In Response to Re: Horrid spot : My point being anyone who wants to exploit this is going to have to risk 100BB's and would be a tough spot to exploit as they don't know we're raise folding, also as Tommy says if we are merging the hands we raise the flop here with it is even less exploitable.. Say we do raise with Overpairs as well as Q's and OESD's, then a bluff reship by them is going to be profitable for us, regardless of whether we fold some of the time. just seen your edit Tommy that is an overlap and important with regard to my prior response.. Posted by pr1nnyraid
Well yeah we would have to merge everything from nuts to bluff, how does this effect getting paid with top of our range here - intresting theory
In Response to Re: Horrid spot : Well yeah we would have to merge everything from nuts to bluff, how does this effect getting paid with top of our range here - intresting theory Posted by rancid
We shouldn't have any pure bluffs here imo. how i'd play it in an ideal world against a strong player is -fold my air or underpairs and any J worse than A J. would consider folding oesd's for reverse implied odds Call- basically never - some Q's depending on opponent raise- all overpairs, AJ, Q's.
If he jams flop i call with a Q and lay the rest. If he just calls and puts any more money in i will prob fold all but Q's. If he calls and checks turn and riv i will v/bet overpairs and Q's.
This is obv a basic way of looking at it and there are many other nuances involved. But as a rule of thumb i think this is the best way of playing this spot.
In Response to Re: Horrid spot : We shouldn't have any pure bluffs here imo. how i'd play it in an ideal world against a strong player is -fold my air or underpairs and any J worse than A J. would consider folding oesd's for reverse implied odds Call- basically never - some Q's depending on opponent raise- all overpairs, AJ, Q's. If he jams flop i call with a Q and lay the rest. If he just calls and puts any more money in i will prob fold all but Q's. If he calls and checks turn and riv i will v/bet overpairs and Q's. This is obv a basic way of looking at it and there are many other nuances involved. But as a rule of thumb i think this is the best way of playing this spot. Posted by pr1nnyraid
Ok, the only problem I have with this and maybe you can set me straight.
If we merge and raise flop then what are we looking to get paid by. Meaning what does oppo put us on in order for oppo to pay us off.
Surely oppo has to put us on a wider range that what you suggest that would include bluffs. Are you suggesting we merge just the top-middle of our range that still beats oppos middle range.
What hands call our raise that we beat, draws, Jx.
Essentially when we raise flop what hands can we hold that oppo still thinks they beat. For this reason surely we would have to merge in raising with bottom of our range such as draws/bluffs some of the time so oppo thinks they can still be good here.
Ok I wanted to fold the flop on the basis that he doesnt 3 bet pre with anything but a made hand. e.g JJ QQ KK AA and on that flop I am losing to all but one, which I have. This surely makes it a fold?? I understand calling the flop and looking to get it in against an unknown, but I had sat with this player for hours and he was more of a nit than DP use to be! I really wanted to fold every street but wasn't good enough to find it, this is exactly the same as last night when I had AK and flop came out 3 7 K and I nearly folded flop only for him to turn over aces. My kings in theis hand are bluff catchers as played, so getting it in pre would make sense and save me all of this thinking.
I think there is an implication that young Miss Bats might be creative and float to take away judging by that check. Not awful but not what I would do in general.
In Response to Re: Horrid spot : Ok, the only problem I have with this and maybe you can set me straight. If we merge and raise flop then what are we looking to get paid by. Meaning what does oppo put us on in order for oppo to pay us off. Surely oppo has to put us on a wider range that what you suggest that would include bluffs. Are you suggesting we merge just the top-middle of our range that still beats oppos middle range. What hands call our raise that we beat, draws, Jx. Essentially when we raise flop what hands can we hold that oppo still thinks they beat. For this reason surely we would have to merge in raising with bottom of our range such as draws/bluffs some of the time so oppo thinks they can still be good here. Posted by rancid
Why do you want to have bluffs in your range when you raise vs oppo's tight 3b range? If your perceived range has bluffs, but your actual range has value only, then that's how you win money. Of course you don't want to actually hold your perceived range you just want to be aware of it. If you play to your perceived range then you are easy to play against, you have to skew it in these spots to get the better of oppo. I see it like this - assuming this is a thinking player - and most importantly he HAS to have a tight 3bet range.
Oppo thinks we are polarised to nut / air hands when we raise flop. Therefore he thinks he can continue with his mid strength hands, and just c/c to bluff catch and pot control. Given that oppo's entire range (excluding JJ or any Q) has showdown value against our air, he has no need to rebluff this spot. If he decides we are bluffing, surely he should be just calling and keeping the bluffs in our range. Therefore if he calls the flop raise, he can only put more money in with a set, and will only cc/c - bluff catch with the rest of his range. So our raise on flop gives the illusion of polarising our range, the result being that it restricts the villains play on later streets and makes his hand extremely transparent.
