If you think its a mistake not to cbet your gonna get a shock when you play against anyone competent because its ridiculously easy to take advantage of people who cbet here.
If i raise your cbet 100% of the time how many hands are you willing to stack off with?
BorinLoner....to answer the question. Do I think I had best hand on flop....more then likely.
But poker, for me at least is not as simple as betting evertyime its likely you may have the best hand. This deep my hand is very vulnerable, it rarely improves and he has many hands which are at least 50/50 against me and can improve. For example, if he has 9c, jc although my hand is best right now, he is 56 percent favourite to win the hand. If he has ac qc hes 46 percent. If he has jh, 9h hes 36 but imporotantly if he hits Im letft guessing a bit.
On top of that he could already have me beat with two pair or sets. So you see this is the exact kind of hand you want to pot control with. You are rarely getting stacks in unless your beat and an overpair is hardly a hand I want to put in 270 bb.
If he raises me with anything Im going to be guessing what he has. He could very easily get away with taking me off hand with air.
Logic of many people doesnt make sense to me but an interesting thread.
I think it's a mistake not to c-bet when we can be called by worse. Now, I'm not saying it's a massive problem to check behind, as we're likely to only get one street of value (maybe two) from anything we're beating anyway, but what do we want to do when the turn is a club or an Ace? Do we still get value from a bare Ten? Do we still get value from a flush draw if the turn is a blank? If you're check-raised you've got to ask yourself what he's doing that with and that's going to be alot of flush draws and J9, maybe JJ, as well as possible sets and an unlikely 8T.
I'm going to c-bet this flop and then whether I get it in is going to be dependent on my image and on what hands I think my opponent will expect me to have. If he thinks I'm super-tight, then I'm less enjoying getting it in on this flop, though I'd still probably get it in. If he has a set or it's a flip, then so be it. I wouldn't imagine that my opponents would see my c-bet as being super-strong so of course they're going to check-raise a fair amount.... but with KK, I'm beating that range.
The point is you can be called here by worse: Tens, possibly those straight and flush draws and maybe underpairs or an 8 can call. I'm not sure why the talk is exclusively of getting stacks in.
Offshoot, I'm sure you don't mean this, but your post seems to imply that you'd c-bet with bluffs but not strong made hands. There will be hands I don't c-bet but I don't think an overpair that I imagine to be good is one of those when I can see alot of hands that I can get value from. How exploitable are you going to be if you raise my c-bets 100% of the time?
Spad3s, I don't disagree that those hands are not brilliant for us but against his broader range I think a bet here is always going to be best. The only information we have is that they've called our pre-flop 3-bet and then checked the flop. Of course it's player dependent as to what hands are going to do that but against an unknown opponent I'm thinking mostly of hands like; AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, JJ, TT, 99 as well as possibly lower suited connectors and lower pairs. That's alot of hands. Only a few of them are we actually in bad shape against but many of them will put more money in now while they're behind.
Let me ask you another question or two; You check, the 3c hits on the turn and your opponent bets out. Are you just going to fold? If not, then you're giving a free card to a flush draw and then putting in money when you've gone behind. If you are folding, how easily are you being bluffed?
I assume you wouldn't fold but if you're willing to put money in after a third club has hit, then why not put it in before?
THeres too many points there. I dont think we should check all the time. Im just saying to check is by no means bad and to say were losing value by checking is not neccessarily true.
If you think its a mistake not to cbet your gonna get a shock when you play against anyone competent because its ridiculously easy to take advantage of people who cbet here. If i raise your cbet 100% of the time how many hands are you willing to stack off with? Posted by offshoot
This was one of the reason I changed my mind that checking flop here is ok. By checking flop we essentially take away the c/r move on the flop and can continue extracting two streets of value from worse.
