Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?

MRBURNS4

CAN I PLEASE START THIS TREAD BY ASKING THE COMUNITY NOT TO TURN THIS INTO A BAD BEAT MOANS OR ATTACKS ON ANY PLAYERS. I STRESS THIS IS NOT A MOAN BUT A DISCUSSION.

Ok as a lot of you may know I have been a MTT player on the site for a while and myself and after table conversations with a few players I know there is a general ground swell of views that as always the game is changing.

I have been finding for the last few months and peaking at the moment when you pre raise 3x + there are a lot of players none who are regulars or long term sky players I will stress that will just call you down to the river with stupid 1 card outers and hitting just way too often. Of course we all know long term a very bad way to play and they wont win.

However an intresting views started coming through that ever since more and more free poker apps and facebook poker have increased so many players are calling with 92 off etc etc all the way to the river regardless how much you raise and bust you on the 1 outers.

Is this coming in with so many people learning the game on poker apps with no risk learning to play the game wrong but as so many are doing it it has changed the game.

Now I am in the Tikay camp punish limpers and have even joked and told players that they had just been taxed for limping but when they just call all the way down and bust decent hands with the 1 outers for so long now we all know it is a ever changing game.

I know there is no easy answer to this question as at any table you may have 3 poker app players and the rest good poker players and if I start to limp quite rightly any decent player will punish me.

But have other people found this and if so what have you done that is working. I do not want to limp but I am getting busted too often for raising with very good hands so in a changing game am I behind the trend?

Your thoughts please people and please I will stress again no bad beat moans, no naming of players etc just a discussion about a changing game.

Thanks

scotty77

Tight aggressive poker is always the way to be profitable at MTTs.

It doesn't matter if you get unlucky and get outdrawn by these kind of players.  The long run they will lose.  The main thing is that people don't really understand just how cruel, or kind, variance can be.

To be outdrawn in the last 10/50/100 games is statistically insignificant.  

That is why often the best way to get out of a bad run of form/variance or whatveer you like to call it is to often play MORE.

With regards to these free apps.  You may have a point in that when there is no risk that players just play any two and never fold, but once there is actual money on the line these players quickly adapt.

Having these kind of players at your table is good for you.  You do not want decent players are your table.  You want bad ones.

Limping will never ever become a trend in poker.  It is such a bad way to play.  Don't let these small samples of these 'bad' players getting lucky cloud you of that.

EDIT:  And I don't know what games you are playing but in the last year or so on SkyPoker.com the standard has risen so much.  I remember the good old days when you would go on a table and it would be 5 'bad' players.  Now even the 'bad' players tend to be aware of good opening sizing, don't tend to limp so much, fold weak Aces etc.  

pr1nnyraid

You could also attribute some of this to the nature of mtt's and your outlook upon them.

EXAMPLE:
For the ease of argument say 10% of the field are paid, with a 2k starting stack. Then at the time you reach the cash and 'succeed' in making profit, then the average stack would be 20k.

Obviously along the way to spin 2k into 20k then your whole stack, or a large portion of your stack will have to be at risk, at some point, potentially several times.
 
even if you just went 2k  /> 4k > 8k >16k > etc etc your stack is still going to be at risk 4/5 times before the money and before you 'succeed' in making profit. Even if you are in as a 70% fav in each of these spots, you are more than likely to go bust before reaching the money, or at least the chip avg for the money spots.

This is a very basic, potentially inaccurate theory as mtt's don't just play out as above and certain intricacies are involved in chipping up and surviving with chips. But it serves in suppoting my outlook on mtt's.

The point I am making is that you have to change your goals in an mtt, understand that they are not instant return. Succeeding in an mtt isn't making the cash in that one instance, it's putting yourself in good spots and making correct chipEV / $EV decisions. So maybe if you look at a volume of mtt's as a whole and see how you are fairing in a larger sample, you would not be so dettered by short term run bad. 



