Hi Guys. This is a great discussion on a subject which we have all been involved in on the tables from time to time.
When I say my raises are not getting the respect, what I mean is, I don't particularly want the whole table to be involved in a community pot.
I agree, YES, we want these types of players in the pot. (I wont call them bad as they may only be just learning the game) If I raise 3-4 x with AK, QQ etc I expect to get a couple callers, we want them, that how we are going to accumulate chips, however, I still think there may be a trend happening here, because instead of getting a couple of callers, I see the whole table calling quite often.
Now don't get me wrong, as we all know we want callers, but the more players we have in the pot, the less value our AK, QQ has and the more likely we are going to get outdrawn.
Does anyone think its getting much harder to get enough players to fold pre-flop and to fold down the streets?
ps. I outdrew "Tikay" once, back in the day when I wasn't scared to call an all in with Q, 10 lol. (Although it may have been suited) Thats a monsta! right? lol
Did you enjoy the "ding-dong" in Dundee? Good thread BTW. I'm a purely recreation player on the site for approx 18mths. Knowing nothing about poker I started on the free tables to learn how to play. When I moved to real play for the first couple of weeks I was probably one of the ATC brigade! Needless to say I won a few BUT I lost more! Not sure how many NEW players join the site every week but the "new player" freerolls get large numbers every Tuesday. Poker, in general, may be getting more popular and by definition there will be more players willing to go all-the-way with ATC. Could a reason simply be that we are seeing a larger % of new players on the site at any one time? FWIW I believe the OVERALL standard of play has improved GREATLY since I joined.
yes ive found over the last month or so its getting worse, every one is just limping or flat calling raises all the way to river with either small pks hoping to hit there set even when flush draws overcards and you name it are there. They flat call with 2nd pair hoping to hit 2 pair they shove on draws with the likes of K2 suited after you raise with premiums you hit top pair raise and they shove on you and hit. Its becoming very frustrating and imo is really just bingo poker. They shove pre with Rag As after you raise which is beyond me because i dont understand what on earth they think there beating. The standard has dropped not sure if its the summer and the sun has got to them. But you regualarly see everyone limp pre you raise 3 or even 4x bb and then get 4 or 5 callers which if they had a decent hand why arnt they raising pre flop your AK or what ever you had is then in real danger and you have no idea where you are. Its taken the play out of the game for me and im not enjoying it. I suppose you have to adapt but it aint easy. Posted by Dazler
Or limping UTG with K7 off and calling my shove(and binking your K on the river). #justsayin
There are excellent posts on here and i haven't had chance to read all of them as i'm out soon but will. What are theses free apps you talk about MrBURNS and where do i get them. Scotty's "statistcal not significant"...sorry doesn't help two hours in and junk sucks out in front on you. I've personally found DYM limping has become so prevalent recently. Even the calling is more 'relaxed' shall we say eg calling ai with k2s on bubble and equal stacks? Once, a high blind limper starts then all seem to do it at the table to introduce a check raise option. Its almost as if safety is there and they may catch two pair on a junkish flop. Consequently, knowing where you stand seems more difficult. Funny though, as its something i'd noticed too MRBURNS. Good thread though and i like the bit about no bad beats. I've tilted a couple of times from 'poor' calls which have sucked out. The one above did ,even after the first card wa a Q, but i suppose we should see it as a learning experience.It can be infuriating though...
Tight aggressive poker is always the way to be profitable at MTTs. It doesn't matter if you get unlucky and get outdrawn by these kind of players. The long run they will lose. The main thing is that people don't really understand just how cruel, or kind, variance can be. To be outdrawn in the last 10/50/100 games is statistically insignificant. That is why often the best way to get out of a bad run of form/variance or whatveer you like to call it is to often play MORE. With regards to these free apps. You may have a point in that when there is no risk that players just play any two and never fold, but once there is actual money on the line these players quickly adapt. Having these kind of players at your table is good for you. You do not want decent players are your table. You want bad ones. Limping will never ever become a trend in poker. It is such a bad way to play. Don't let these small samples of these 'bad' players getting lucky cloud you of that. EDIT: And I don't know what games you are playing but in the last year or so on SkyPoker.com the standard has risen so much. I remember the good old days when you would go on a table and it would be 5 'bad' players. Now even the 'bad' players tend to be aware of good opening sizing, don't tend to limp so much, fold weak Aces etc. Posted by scotty77
what you are saying ryan is there is no point playing if you just play one or two games a day. to beat variance you need to play large numbers of games the only winner there is the poker site in my view. mr burns made a good point people are going to the river with no hand and getting that one outer i see it all the time with new players. i have my view but this is not the place to air it given the strict guidelines in force. i say onwards and upwards if you enjoy the online game play it if not there is always bingo:))
No Drumhai, I'm not saying that there is no point playing. I'm saying that a lot of people don't really understand varience, both the good and the bad side of it.