I gotta say though to check or to c bet flop would depend on oppo's tendacies and how capable they are. Think it would also depend how often your 3 betting pre and dynamics between you. The more capabele they are of c/r with bluffs through to sets, the more I like checking flop.
plus, it's a intresting dilema where you hear so much that to 3 bet is to then c bet. Even though we pick up pots with c bets in 3 bet pots, where we 3 bet light :S Doesnt' our checking range on flop become very transparent unless we delay c bet till turn in 3 bet pots some of the time.
Too passive on flop and turn imo, Bet Bet Shove, Your pot control line sounds more like scared money to me! what was your plan for the hand, check it to death?
You cant expect UTG villain to have too much on this flop, seeing it was raise UTG/call, his range might look like QQ,JJ,AKo, AKs,1010,99,AA poss AQs,KQs, QJs so a few made hands but you have this range pretty crushed, so don't like to pot control here maybe a check to deceive my opponent is better line of thinking.
I would c bet flop here for value against his weaker part of his range, as he may call one street at least with ak, 99 etc
As played to the river, if you say he is decent then he should never have QJ here, but just as important on the flip side he would never expect you to have QJ, so he would happily jam his lower sets, top two etc for value thinking they're the nuts, esp since you check the flop and you do look like you are playing AK face up.
This thread is huge, dunno why either lol, You cant expect UTG villain to have too much on this flop, seeing it was raise UTG/call, his range might look like QQ,JJ,AKo, AKs,1010,99,AA poss AQs,KQs, QJs so a few made hands but you have this range pretty crushed, so don't like to pot control here maybe a check to deceive my opponent is better line of thinking. I would c bet flop here for value against his weaker part of his range, as he may call one street at least with ak, 99 etc As played to the river, if you say he is decent then he should never have QJ here, but just as important on the flip side he would never expect you to have QJ, so he would happily jam his lower sets, top two etc for value thinking they're the nuts, esp since you check the flop and you do look like you are playing AK face up. in this spot i call. Posted by WHOAMI196
Funny how divided people are on this. The point a lot of people seem to be missing is that its not always a case of checking is wrong and betting is right. Often either are correct options, each with their own merits. Still in this case, against a random unknown I personally prefer to check this flop most of the time. Its not that I play scared, its that I dont think this is a good spot to get stacks in with 270bb, so I have to slow it down somewhere, or I could face some decisions where Im guessing.
On river I did call the bet, but was one of those where I clicked fealing I should fold....prob should have folded I think. You may have a hard time seeing how he can have qj, but I have a hard time seeing how he can be betting there thinking he can get value out of a worse hand, without having me beat.
Feel like many people may be looking at this hand the same way they look at a 100bb pot..
Really like the answers Lnarin00 gave.
No offence to others in this thread who may well be big winners or w/e the advice of offshoot is always good quality although often short!
Its always only going to be a call at most, would need a decent sample size to know how often villian will raise rivers as a bluff, only real hand I can see him having that you beat is AK, 10's you would expect to lead turn, but then again maybe you'd expect AA to lead turn.
Villian played his hand slyly, maybe you've been overly aggressive in 3bet pots that hes saw previously, so he took a cautious line so he doesn't get into a tough spot oop?
Its not to bet or check flop that is divisive, it is the reasoning behind it. There are reasons to opt to check flop, but for pot control would be very close to the bottom of the list. Posted by AMYBR
This list sounds interesting. I can only guess you mean to be deceptive or keep worse hands in.
In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep : Funny how divided people are on this. The point a lot of people seem to be missing is that its not always a case of checking is wrong and betting is right. Often either are correct options, each with their own merits. Still in this case, against a random unknown I personally prefer to check this flop most of the time. Its not that I play scared, its that I dont think this is a good spot to get stacks in with 270bb, so I have to slow it down somewhere, or I could face some decisions where Im guessing. On river I did call the bet, but was one of those where I clicked fealing I should fold....prob should have folded I think. You may have a hard time seeing how he can have qj, but I have a hard time seeing how he can be betting there thinking he can get value out of a worse hand, without having me beat. Posted by Spad3s
its all about the player, you could write an entire essay on why you should/shouldn't do this n that,but its useless if payer dynamic is not thought of, sometimes you have to just give it to him because he bluffs so much, or on the other hand if he is tight then the post flop play becomes easier in 3-bet pots and you can fold.