In regard to the whole limping - limp / call.. c/c.. c/c nature of your opponents, if you are consistently stacking off to people taking this line then i would suggest analysing your game. Are you predictable? are you always betting top pair on 3 streets then calling off a c/r shove when they get there? what kind of boards are you going broke on? Then try and adjust tplay accordingly, larger c-bets so you are getting more value out the bad calls. folding to c/r when you dont have the nuts & i mean THE NUTS.. etc etc

Anyway good luck we all run bad and it doesnt last forever (i'm hoping)

POKERTREV

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?:

Tight aggressive poker is always the way to be profitable at MTTs. It doesn't matter if you get unlucky and get outdrawn by these kind of players.  The long run they will lose.  The main thing is that people don't really understand just how cruel, or kind, variance can be. To be outdrawn in the last 10/50/100 games is statistically insignificant.   That is why often the best way to get out of a bad run of form/variance or whatveer you like to call it is to often play MORE. With regards to these free apps.  You may have a point in that when there is no risk that players just play any two and never fold, but once there is actual money on the line these players quickly adapt. Having these kind of players at your table is good for you.  You do not want decent players are your table.  You want bad ones. Limping will never ever become a trend in poker.  It is such a bad way to play.  Don't let these small samples of these 'bad' players getting lucky cloud you of that. EDIT:  And I don't know what games you are playing but in the last year or so on SkyPoker.com the standard has risen so much.  I remember the good old days when you would go on a table and it would be 5 'bad' players.  Now even the 'bad' players tend to be aware of good opening sizing, don't tend to limp so much, fold weak Aces etc.  
Posted by scotty77

Hi Ryan.
Some valid points as always.

Early stages of an MTT seem to be my downfall at the moment and I certainly see where MrB is coming from.

Any tips on overcoming the "Any Two" callers at this stage of a tourny? because at the moment even a 5 x Raise Pre with KK/AA and then a 3/4 pot bet is just not getting the respect it deserves early on and its very frustrating being outdrawn with the likes of 94off and any 2 suited at this level.

Obviously on the cash table I would be loving these players and would just accept it and re-load. But unfortunately we cannot reload in most MTT's once we have gone busto.

I can understand at smaller stakes the chips having no real monetary value, but surely £11.00 and above they should be taken more seriously? or do we need to go even higher for this to happen? 

Cheers
Trev.

MRBURNS4

Thanks for your thoughts Ryan and I do agree with what you have said.

I tend to play more of the higher mtts I prefer higher buy ins like the roller bus as you know the majority of Mtts tend to be at the 11/22 at the moment I wouldnt want to go lower the the 11 as I swear even at the 11 I can hear the sky bingo caller playing most hands lol

I do play quite a lot and not ashamed to adnitt for me I have been on a bad run for quiet a few months (and before anyone says anything yes I know I am cashing but not at amount I know I can and have done). I have enough faith in my play that I will run good/ better again as you cant cash for as long as I have and it change like that.

I agree about the standard rising which is excellent for the site but I suppose I have noticed a large increase of bad players just calling any 2 down to the river and catching that stupid one outers. Now as individulas they will never win long term but as a colletive they are messing up pot odds abd again not a moan just making sure I dont need to re look at pot odds etc.

I do play cash and STG as well but wikk always be mainly a MTT player, I have had bad runs before we all do well maybe except mt goldern run Julian Thew lol It could even be a seasonal thing with people off work playing you wouldnt normally see but in a game that is changing it would be wrong not to look at outside factors like the free poker apps that could in time change the way a large majorty play effecting our own play.

I did find it intresting that on another site I have been playing that dont run Bounty Hunters the standard of play is very different it is more like it used to be on Sky in fact so much ABC poker I cannot belive what I do get away with there lol

I know my biggest problem is I give players way to much credit a lot of the time and can not belive they cannot see what I do that is my problem that I am working on. For example if I play you at the table I know your not just looking at your cards your thinking about what I would have could have bluff with does the story fit etc but maybe if they have learnt the game from apps this is where I am going wrong as they have never learnt to think it futher then can my 92 off bust what ever hand you got or the fact as far as they are concerned any pp will do and not even stop to think what the other player is playing.

I started playing before these facebook games etc so learnt the game realy from Sky and was so long ago I was on dial up and had to play on the TV lol

I dont just want to asume it is a bad run hence the reason for asking because we have all seen the game change each year and dont want to be the one reading about it behind trends!

Thanks for taking the time to respond 

POKERTREV

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?:

