
Posted by KAM99

Would be a lot of strength preflop to have money go allin I think.
270 bb deep, my 3bet against his utg raise shows strength, but if he 4bets me he looks really strong.
A five bet by me looks massive, he would want to have some big reads on me to 6bet allin with ak or qq or bluffs.

KAM99

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep : Would be a lot of strength preflop to have money go allin I think. 270 bb deep, my 3bet against his utg raise shows strength, but if he 4bets me he looks really strong. A five bet by me looks massive, he would want to have some big reads on me to 6bet allin with ak or qq or bluffs.
Posted by Spad3s

Just meant in normal situation you'd be happy to get it in pre with KK. As he called your 3bet pre what range of hands we putting him on? Really unlikely its a small PP though deep as you are it is possible I guess. More likely is higher PP of 1010+ or AQ+ with maybe on odd occasions suited connectors trying to gut an over pair. So on that basis I don't see an issue with betting the flop. Sure he might C/R, but he might call or fold too, and he could do the same on the turn as well. So not sure I see a desperate need to be pot controlling the flop, but each to their own method when it comes to that I guess, as I know some people prefer to play a small pot with only a pair, even if its overpair.

Surprised you say you didn't have much info on him, as by your stack I assume you been on the table a while, as its 100NL right? So unless its deep stack he has got up over 1.5 buyins, so unless he just got big pot early I'd assume he had been sat with you a little while?

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

As he called your 3bet pre what range of hands we putting him on? Really unlikely its a small PP though deep as you are it is possible I guess. More likely is higher PP of 1010+ or AQ+ with maybe on odd occasions suited connectors trying to gut an over pair.
Posted by KAM99

I think he has a lot more. Id put be putting him on any pp,  suited connectors, at+, some hands like 79s 69s kts etc and the odd random hand.

I think pocket pairs are the most likely.

Surprised you say you didn't have much info on him, as by your stack I assume you been on the table a while, as its 100NL right? So unless its deep stack he has got up over 1.5 buyins, so unless he just got big pot early I'd assume he had been sat with you a little while?
Posted by KAM99

Yeah, youre right, its only a 100bb table and he had been there a while!, but hadnt played much with him and had 10 other tables open.

Wasnt paying enough attention.

AMYBR

Sigh just typed long response but went up in smoke.

So again....

I'd be like puh leeze c/r me here Even more so if the dynamic suggests we might get this action.

What draws and 2pr hands are there on the flop to pot control vs bud?  Only hand we have to worry about are sets and A's.  If its A's its just Myeh w/e nh.  Air has 2 live outs for whopping 13% off flop.

Just simplify the hand bud.  No need to make it complicated.  On river its just far too nitty to check back 2nd set.  So we pretty much have to bet.  So ok we get c/r'd, but without a ridic soulread we are never folding so its an obv call, never a raise (99% of time).  Win or lose, mostly optimum. 

Only thing wrong is checking flop.  Just lose so much value vs OP's 10x hands and floats.

FWIW dont agree that hand is always AA JQ, think as board runs out there will be a few confused 2pr hands, weaker sets and bluffs.  The river c/r is whats kinda polarising to obv top of his range and bluffs.  Forget hero folding, just pay it off and know that some of the time we are beat, most of the time we are winning vs    terribad ------+ Mercier range of players

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

Sigh just typed long response but went up in smoke. So again.... I'd be like puh leeze c/r me here Even more so if the dynamic suggests we might get this action. What draws and 2pr hands are there on the flop to pot control vs bud?  Only hand we have to worry about are sets and A's.  If its A's its just Myeh w/e nh.  Air has 2 live outs for whopping 13% off flop. Just simplify the hand bud.  No need to make it complicated.  On river its just far too nitty to check back 2nd set.  So we pretty much have to bet.  So ok we get c/r'd, but without a ridic soulread we are never folding so its an obv call, never a raise (99% of time).  Win or lose, mostly optimum.  Only thing wrong is checking flop.  Just lose so much value vs OP's 10x hands and floats. FWIW dont agree that hand is always AA JQ, think as board runs out there will be a few confused 2pr hands, weaker sets and bluffs.  The river c/r is whats kinda polarising to obv top of his range and bluffs.  Forget hero folding, just pay it off and know that some of the time we are beat, most of the time we are winning vs    terribad ------+ Mercier range of players
Posted by AMYBR

I wont always pot control on the flop, 100bb deep Ill prob cbet most of the time.
But, this deep I will mix it up a bit more. Wouldnt say either is wrong myself as long as your mixing it up.

Anyway, if we do cbet flop and he check raises I wouldnt be delighted myself....whats next?.
Id have to continue carefully. Obviously we are still beating a lot of his hands, but our hand wont improve most of the time and we could be behind as it is.

AMYBR

Then we are behind and going broke vs set or A's no big change.  Other than pot is now bigger and we get stacks in easier on later street.  Sure we are going to be behind some of the time, but far from most of the time.

If you hadnt lost this hand I doubt you'd be so glass is half empty

UL

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

Then we are behind and going broke vs set or A's no big change.  Other than pot is now bigger and we get stacks in easier on later street.  Sure we are going to be behind some of the time, but far from most of the time. If you hadnt lost this hand I doubt you'd be so glass is half empty UL
Posted by AMYBR

Im not happy at all playing for stacks with kk here.
If all the money does go allin by the river and I still have just the overpair, Im rarely ahead.

100bb I will be delighted to get all the money in....but stack sizes changes situation a lot from my perspective.
Results in this hand are irrelevant to me.

AMYBR

Generally true, but checking flop makes very little sense resulting in a bit of a mess on river following having stone cold nuts @ turn

We let a card come off for free HU with overpair on dry flop.

