Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show

VespaPX

Morning all,

After watching some of last night's show and James's comments about rasie sizing pre-flop i would like to discuss a couple of things:

James stated that 3x was too big and should be around 2.1 or 2.2x

Firstly if you are multi-tabling how would you have time to calculate this and then manually input it in to each table?

Secondly i think on Sky the 2x button is actually 3x ?
e.g.
With blinds 50/100 if you hit the 2x button it actually raises to 300 , which is 3x the BB.

Lastly i think the reason players 3x is that 2x is seen as a weak raise and more likely to get more callers and 3 bets, and stated many times on here you don't want a multiway pot with AA.

Thoughts please
Cheers
Mick

The_Don90

I agree i think new buttons need to come into play. If you can choose what ur auto pick buttons are on sky would make life easier. Different players would have different auto bet amounts both post and pre flop.

However i disagree that you cant count the amount quickly. I mean a happy medium would be a 2.5x which should also be acceptable. If your confused on this one, count the BB times it by 2 and value of SB thats your amount. So if blinds are 100/200 it would be 500 (200x2 = 400 +100 = 500) quick way i use. Although ive used a very basic blind level to show this.

aussie09

can't wait for vespa's response donald

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

I agree i think new buttons need to come into play. If you can choose what ur auto pick buttons are on sky would make life easier. Different players would have different auto bet amounts both post and pre flop. However i disagree that you cant count the amount quickly. I mean a happy medium would be a 2.5x which should also be acceptable. If your confused on this one, count the BB times it by 2 and value of SB thats your amount. So if blinds are 100/200 it would be 500 (200x2 = 400 +100 = 500) quick way i use. Although ive used a very basic blind level to show this.
Posted by The_Don90

Thanks for reply Don.
Totally agree with the auto pick buttons, hopefully they'll be included in the new software.
Cheers

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

can't wait for vespa's response donald
Posted by aussie09

Constructive thanks

Slykllist

Mid stages of a tournament, 2.1 / 2.2x has become accepted as the new opening bet size.  The arguement being that as blinds get bigger in relation to stacks this helps to control the size of the pot (particularly as more people 3, 4, 5 bet nowdays) and that a 2.2x raise will give you exactly the same information as a 3x.

SolarCarro

Agree about the buttons and the trouble typing in amounts

2.1x - 2.5x is considered the 2012 norm mainly because players raise lighter than they used to and the norm is to get 3 bet later on so by raising smaller you can 4 bet smaller and if you are 4 betting with a marginal hand you still have the equity to fold if you are 5 bet all in.

Of course the down side is, a smaller raise may attract more weaker hands into the pot or show perceived weakness and if you are raising 2.1x with small suited connectors etc then you may well have to fold later on.

I think in better standard games the 2.1x raise is a must but try this on a 2.25 Bounty Hunter and you just attract 5 callers! Also in better standard games you will see more pots taken down with increased pre-flop aggression.

Obv James is commenting on the better standard Sky tournaments so in my opinion 2.1x is standard (although is their really a standard raise? Who decided what is standard?) I think 2.1x is a must in later stages for the exact reasons stated above, min 3 bet is then 4x so if you want to 4 bet it allows some pot control.

Dave

SolarCarro

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

Mid stages of a tournament, 2.1 / 2.2x has become accepted as the new opening bet size.  The arguement being that as blinds get bigger in relation to stacks this helps to control the size of the pot (particularly as more people 3, 4, 5 bet nowdays) and that a 2.2x raise will give you exactly the same information as a 3x.
Posted by Slykllist

THIS ^^^^^^^^^

Beat me to it!!

VespaPX

Thanks Dave & Si
Very nice replies
Cheers
Mick

DOHHHHHHH

When the action is on you, if you just click raise it will automatically min raise for you. 