You could also attribute some of this to the nature of mtt's and your outlook upon them. EXAMPLE: For the ease of argument say 10% of the field are paid, with a 2k starting stack. Then at the time you reach the cash and 'succeed' in making profit, then the average stack would be 20k. Obviously along the way to spin 2k into 20k then your whole stack, or a large portion of your stack will have to be at risk, at some point, potentially several times.   even if you just went 2k  /> 4k /> 8k >16k > etc etc your stack is still going to be at risk 4/5 times before the money and before you 'succeed' in making profit. Even if you are in as a 70% fav in each of these spots, you are more than likely to go bust before reaching the money, or at least the chip avg for the money spots. This is a very basic, potentially inaccurate theory as mtt's don't just play out as above and certain intricacies are involved in chipping up and surviving with chips. But it serves in suppoting my outlook on mtt's. The point I am making is that you have to change your goals in an mtt, understand that they are not instant return. Succeeding in an mtt isn't making the cash in that one instance, it's putting yourself in good spots and making correct chipEV / $EV decisions. So maybe if you look at a volume of mtt's as a whole and see how you are fairing in a larger sample, you would not be so dettered by short term run bad.  In regard to the whole limping - limp / call.. c/c.. c/c nature of your opponents, if you are consistently stacking off to people taking this line then i would suggest analysing your game. Are you predictable? are you always betting top pair on 3 streets then calling off a c/r shove when they get there? what kind of boards are you going broke on? Then try and adjust tplay accordingly, larger c-bets so you are getting more value out the bad calls. folding to c/r when you dont have the nuts & i mean THE NUTS.. etc etc Anyway good luck we all run bad and it doesnt last forever (i'm hoping)
Posted by pr1nnyraid

Hi pr1nnyraid.
Not thought about MTT's in that way for a long while and I suppose its easy to become complacent.

Your points on predictability has reminded me, its not just how I perceive other players at the table, its also how they perceive me.

Thanks
Trev. 

Mohican

Any tips on overcoming the "Any Two" callers at this stage of a tourny? because at the moment even a 5 x Raise Pre with KK/AA and then a 3/4 pot bet is just not getting the respect it deserves early on and its very frustrating being outdrawn with the likes of 94off and any 2 suited at this level.

If you are doing this and are getting paid most times, then I suggest you are doing nothing wrong. Occasionally 'Any Two' get there but most of the time they wont. Why do you want them to 'respect' a raise??? When I've got AA I want  7 2 suited to call. I want him to call on a straight/flush draw or with top pair. He won't get the odds/cheap cards against me and I constantly pick up chips when I get wiff of a drawing player. Geting worse hands to call is how you make da moniez in pokerz.

MRBURNS4

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?:

You could also attribute some of this to the nature of mtt's and your outlook upon them. EXAMPLE: For the ease of argument say 10% of the field are paid, with a 2k starting stack. Then at the time you reach the cash and 'succeed' in making profit, then the average stack would be 20k. Obviously along the way to spin 2k into 20k then your whole stack, or a large portion of your stack will have to be at risk, at some point, potentially several times.   even if you just went 2k  /> 4k /> 8k >16k > etc etc your stack is still going to be at risk 4/5 times before the money and before you 'succeed' in making profit. Even if you are in as a 70% fav in each of these spots, you are more than likely to go bust before reaching the money, or at least the chip avg for the money spots. This is a very basic, potentially inaccurate theory as mtt's don't just play out as above and certain intricacies are involved in chipping up and surviving with chips. But it serves in suppoting my outlook on mtt's. The point I am making is that you have to change your goals in an mtt, understand that they are not instant return. Succeeding in an mtt isn't making the cash in that one instance, it's putting yourself in good spots and making correct chipEV / $EV decisions. So maybe if you look at a volume of mtt's as a whole and see how you are fairing in a larger sample, you would not be so dettered by short term run bad.  In regard to the whole limping - limp / call.. c/c.. c/c nature of your opponents, if you are consistently stacking off to people taking this line then i would suggest analysing your game. Are you predictable? are you always betting top pair on 3 streets then calling off a c/r shove when they get there? what kind of boards are you going broke on? Then try and adjust tplay accordingly, larger c-bets so you are getting more value out the bad calls. folding to c/r when you dont have the nuts & i mean THE NUTS.. etc etc Anyway good luck we all run bad and it doesnt last forever (i'm hoping)
Posted by pr1nnyraid

Thank you for your thoughts, well most people who know me in MTTs know the one thing I am not is predictable lol In fact many times I have been told not you I hate playing you lol I have won enough over a long periodf of time I would not call myself good but good enough to have been able for a long time draw a decent enough amount each month with maybe apart from 1 month or 2 in the last couple of years.

It is more of a trend of a change of style of players coming forward in the last 6 months that no longer raise call your 3/4 pre raise and yes people shock horror MRB will 3/4 pre raise with junk if he thinks the other player is weak or I feel I have an edge (I know this is a shock to you all MRB isnt a rock lol;))

I pride myself on the fact if you take AA for example I dont think I very often play it the same way twice which of course is the way to keep cashing not to have a pattern. Its this change of players style of never putting their hands down never raising and of couse getting lucky ever now and then but the numbers are growing so much that as a collective they are becoming a real issue. I want these players but feel I may need to relook at my way of playing that collective of call call call to river just in case 92 off could win.