So without any player detail everyone's shooting pointlessly in the dark, just because you paid off an oppo here does not mean you made a bad call initially, it only becomes bad when you pay him off time and time again, i.e not correct enough of the time to justify a call. It does get tricky vs unknowns though.
BTW you make plays because they are the most profitable so make you the most money not in fear of tough decisions. Sometimes c-betting flops will gain you more control in the hand as a villains likely moves are call/fold, esp on this board being pretty dry, you can then check the turn for pot control so when it comes to the river the villain has only one shot at making a play, making life easy. By checking the flop you are allowing the villain to take the lead on the turn(and river) and be aggressive making life harder if you are unsure where you are in the hand.
In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep : Guess you have been doing some thinking bud . Posted by Spad3s
No, personally I still cant given my playing style.. Mainly as my c-bet % is so high I expect to get called by ALOT worse on all streets, that being the point.
And as already pointed out, my mentality in hand would be fundamentaly different: being aiming to build a large pot rather than fearing to. I'm just happy to shoot for value being quite aware of my table image. So I do not see a point checking flop as pot control at all.
But yes looking at others opinions and different playing styles I guess we could find other reasons to check flop, but why bother when the capacity/potential to get called/raised by far worse is so high, when we have cultivated the appropriate image? Individuals with a lower cbet % likely lose value and are in danger of showing hand range face up. Question simply becomes which range of hands are we more often facing? The 2 made hands through streets that crush us plus a flush draw (which we can get some value from IP, esp when c/r'd on flop), or a wider range of hands that we comfortably build a pot against through streets.
The fact that oppo shows up with A's here is immaterial. I dont think hand should be looked at in isolation, should be looked at as how would play over a larger sample obv.
And for sure we want to have some variety in our play. But I must admit my variety would be to sometimes bet the flop when I would rather check, rather than check when I could bet. OK so I would be owned by Mr Shoot, but I would still rather have the initiative wrestled away from me than to hand it over on a plate.
In Response to Re: What to do? nl100 - 270bb deep : I guess Im glad you can now see reasons to check. Not sure what mentality you mean. Posted by Spad3s
A) Move on, dont dredge up an old post to try and score points. Awakening a thread after 3 weeks is obviously petty.
I think your attitude is really bad if I'm honest.
Dont post a hand if you dont want feedback from a variety of perspectives
Comments
If i raise your cbet 100% of the time how many hands are you willing to stack off with?
Do I think I had best hand on flop....more then likely.
But poker, for me at least is not as simple as betting evertyime its likely you may have the best hand. This deep my hand is very vulnerable, it rarely improves and he has many hands which are at least 50/50 against me and can improve.
For example, if he has 9c, jc although my hand is best right now, he is 56 percent favourite to win the hand.
If he has ac qc hes 46 percent.
If he has jh, 9h hes 36 but imporotantly if he hits Im letft guessing a bit.
On top of that he could already have me beat with two pair or sets. So you see this is the exact kind of hand you want to pot control with. You are rarely getting stacks in unless your beat and an overpair is hardly a hand I want to put in 270 bb.
If he raises me with anything Im going to be guessing what he has. He could very easily get away with taking me off hand with air.
Logic of many people doesnt make sense to me but an interesting thread.
I think it's a mistake not to c-bet when we can be called by worse. Now, I'm not saying it's a massive problem to check behind, as we're likely to only get one street of value (maybe two) from anything we're beating anyway, but what do we want to do when the turn is a club or an Ace? Do we still get value from a bare Ten? Do we still get value from a flush draw if the turn is a blank? If you're check-raised you've got to ask yourself what he's doing that with and that's going to be alot of flush draws and J9, maybe JJ, as well as possible sets and an unlikely 8T.
