Horrid spot

Batkin88

I find myself putting players on hands and still calling them down when there hands go ahead.
Ok player hasn't 3 bet any hands so far, and shows ultra stregth here for the first time. I immediately put him on AA KK QQ JJ or maybe AK . The flop comes and I instantly put myself behind because of the size of his c-bet, I would expect aces or kings to bet bigger to find out where they are.
Can I fold this flop??? I really want to!
For what it is worth, this hand isn't straight forward and holds a suprise at the end!

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
PokerSmith	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£4.61
joey690	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£11.26
Hurley00	Sit out
	Your hole cards	K K
trixie06	Fold
Lady666	Fold
Batkin88	Raise		£0.40	£0.55	£17.33
PokerSmith	Call		£0.35	£0.90	£4.26
joey690	Raise		£1.20	£2.10	£10.06
Batkin88	Call		£0.90	£3.00	£16.43
PokerSmith	Fold
Flop
		Q Q J
joey690	Bet		£1.10	£4.10	£8.96
Batkin88

rancid

by not 4 betting pre just call flop

pr1nnyraid

He wont have AK much because you have kings. But you should be 4betting pre imo and looking to get it in on any flop. Why flat if you think he's never gonna 3b light? were you hoping for a 7 2 3 flop and get it in without a sweat.. 

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

He wont have AK much because you have kings. But you should be 4betting pre imo and looking to get it in on any flop. Why flat if you think he's never gonna 3b light? were you hoping for a 7 2 3 flop and get it in without a sweat.. 
Posted by pr1nnyraid

Well yes I was looking for a nicer flop, Q and J I have put in his range with sets, so I am now only beating AK on the flop or splitting KK.
I also don't like 4 betting to get it in pre, prefer playing the streets.

splashies

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

In Response to Re: Horrid spot : Well yes I was looking for a nicer flop, Q and J I have put in his range with sets, so I am now only beating AK on the flop or splitting KK. I also don't like 4 betting to get it in pre, prefer playing the streets.
Posted by Batkin88

What??

I think your tournament mindset is coming to the forefront here. You're treating this hand like level 1 in a tournament and dont want to risk your tournament life.

This is cash and if you can get KK in pre, then do it everyday of the week and be happy about it.

As played call flop.

WHOAMI196

:S you should be happy to get KK all in pre flop all day long, and if you do bump into AA you can still win; albeit 80% dog.

the line you have taken pre is bad imho vs a tight range, the board texture might shut the action down and therefore get no value from your KK. Vs a aggressive serial 3-bettor you can trap him but not a tight person, unless the tight person is good and then it gets a little more complicated , but since this is nl10 its best to keep things simple.

You can never fold this flop after one bet, so call flop you are going to be good most of the time, BUT if you are concerned at this point that you might be behind because you have a feel/read on this guy then just re-evaluate on the turn and decide what to do, if he goes all-in, or bets pot you can possibly fold, if he bets small you might have to sigh call, but whatever you do do not fold on the flop!

TommyD

While this is the player's first 3bet to your knowledge, you are the button and knowing you, you'll be opening a fair amount from there.  I think their 3bet range BB v Button is a lot bigger than you have it as in your OP.  I'm 4betting pre to get it in.

As played call on the flop now and reassess on the turn.  They are leading with plenty of air, under pairs and value hands such as AJ, KJ which we beat.  I don't see too much value in raising the flop however.

Batkin88

Ok right, I am still learning cash so KK all in pre is good lol (My reasoning behind not getting it in pre is because he is only coming back over the top with QQ KK or AA so it is 50/50
Anyway the turn comes and this happens, bear in mind I think I am behind here is it ok to check it back with then intention of betting the river if he checks it to me or calling a small bet if it doesn't look to fishy?

The river comes and he bets into me, the size looks like he missed value on the turn and was betting right at the top of his value betting amount for max value. Now can I fold?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
PokerSmith	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£4.61
joey690	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£11.26
Hurley00	Sit out
	Your hole cards	K K
trixie06	Fold
Lady666	Fold
Batkin88	Raise		£0.40	£0.55	£17.33
PokerSmith	Call		£0.35	£0.90	£4.26
joey690	Raise		£1.20	£2.10	£10.06
Batkin88	Call		£0.90	£3.00	£16.43
PokerSmith	Fold
Flop
		Q Q J
joey690	Bet		£1.10	£4.10	£8.96
Batkin88	Call		£1.10	£5.20	£15.33
Turn
		2
joey690	Check
Batkin88	Check
River
		8
joey690	Bet		£3.50	£8.70	£5.46
Batkin88 ?