The more that you play the closer your true ROI will form. You can still be a winning player on a very small amount of volume but you just won't know how much you COULD win in the long run as your sample isn't valid. It doesn't mean there aren't good winning players who only play 1/2 tournies a night, I know from experience on this site that there are plenty of players who play this kind of volume and make a very nice profit doing it. BUT for most people poker is about fun and enjoying it and that is more important than knownig to the exact percentage what your ROI should be.
Profman - I realise how frustrating it can be when on a downswing or when you invest time into a tournie only to get outdrawn when near the big money.
I actually do remember back to 3/4 years ago when I was more of a recreational player. I even think 1 or 2 times I blamed the RnG, bad players, how unlucky I was etc. Basically I was always right, my plays were always right and they were all lucky clowns was my attitude. Some people can remember that this attitude also came out int the chat now and then.
Then I invested time into learning about the maths of the game, had some coaching, read lots of poker books/training sites/videos. Not only did it change my skill level in the game, it also totally changed my outlook. I rarely give a bad beat a second thought anymore.
My volume the past couple of years has been massive and believe me that everything evens out. I know that to some players who don't play this kind of volume that it can be seen as condescending but I'm really not trying to be. Remember that unlike many of the experts/pros, I have done all of this on Sky Poker grinding away on the cash tables with tournies added in too.
If everyone took the time to read up on the maths of poker and understood it, then places like Area 51 or BBV wouldn't exist. However it requires time and effort to do that so people will until then try and claim other reasons for their downfall because ignorance is generally bliss.
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Onto the Poker App thing. ANYTHING that gets more fresh new blood into poker is a good thing. All poker sites need new players to keep liquidity on the site up, as some people will always leave the game for various reasons. Some will simply lose all their money, others will simply fall out of love with the game, get a new job, start a family etc etc.
I think MrBurns may have a point in that some of the 'poor' play from the apps/facebook poker may transfer over to real play BUT I think that with experience these kind of things tend to iron out. For viewers of the TV channel, I'm sure you all remember just how bad the play on the televised hands were 2/3 years ago. One very consistent theme tho is llimping, which despite every single expert/analyst saying is bad for 4/5 years now, is still very very common.
one of the biggest misconceptions i see on this forum are people saying i am on a "downsing" or "running bad"
unless you are playing a significant number of hands there is no way to judge whether you are or are not running well or badly
to give an example another site were i track my stats last year i was running 15% above ev for a massive sample of hands this year i am running 12% under ev for a massive sample of hands.
Even players that i communicate with who play much more volume than probably anybody on this site (and me) have descripencies on there yearly figures.
Can I first just say Ty to all great to see a proper discussion which is what we want in the comunity.
The Dundee match was great amazing to get to see a team where 1 of there guys cost more then our whole team and got to see a russian boxing match as well at no extra cost! I know the russians think there police are nasty but I dont think they will forget Tayside police in a hurry lol
I do of course see the positive side of playing the new type of player tonight in the main and think it is hard to come up with any stragery with the call any 2 card as it was early level 2/3 he wasnt short staked
I had KK he was first to act he min raises I come back over top 4 x he re raises min back i push he snaps thought ok was the AA and he turns over 56 suited nice DU for me.
The point is looking at this type of player as typical play of the any 2 style he would called to river even with 6 high prob before folding so when I am running good I want to get them into pots but when I am ruinning bad just keep away from them.
I have come to the colusion unless it changes there are a new group of players that will mainly never raise call any 2 all the way to the river and I will just treat them as varience i.e we should win a majority of time but when they start winning as the bad varience just expect it and know it will not last.
I have never not wanted these players as they can be very profitable for us all but think I needed to get it straight in my head and now I think there are just a new factor in the game.
We will all have our own views which is what makes the games so excellent as we will all go away and play different but as old a poker term as it is poker is a ever changing game and better in my view we discuss it and get ahead of any curve or decided no there is no change but at least discussions like this help us all take a step back, which shows the real positives having a comunity on Sky which is great to see.