We turn the nuts, but our bet is now less than half what it ought to be after passive flop line.

River is ugly.

Just say he had A's.  How much value would we lose?

Why are we playing this hand so scared?

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

Generally true, but checking flop makes very little sense resulting in a bit of a mess on river following having stone cold nuts @ turn We let a card come off for free HU with overpair on dry flop. We turn the nuts, but our bet is now less than half what it ought to be after passive flop line. River is ugly. Just say he had A's.  How much value would we lose? Why are we playing this hand so scared?
Posted by AMYBR

That we turn the nuts isnt really relevant because its only one possible outcome.
There are many turns that checking flop will save us money on.

Giving him one hand like aa is a bit silly too I think. But if he had AA we made a good play on the flop because we checked behind when we were behind

rancid

bet flop 100% as u 3 bet
checking flop just looks like you have a hand, I mean why would you 3 bet bluff and then check flop


call river, wouldn't be surprised to see lower set's - even though oppo c/c on turn is leaning towards draws

btw oppo never has AA here, surely pre flop it's a 4bet unless dynamic between you states otherwise - gonna see a 4 bet pre w/AA this deep like 99% of the time

AMYBR

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep : That we turn the nuts isnt really relevant because its only one possible outcome. There are many turns that checking flop will save us money on. Giving him one hand like aa is a bit silly too I think. But if he had AA we made a good play on the flop because we checked behind when we were behind
Posted by Spad3s

Assuming were behind on the flop ftw.

Wasnt giving one hand, however only beaten by two on river.

I think the result is colouring your perspective.  May as well have flatted pre and checked behind every street with this mentality.

Am out.

LnarinOO

i dont mind checking back flop this deep, i think i prefer this line tbh

the reasons why i think i prefer it..

*we are playing very deep and dont think we will get 3 streets from worse often enough. 

*dont really need to protect vs UTG raise calling range.. (only to an ace)

*when we only think we can get two streets of value, a good veiw i have is that when the board is dry vs their range we should get the last 2 streets for value. providing were not scared of to many turn and dont need to protect this often allows us to get value from alot worse hands. if the board is wet and draw heavy we should go for the 1st two streets for value.

in this hand the flop is dry vs a standard UTG calling range, as i mentioned i like the check back for the reasons above, gin on the turn so clear value bet... and on the river i puke wen i get raised cos we have to value bet.. he's only reppin JQ cant see him having anythin else apart from air but how often are we gonna expect him to take this line with air..?? not very often

the only thing i would look at is his player type and how he thinks about the game.. do i think he would call JQ on the turn having only invested $14...? 

actually both bad a good players would call turn i spose.. a thinkin player would call this with JQ as, obv he can win with the outs but also he's thinking mayb be 'well if a A does come, i get the lot' as AK aces and KK are in our 3bet range. also bluff outs with clubs.. as played i think i call if its a decent thinking player and fold if its a normaly TAG.. this may sound like jibberish cos as writing i have debates with myself but keep on writing haha

appologies if it dont make sense..!!

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

bet flop 100% as u 3 bet checking flop just looks like you have a hand, I mean why would you 3 bet bluff and then check flop call river, wouldn't be surprised to see lower set's - even though oppo c/c on turn is leaning towards draws btw oppo never has AA here, surely pre flop it's a 4bet unless dynamic between you states otherwise - gonna see a 4 bet pre w/AA this deep like 99% of the time
Posted by rancid

betting 100% of the time in a 3bet pot is a big leak.. it depends how well balanced u are, but depending on history and dynamics i would never be betting 100% in a 3bet pot.. especially this deep..

Spad3s

In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep:

i dont mind checking back flop this deep, i think i prefer this line tbh the reasons why i think i prefer it.. *we are playing very deep and dont think we will get 3 streets from worse often enough.  *dont really need to protect vs UTG raise calling range.. (only to an ace) *when we only think we can get two streets of value, a good veiw i have is that when the board is dry vs their range we should get the last 2 streets for value. providing were not scared of to many turn and dont need to protect this often allows us to get value from alot worse hands. if the board is wet and draw heavy we should go for the 1st two streets for value. in this hand the flop is dry vs a standard UTG calling range, as i mentioned i like the check back for the reasons above, gin on the turn so clear value bet... and on the river i puke wen i get raised cos we have to value bet.. he's only reppin JQ cant see him having anythin else apart from air but how often are we gonna expect him to take this line with air..?? not very often the only thing i would look at is his player type and how he thinks about the game.. do i think he would call JQ on the turn having only invested $14...?  actually both bad a good players would call turn i spose.. a thinkin player would call this with JQ as, obv he can win with the outs but also he's thinking mayb be 'well if a A does come, i get the lot' as AK aces and KK are in our 3bet range. also bluff outs with clubs.. as played i think i call if its a decent thinking player and fold if its a normaly TAG.. this may sound like jibberish cos as writing i have debates with myself but keep on writing haha appologies if it dont make sense..!!
Posted by LnarinOO

You seem to be on the same page as me.

I didnt really think too much about check on the flop, I think cbet and check both have their merits. Interesting that many would cbet 100 percent of the time here.

But was really wondering if river could be a fold, even though it looks like an obvious call.
I couldnt put him on a lower set too often, unlikely when he checked flop and turn. A lot of players wouldnt even raise with the lower set anyway, may feel only better will continue.
I couldnt see him raising with two pair because he would not see me continueing with any worse.
Would be a really odd bluff.

In the end I called reluctantly, feeling sure he had jq.
Kind of ruled out AA due to preflop play and check on flop and turn. But, he had AA.