I'm going to c-bet this flop and then whether I get it in is going to be dependent on my image and on what hands I think my opponent will expect me to have. If he thinks I'm super-tight, then I'm less enjoying getting it in on this flop, though I'd still probably get it in. If he has a set or it's a flip, then so be it. I wouldn't imagine that my opponents would see my c-bet as being super-strong so of course they're going to check-raise a fair amount.... but with KK, I'm beating that range.
The point is you can be called here by worse: Tens, possibly those straight and flush draws and maybe underpairs or an 8 can call. I'm not sure why the talk is exclusively of getting stacks in.
Offshoot, I'm sure you don't mean this, but your post seems to imply that you'd c-bet with bluffs but not strong made hands. There will be hands I don't c-bet but I don't think an overpair that I imagine to be good is one of those when I can see alot of hands that I can get value from. How exploitable are you going to be if you raise my c-bets 100% of the time?
Spad3s, I don't disagree that those hands are not brilliant for us but against his broader range I think a bet here is always going to be best. The only information we have is that they've called our pre-flop 3-bet and then checked the flop. Of course it's player dependent as to what hands are going to do that but against an unknown opponent I'm thinking mostly of hands like; AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, JJ, TT, 99 as well as possibly lower suited connectors and lower pairs. That's alot of hands. Only a few of them are we actually in bad shape against but many of them will put more money in now while they're behind.
Let me ask you another question or two; You check, the 3c hits on the turn and your opponent bets out. Are you just going to fold? If not, then you're giving a free card to a flush draw and then putting in money when you've gone behind. If you are folding, how easily are you being bluffed?
I assume you wouldn't fold but if you're willing to put money in after a third club has hit, then why not put it in before?
By checking flop we essentially take away the c/r move on the flop and can continue extracting two streets of value from worse.
I gotta say though to check or to c bet flop would depend on oppo's tendacies and how capable they are.
Think it would also depend how often your 3 betting pre and dynamics between you.
The more capabele they are of c/r with bluffs through to sets, the more I like checking flop.
plus, it's a intresting dilema where you hear so much that to 3 bet is to then c bet.
Even though we pick up pots with c bets in 3 bet pots, where we 3 bet light :S
Doesnt' our checking range on flop become very transparent unless we delay c bet till turn in 3 bet pots some of the time.
Funny how divided people are on this.
The point a lot of people seem to be missing is that its not always a case of checking is wrong and betting is right. Often either are correct options, each with their own merits.
Still in this case, against a random unknown I personally prefer to check this flop most of the time. Its not that I play scared, its that I dont think this is a good spot to get stacks in with 270bb, so I have to slow it down somewhere, or I could face some decisions where Im guessing.
On river I did call the bet, but was one of those where I clicked fealing I should fold....prob should have folded I think. You may have a hard time seeing how he can have qj, but I have a hard time seeing how he can be betting there thinking he can get value out of a worse hand, without having me beat.
There are reasons to opt to check flop, but for pot control would be very close to the bottom of the list.
Guess you have been doing some thinking bud
And as already pointed out, my mentality in hand would be fundamentaly different: being aiming to build a large pot rather than fearing to. I'm just happy to shoot for value being quite aware of my table image. So I do not see a point checking flop as pot control at all.
But yes looking at others opinions and different playing styles I guess we could find other reasons to check flop, but why bother when the capacity/potential to get called/raised by far worse is so high, when we have cultivated the appropriate image? Individuals with a lower cbet % likely lose value and are in danger of showing hand range face up. Question simply becomes which range of hands are we more often facing? The 2 made hands through streets that crush us plus a flush draw (which we can get some value from IP, esp when c/r'd on flop), or a wider range of hands that we comfortably build a pot against through streets.
The fact that oppo shows up with A's here is immaterial. I dont think hand should be looked at in isolation, should be looked at as how would play over a larger sample obv.
Odd mentality for posting a hand......
I guess Im glad you can now see reasons to check.
Not sure what mentality you mean.
Dont post a hand if you dont want feedback from a variety of perspectives