Off to the highlands for the weekend so have fun and run well at the tables all and when I return I will call you all down with 92 off and should bust my bankroll by Tuesday lol
No Drumhai, I'm not saying that there is no point playing. I'm saying that a lot of people don't really understand varience, both the good and the bad side of it. The more that you play the closer your true ROI will form. You can still be a winning player on a very small amount of volume but you just won't know how much you COULD win in the long run as your sample isn't valid. It doesn't mean there aren't good winning players who only play 1/2 tournies a night, I know from experience on this site that there are plenty of players who play this kind of volume and make a very nice profit doing it. BUT for most people poker is about fun and enjoying it and that is more important than knownig to the exact percentage what your ROI should be. Profman - I realise how frustrating it can be when on a downswing or when you invest time into a tournie only to get outdrawn when near the big money. I actually do remember back to 3/4 years ago when I was more of a recreational player. I even think 1 or 2 times I blamed the RnG, bad players, how unlucky I was etc. Basically I was always right, my plays were always right and they were all lucky clowns was my attitude. Some people can remember that this attitude also came out int the chat now and then. Then I invested time into learning about the maths of the game, had some coaching, read lots of poker books/training sites/videos. Not only did it change my skill level in the game, it also totally changed my outlook. I rarely give a bad beat a second thought anymore. My volume the past couple of years has been massive and believe me that everything evens out. I know that to some players who don't play this kind of volume that it can be seen as condescending but I'm really not trying to be. Remember that unlike many of the experts/pros, I have done all of this on Sky Poker grinding away on the cash tables with tournies added in too. If everyone took the time to read up on the maths of poker and understood it, then places like Area 51 or BBV wouldn't exist. However it requires time and effort to do that so people will until then try and claim other reasons for their downfall because ignorance is generally bliss. ------------------------------------------------- Onto the Poker App thing. ANYTHING that gets more fresh new blood into poker is a good thing. All poker sites need new players to keep liquidity on the site up, as some people will always leave the game for various reasons. Some will simply lose all their money, others will simply fall out of love with the game, get a new job, start a family etc etc. I think MrBurns may have a point in that some of the 'poor' play from the apps/facebook poker may transfer over to real play BUT I think that with experience these kind of things tend to iron out. For viewers of the TV channel, I'm sure you all remember just how bad the play on the televised hands were 2/3 years ago. One very consistent theme tho is llimping, which despite every single expert/analyst saying is bad for 4/5 years now, is still very very common. Posted by scotty77
Indeed we do and it is about time that you acknowledged it.....well done.....I may even take a more positive attitude towards you from now on!
Yeah it's annoying, in a way I'm changing my game a bit as say if it's final table and all my raises are getting called then I'm going to have to start limping my pocket pairs, whereas before I would raise and get 4 callers and miss, just doesn't make sense. I'm starting to think MTT's are mainly about luck, as yes the best players will make final tables and money more often, but end of the day you could constantly 100% be getting unlucky at the most vital moments, so what if you got your money in good as a 80% fav and you busted on final table bubble people will say well played played it good, yes you did play it good but it was a key hand.
Comments
This is a great discussion on a subject which we have all been involved in on the tables from time to time.
When I say my raises are not getting the respect, what I mean is, I don't particularly want the whole table to be involved in a community pot.
I agree, YES, we want these types of players in the pot. (I wont call them bad as they may only be just learning the game) If I raise 3-4 x with AK, QQ etc I expect to get a couple callers, we want them, that how we are going to accumulate chips, however, I still think there may be a trend happening here, because instead of getting a couple of callers, I see the whole table calling quite often.
Now don't get me wrong, as we all know we want callers, but the more players we have in the pot, the less value our AK, QQ has and the more likely we are going to get outdrawn.
Does anyone think its getting much harder to get enough players to fold pre-flop and to fold down the streets?
ps. I outdrew "Tikay" once, back in the day when I wasn't scared to call an all in with Q, 10 lol. (Although it may have been suited) Thats a monsta! right? lol
There are excellent posts on here and i haven't had chance to read all of them as i'm out soon but will. What are theses free apps you talk about MrBURNS and where do i get them. Scotty's "statistcal not significant"...sorry doesn't help two hours in and junk sucks out in front on you. I've personally found DYM limping has become so prevalent recently. Even the calling is more 'relaxed' shall we say eg calling ai with k2s on bubble and equal stacks? Once, a high blind limper starts then all seem to do it at the table to introduce a check raise option. Its almost as if safety is there and they may catch two pair on a junkish flop. Consequently, knowing where you stand seems more difficult.
Funny though, as its something i'd noticed too MRBURNS. Good thread though and i like the bit about no bad beats. I've tilted a couple of times from 'poor' calls which have sucked out. The one above did ,even after the first card wa a Q, but i suppose we should see it as a learning experience. It can be infuriating though...