Again please do take this as a moan or not understanding varience just in a changing game it dosent do any harm to stop for a while and take a step back.

Well my big step back is that I am off soon to see the Great Dundee UTD play Dymano Moscow so a good majorty of tonight will be away from the tables lol

Tikay10

The game has not changed, but the players have, as has the way they play.

Good discipline & remembering the basics is more important now than it ever was.

Limpers & atc players? Bring 'em on, just remember to adjust your game to compensate, & accept a few flesh wounds on your way to long term profit.

Even now, we cant have our cake and eat it, so when Mr 9-3 man busts you, be grateful to him, & smile. He is tomorrow's profit.

Tikay10

Happy to take questions on this topic on tonight's Show.

EITHER Post on the Show Thread, or e-Mail them to SkyOpen@bskyb.com (I think!).

Thanks.

MRBURNS4

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?:

Any tips on overcoming the "Any Two" callers at this stage of a tourny? because at the moment even a 5 x Raise Pre with KK/AA and then a 3/4 pot bet is just not getting the respect it deserves early on and its very frustrating being outdrawn with the likes of 94off and any 2 suited at this level. If you are doing this and are getting paid most times, then I suggest you are doing nothing wrong. Occasionally 'An Two' get there but most of the time they wont. Why do you want them to 'respect' a raise??? When I've got AA I want  7 2 suited to call. I want him to call on a straight/flush draw or with top pair. He won't get the odds/cheap cards against me and I constantly pick up chips when I get wiff of a drawing player. Geting worse hands to call is how you make da moniez in pokerz.
Posted by Mohican

I think Trev point is that yes of course he wants these calls but as way too many people are calling with any two when they didnt used to even 6 months ago you now lose why more often then you do win agaisnt players like that. We dont want them to stop but if the numbers of call any two has grown so much we do need to rethink early play in a MTT

MRBURNS4

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?:

Happy to take questions on this topic on tonight's Show. EITHER Post on the Show Thread, or e-Mail them to SkyOpen@bskyb.com (I think!). Thanks.
Posted by Tikay10

Thanks Tikay good luck with the show but as I mentioned off to see the mighty Dundee Utd v Dymano Moscow will miss the show so please feel free to use this as a qustion.

Please also dont think I am upset about this as I agree and anybody who plays me knows I always tell them NH and wish them luck as I agree esp with my notes I make a lot more out of them long term.

It is just an observation of the way the new number of players are playing which makes you sometimes take a step back and think how you play your game.

Enjoy the show and hope Dundee Utd run better then me at the moment lol

Mohican

 If you see someone chasing a gut shot to the river, especiallly an all-in on the turn and they get there, Sharkscope them.  Chance are they are a losing player. You get 5 free searches a day. Makes things a lot clearer when you see in pounds and pence, how much their limp call any two style costs them.

GELDY

Not just Sky but live too - and not just low bi but even a £50k tournament

"Saturday was awful in live tournies. Big bi but get called all the way by weak hands that luckbox the river - time & time again. Guess I didn't adjust my play well enough - but there were chips for the taking if you held up against them - I didn't."

Whether it's a trend or not I don't know, but way more calling down than I remember on Sky. Guess it means more variance (which hurts more when you play live because you can't just fire up another tournament.) But also I do think that one needs to tighten up a bit - less betting light etc - until deeper into the tournament. 

_ARAZI_

I think to be honest there is no way around these type of players and i do think that when alot of players who were the Phil Iveys of the facebook world start to play for real money online it does result in this type of player but as you well know mate we want these guys playing.

If your up against the type of player who will call with any two cards and continue calling all streets hoping to hit one of those 1 or 2 outers all you can do is make sure that your not the one making the mistakes in the hand and charge them well over the odds everytime your up against them to make sure that their mistakes get bigger and bigger each time.


It does become very frustrating though when it seems as though no matter what you do they always get there but at the end of the month when you see your bankroll has gone up this should let you know that it dosnt always end in tears.


My final word on this would be to play a good tight aggressive game and no matter how lucky they are in the short term it will become impossible for them to win long term playing this way.

Good luck at the tables mate.