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

While this is the player's first 3bet to your knowledge, you are the button and knowing you, you'll be opening a fair amount from there.  I think their 3bet range BB v Button is a lot bigger than you have it as in your OP.  I'm 4betting pre to get it in. As played call on the flop now and reassess on the turn.  They are leading with plenty of air, under pairs and value hands such as AJ, KJ which we beat.  I don't see too much value in raising the flop however.
Posted by TommyD

Could you maybe r / f the flop. Or do you think he never barrels?

WHOAMI196

snap call, take notes, next hand..

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:
Ok right, I am still learning cash so KK all in pre is good lol (My reasoning behind not getting it in pre is because he is only coming back over the top with QQ KK or AA so it is 50/50

You should maybe look at this way of thinking. Like TommyD said his range isn't that tight.

You want to get as much of their stack in pre, so that they will stack off lighter postflop. Do you think he will fold 99-JJ pre flop to a small 4b?? Probably not. However if you don't 4b you are allowing him to make a fold post flop with these hands.

You have to give a bad opponent the chance to make mistakes, by just calling you are taking away another decision from him- you are pot controlling on his behalf. The deception gained isnt as valuable as the fact he will stack off alot lighter the more he has invested pre.

donkeyplop

Call he had the jack.

rancid

shove for value )

maybe snap

TommyD

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

In Response to Re: Horrid spot : Could you maybe r / f the flop. Or do you think he never barrels?
Posted by pr1nnyraid

I'm not sure I like r/f on the flop.  We have a good value hand so by r/f we want him to have a huge amount of his range to just call, we're not turning this into a bluff so we want a call.  To fit this criteria we need him to be calling with lots of jacks, draws (including AK as well as KT) and if he is the player to do so lots of spanners he is turning his flop lead into a float.  There are some Jx hands in his range but we have blockers to the draw hand combinations he can have as well as KJ and from the OP they don't seem to be that creative.  We probably fold out all under pairs by raising (tens being the only question mark if they get stubborn).

I think r/f is just folding out too much, we've played it passive by flatting the 3bet and as such have under repped our hand.  They may barrel with air on turn and/or river, it's an ok board to barrell after making a 3bet.  I think I'm firmly behind calling after our action preflop.

Also as played Im snapping the river.

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

In Response to Re: Horrid spot : I'm not sure I like r/f on the flop.  We have a good value hand so by r/f we want him to have a huge amount of his range to just call, we're not turning this into a bluff so we want a call.  To fit this criteria we need him to be calling with lots of jacks, draws (including AK as well as KT) and if he is the player to do so lots of spanners he is turning his flop lead into a float.  There are some Jx hands in his range but we have blockers to the draw hand combinations he can have as well as KJ and from the OP they don't seem to be that creative.  We probably fold out all under pairs by raising (tens being the only question mark if they get stubborn). I think r/f is just folding out too much, we've played it passive by flatting the 3bet and as such have under repped our hand.  They may barrel with air on turn and/or river, it's an ok board to barrell after making a 3bet.  I think I'm firmly behind calling after our action preflop. Also as played Im snapping the river.
Posted by TommyD

So are you suggesting calling off turn and river if they barrel? He is probly only going to barrell his bluffs and Q's on 3 streets, calling off against a polarised range here is -EV when you take into account his bluff frequency.

Also with regard to 'under reppping' our hand, at what point is it advisable to stop under repping it. I mean you end up just levelling yourself into bad calls. Reason i think r/f is a viable play is because it's less exploitable.
-If he jams flop back we can make the ez fold
- If he just calls and wants to put money in on later streets we know he has it a huge %
-If he just calls and looks to check it down we can then probly check it down or re evaluate river to see if we can squeze some thin value.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

In Response to Re: Horrid spot : So are you suggesting calling off turn and river if they barrel? He is probly only going to barrell his bluffs and Q's on 3 streets, calling off against a polarised range here is -EV when you take into account his bluff frequency. Also with regard to 'under reppping' our hand, at what point is it advisable to stop under repping it. I mean you end up just levelling yourself into bad calls. Reason i think r/f is a viable play is because it's less exploitable. -If he jams flop back we can make the ez fold - If he just calls and wants to put money in on later streets we know he has it a huge % -If he just calls and looks to check it down we can then probly check it down or re evaluate river to see if we can squeze some thin value.
Posted by pr1nnyraid

That's where the skill comes in.  There are some players on the site I snap call all the way down and expect to be good most of the time, others I barely want to call the first one.  In a vacuum against an unknown I'm sticking by my initial reaction to call the flop to reassess.  As played they fire two streets and I'm more than happy enough to call both against an unknown.