There's no difference between a 2x and a 2.2x.

aussie09

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show : Constructive thanks
Posted by VespaPX

sorry i was wrong.  i thought your point was that as you were multitabling you didn't have enough time per table to calculate the bet size and not (as i thought donald was inferring) that you were not capable of doing the maths.

my bad

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

When the action is on you, if you just click raise it will automatically min raise for you.  There's no difference between a 2x and a 2.2x.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I disagree.. I think people defend the BB alot more when you min raise as opposed 2.2-2.4x raise.

pr1nnyraid

Also Sky should allow you to type in the amount you want to raise to IN TOTAL, regardless of what you have put in on that street. FOR EXAMPLE- if i am in the BB for 150, & btn raises to 325, i might want to 3bet to 795, i dont want to have to take that figure and subtract my 150 from it, then type in 645 and raise. It should just be type 795 and press Enter.

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show : sorry i was wrong.  i thought your point was that as you were multitabling you didn't have enough time per table to calculate the bet size and not (as i thought donald was inferring) that you were not capable of doing the maths. my bad
Posted by aussie09

Its cool....i'm just too lazy to type in the amounts!

TheDart

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show : I disagree.. I think people defend the BB alot more when you min raise as opposed 2.2-2.4x raise.
Posted by pr1nnyraid

+1 to Dohhhhhhh's observation.

Though I also think you make a valid point, I guess it comes to standard of play and a difference between online and live.

Min raising tends to be frowned on by many people, but really what difference does a x2 to an x2.1 or x2.2 bet make.

If you are going to defend, speculate or gamble I can't see it makes a big difference, particularly pre flop.

EDIT:

Solar and Slykllist give great explanations as to the 'logic' behind the x2.1 bets and x2.2 bets and I know it's the 'in way' of playing, but it reminds me of Ronaldo when he first came on the scene....a lot of fancy tricks but sometimes lacking the end product!

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show : I disagree.. I think people defend the BB alot more when you min raise as opposed 2.2-2.4x raise.
Posted by pr1nnyraid

Very late in a tournament (when blinds are 2000/4000+) i think a min raise is the most powerful weapon in anyones armoury.

The best i've seen was blinds where 2500/5000 on a tourny on other site. 9 handed MP player opens to 20,000 from a 50,000 stack and folded to a short 30,000 TOTAL shove.

TheDart

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show : Very late in a tournament (when blinds are 2000/4000+) i think a min raise is the most powerful weapon in anyones armoury. The best i've seen was blinds where 2500/5000 on a tourny on other site. 9 handed MP player opens to 20,000 from a 50,000 stack and folded to a short 30,000 TOTAL shove.
Posted by The_Don90

Another good point, it's all relative to levels and stages in tournaments.

liamboi11

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show : Very late in a tournament (when blinds are 2000/4000+) i think a min raise is the most powerful weapon in anyones armoury. The best i've seen was blinds where 2500/5000 on a tourny on other site. 9 handed MP player opens to 20,000 from a 50,000 stack and folded to a short 30,000 TOTAL shove.
Posted by The_Don90

he was obv an inexperienced player or just bad lol

Jeronimo7

Think min-raising is seen as weak/strong the same as overbetting a pot. Play live more than here, but im not folding my big blind to a min-raise EVER. If i have a whole table of callers then im priced in, if someone has min-raised on the button im assuming its a weak attempt at a steal. If i have 100 already in and im asked for another 100 to see a flop i am personally ALWAYS going to see the flop on the off-chance i hit the nuts. Priced in as it were. Unless im massive deep in a tournie and just my BB is a big blow to my stack. Then ill fold.

However if i have 100 in and im asked for another 150/200, that does, for some reason, mean im folding if i dont have the goods. Rather odd really.

Probobly just cus im a massive donknoobfish.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Raise sizing according to James Hartigan from last nights show:

Think min-raising is seen as weak/strong the same as overbetting a pot. Play live more than here, but im not folding my big blind to a min-raise EVER. If i have a whole table of callers then im priced in, if someone has min-raised on the button im assuming its a weak attempt at a steal. If i have 100 already in and im asked for another 100 to see a flop i am personally ALWAYS going to see the flop on the off-chance i hit the nuts. Priced in as it were. Unless im massive deep in a tournie and just my BB is a big blow to my stack. Then ill fold. However if i have 100 in and im asked for another 150/200, that does, for some reason, mean im folding if i dont have the goods. Rather odd really. Probobly just cus im a massive donknoobfish.
Posted by Jeronimo7

Leak-finder, found

FINS

Limp ftw..