In Response to Re: Horrid spot : Why do you want to have bluffs in your range when you raise vs oppo's tight 3b range? If your perceived range has bluffs, but your actual range has value only, then that's how you win money. Of course you don't want to actually hold your perceived range you just want to be aware of it. If you play to your perceived range then you are easy to play against, you have to skew it in these spots to get the better of oppo. I see it like this - assuming this is a thinking player - and most importantly he HAS to have a tight 3bet range. Oppo thinks we are polarised to nut / air hands when we raise flop. Therefore he thinks he can continue with his mid strength hands, and just c/c to bluff catch and pot control. Given that oppo's entire range (excluding JJ or any Q) has showdown value against our air, he has no need to rebluff this spot. If he decides we are bluffing, surely he should be just calling and keeping the bluffs in our range. Therefore if he calls the flop raise, he can only put more money in with a set, and will only cc/c - bluff catch with the rest of his range. So our raise on flop gives the illusion of polarising our range, the result being that it restricts the villains play on later streets and makes his hand extremely transparent. Posted by pr1nnyraid
Love the way the this post reads, all good
but
regarding the highlighted bit
my thinking is how we do create a perceived range if we don't ever raise with air/draws sometimes is it enough here to r/f with KK to create a perceived range that includes draws/bluffs seems to be a total flaw if we do not have a pereived range that includes air/draws
"o this guy always turns over mid-top of range, never seem oppo bluff or semi bluff in these spots"
In Response to Re: Horrid spot : I think there is an implication that young Miss Bats might be creative and float to take away judging by that check. Not awful but not what I would do in general. Posted by TommyD
In Response to Re: Horrid spot : Love the way the this post reads, all good but regarding the highlighted bit my thinking is how we do create a perceived range if we don't ever raise with air/draws sometimes is it enough here to r/f with KK to create a perceived range that includes draws/bluffs seems to be a total flaw if we do not have a pereived range that includes air/draws "o this guy always turns over mid-top of range, never seem oppo bluff or semi bluff in these spots" = ez fold u see what I am trying to put across Posted by rancid
Yeah i understand what you are saying. Who's to say you can't adjust though?? adapt and survive.. It's going to take a good oppo and alot of volume for this to be noticed This is where the levelling starts. Oppo starts to realise (QUOTE)"o this guy always turns over mid-top of range, never seen oppo bluff or semi bluff in these spots" Now you can adjust to include bluffs or however you want to exploit it..
Comments
-fold my air or underpairs and any J worse than A J. would consider folding oesd's for reverse implied odds
Call- basically never - some Q's depending on opponent
raise- all overpairs, AJ, Q's.
If he jams flop i call with a Q and lay the rest.
If he just calls and puts any more money in i will prob fold all but Q's.
If he calls and checks turn and riv i will v/bet overpairs and Q's.
This is obv a basic way of looking at it and there are many other nuances involved. But as a rule of thumb i think this is the best way of playing this spot.
Ok, the only problem I have with this and maybe you can set me straight.
If we merge and raise flop then what are we looking to get paid by. Meaning what does oppo put us on in order for oppo to pay us off.
Surely oppo has to put us on a wider range that what you suggest that would include bluffs. Are you suggesting we merge just the top-middle of our range that still beats oppos middle range.
What hands call our raise that we beat, draws, Jx.
Essentially when we raise flop what hands can we hold that oppo still thinks they beat. For this reason surely we would have to merge in raising with bottom of our range such as draws/bluffs some of the time so oppo thinks they can still be good here.
I really wanted to fold every street but wasn't good enough to find it, this is exactly the same as last night when I had AK and flop came out 3 7 K and I nearly folded flop only for him to turn over aces. My kings in theis hand are bluff catchers as played, so getting it in pre would make sense and save me all of this thinking.
Anyway here is the hand
Well they let you lose the minimum
If your perceived range has bluffs, but your actual range has value only, then that's how you win money.
Of course you don't want to actually hold your perceived range you just want to be aware of it. If you play to your perceived range then you are easy to play against, you have to skew it in these spots to get the better of oppo.
I see it like this - assuming this is a thinking player - and most importantly he HAS to have a tight 3bet range.
Oppo thinks we are polarised to nut / air hands when we raise flop. Therefore he thinks he can continue with his mid strength hands, and just c/c to bluff catch and pot control.
Given that oppo's entire range (excluding JJ or any Q) has showdown value against our air, he has no need to rebluff this spot. If he decides we are bluffing, surely he should be just calling and keeping the bluffs in our range. Therefore if he calls the flop raise, he can only put more money in with a set, and will only cc/c - bluff catch with the rest of his range.
So our raise on flop gives the illusion of polarising our range, the result being that it restricts the villains play on later streets and makes his hand extremely transparent.
Love the way the this post reads, all good
but
regarding the highlighted bit
my thinking is how we do create a perceived range if we don't ever raise with air/draws sometimes
is it enough here to r/f with KK to create a perceived range that includes draws/bluffs
seems to be a total flaw if we do not have a pereived range that includes air/draws
"o this guy always turns over mid-top of range, never seem oppo bluff or semi bluff in these spots"
= ez fold
u see what I am trying to put across
Who's to say you can't adjust though?? adapt and survive..
It's going to take a good oppo and alot of volume for this to be noticed
This is where the levelling starts.
Oppo starts to realise (QUOTE)"o this guy always turns over mid-top of range, never seen oppo bluff or semi bluff in these spots" Now you can adjust to include bluffs or however you want to exploit it..