Regarding under repping, we're pretty much stuck doing this all the way down in this spot.  By flatting the 3bet from the button we have taken away the frequency of us having the very top of our range unless we never 4bet.  However if we start raising on this board we are over repping (Qx+) and therefore turning our hand into a bluff.

EDIT

If we do start raising we could be doing it as a merge, trying to represent a polarised range of Q+ or air while actually having something in the middle.  In this we may get calls from anything between pocket tens and pocket aces (against a polarised range these would effectively be the same hand).  I would only do this on the river really, it's also pretty tricky stuff and I'm sure much better players than me could explain it in a much more comprehensive manner.

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

In Response to Re: Horrid spot : That's where the skill comes in.  There are some players on the site I snap call all the way down and expect to be good most of the time, others I barely want to call the first one.  In a vacuum against an unknown I'm sticking by my initial reaction to call the flop to reassess.  As played they fire two streets and I'm more than happy enough to call both against an unknown. Regarding under repping, we're pretty much stuck doing this all the way down in this spot.  By flatting the 3bet from the button we have taken away the frequency of us having the very top of our range unless we never 4bet.  However if we start raising on this board we are over repping (Qx+) and therefore turning our hand into a bluff.
Posted by TommyD

I guess what i'm saying is you can raise here for value and it's not turning our hand into a bluff imo.. Being that in all likelihood this level of player will call with the J and worse + draws.

If you call and re-assess if he fires again, what exactly are you re-assessing?? You are in exaclty the same spot if he leads turn or river but the pot is bigger.

Raising the flop makes it very hard for him to get any value on later streets if he's ahead, although you sacrifice shutting out all his bluffs (of which there aren't many imo). Thats why i advocate it.

For example - It's the same concept of raising with KK from the BB when somebody has limp called MP and the flop coming A 9 3. Now do you lead knowing you are rarely getting called by worse. Or do you just check and risk being exploited. I'd tend to just lead anyway as it makes the hand more easily playable, by checking we are putting ourselves in spots on later streets that might cause us to make more costly mistakes.
That's another reason in batkins hand i prefer to raise flop as we simply make it impossible to make a big mistake for our stack down the streets.

Maybe this is over thinking it i don't know, your the one whos rich from poker

donkeyplop

Yes too much thinking imo!

On the river with the amount he has bet surely it's an easy call?

TommyD

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

In Response to Re: Horrid spot : I guess what i'm saying is you can raise here for value and it's not turning our hand into a bluff imo.. Being that in all likelihood this level of player will call with the J and worse + draws. If you call and re-assess if he fires again, what exactly are you re-assessing?? You are in exaclty the same spot if he leads turn or river but the pot is bigger. Raising the flop makes it very hard for him to get any value on later streets if he's ahead, although you sacrifice shutting out all his bluffs (of which there aren't many imo). Thats why i advocate it. For example - It's the same concept of raising with KK from the BB when somebody has limp called MP and the flop coming A 9 3. Now do you lead knowing you are rarely getting called by worse. Or do you just check and risk being exploited. I'd tend to just lead anyway as it makes the hand more easily playable, by checking we are putting ourselves in spots on later streets that might cause us to make more costly mistakes. That's another reason in batkins hand i prefer to raise flop as we simply make it impossible to make a big mistake for our stack down the streets. Maybe this is over thinking it i don't know, your the one whos rich from poker
Posted by pr1nnyraid

Make sure you check out my edit above, I think there was a crossover.

We are assessing what turn card comes in (Is it a scare card for me/him/both ranges?  Does it complete a draw?  Does it create a draw?  Is it a total brick?) and how he reacts to it (does he bet?  What is his sizing?  How those this match up to our history?)

I've got tons more on this hand to say but I've got the builders in at the moment.  Enjoying this one.

rancid

sound just like raising flop for info and this can be exploited
I am sure raising folds out all hands you get value from

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Horrid spot:

sound just like raising flop for info and this can be exploited I am sure raising folds out all hands you get value from
Posted by rancid

My point being anyone who wants to exploit this is going to have to risk 100BB's and would be a tough spot to exploit as they don't know we're raise folding, also as Tommy says if we are merging the hands we raise the flop here with it is even less exploitable.. Say we do raise with Overpairs as well as Q's and OESD's, then a bluff reship by them is going to be profitable for us, regardless of whether we fold some of the time.
just seen your edit Tommy that is an overlap and important with regard to my prior response..