Daz.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?:

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play? : Thanks Tikay good luck with the show but as I mentioned off to see the mighty Dundee Utd v Dymano Moscow will miss the show so please feel free to use this as a qustion. Please also dont think I am upset about this as I agree and anybody who plays me knows I always tell them NH and wish them luck as I agree esp with my notes I make a lot more out of them long term. It is just an observation of the way the new number of players are playing which makes you sometimes take a step back and think how you play your game. Enjoy the show and hope Dundee Utd run better then me at the moment lol
Posted by MRBURNS4

No worries, I understand the question, & why you ask, perfectly.

Personally, the more it is discussed, the better, as it makes me very sad when new players don't quite understand the logic of why we want to take on bad players, & how we should do so.

Generally, once they have played for a few months, they understand.

Dazler

yes ive found over the last month or so its getting worse, every one is just limping or flat calling raises all the way to river with either small pks hoping to hit there set even when flush draws overcards and you name it are there. They flat call with 2nd pair hoping to hit 2 pair they shove on draws with the likes of K2 suited after you raise with premiums you hit top pair raise and they shove on you and hit. Its becoming very frustrating and imo is really just bingo poker. They shove pre with Rag As after you raise which is beyond me because i dont understand what on earth they think there beating. The standard has dropped not sure if its the summer and the sun has got to them. But you regualarly see everyone limp pre you raise 3 or even 4x bb and then get 4 or 5 callers which if they had a decent hand why arnt they raising pre flop your AK or what ever you had is then in real danger and you have no idea where you are. Its taken the play out of the game for me and im not enjoying it. I suppose you have to adapt but it aint easy.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?:
[QUOTE]yes ive found over the last month or so its getting worse, every one is just limping or flat calling raises all the way to river with either small pks hoping to hit there set even when flush draws overcards and you name it are there. They flat call with 2nd pair hoping to hit 2 pair they shove on draws with the likes of K2 suited after you raise with premiums you hit top pair raise and they shove on you and hit. Its becoming very frustrating and imo is really just bingo poker. They shove pre with Rag As after you raise which is beyond me because i dont understand what on earth they think there beating. The standard has dropped not sure if its the summer and the sun has got to them. But you regualarly see everyone limp pre you raise 3 or even 4x bb and then get 4 or 5 callers which if they had a decent hand why arnt they raising pre flop your AK or what ever you had is then in real danger and you have no idea where you are. Its taken the play out of the game for me and im not enjoying it. I suppose you have to adapt but it aint easy.
Posted by Dazler

Hi Dazzy.

Couple of things.

You refer repeatedly to "they". Who are "they"? "They are "us"! Poker players.
 
You also say - as many others have - "the standard has dropped". So, by extension, "they" are lesser players - bad players.

Are we really saying that we - good players - cannot beat them - the bad players. Because if we are, we need to take a long hard look at our own game!

Poker must be the ONLY game on earth where we complain about allegedly worse, or inferior, opponents!

Hope you run a bit better soon Dazzy. Keep doing the right things, & you'll be just fine, over time. You will.   

The_Don90

MrBurns, i spoke with you in Blackpool and after i got home i took a few weeks off. Since then i went back to MTTs, always where i was more comfortable despite a worsening Scope for them. 

However since comming back my roll isnt super strong, i went on one day and played a load of dyms not a good idea for me and i actually feel outwith certain tournaments which i now target, the standard has improved. 

Slykllist

Without a doubt there seem to be more limping and more people willing to make -EV calls all the way to the river recentley.  I'm constantly amazed by the poor standard of play in some tournaments and as Trev points out earlier, it's not just at the micro stakes.

That said, I'm 100% with Tikay on this, yes it's horrible when they suck out on you, yes you're going to get dumped out of tournaments by miracle river cards, yes you're probably going to get tilted by some of this play.  But, YES 100% you want to be playing against these players, over time good poker will always beat bad poker and it's these players that we should see as providing us our next cash.

You keep hearing about the value being lost from Hold'em becuase of the standard increasing, that's clearly not the case here so we should be celebrating the fact these guys choose to play against us not bemoaning it.

huuuuume

i think its important to remember that this type of play has always happened and does happen on all sites(possibly to a higher level on sky) and if you were able to beat it before then you should be able to beat it again.  you may need to adjust a little to keep pots smaller against them and make it a longer game rather than going for high variance moves against them.

with the popularity of 3 betting it makes sense that weak players choose to limp so they can simply call the inevitable raise and see flops with hands they didnt want to fold in the first place.  this isn't likely to be a winning strategy but in a weird way seems a sensible way for the fish to combat the aggro way mtt early stages are played at the moment.

fish with brains