Can I fold KK here?

Lambert180

I'm not just saying it because I've seen his hole cards now, please try to ignore his cards when answering, but I had this just pegged down as a cooler when it happened but the more I look at it, I can't really see any hands I'm beating...

I just flatted the raise on the flop to A) disguise the strength of my hand and see if any of the draws came in on the turn before committing to the pot. So when the turn came a blank I decided to go with it.

I know I'm getting great odds on the call but I really can't see a single hand I'm beating against your average 4NL player readless. Unless he's decided to be super aggressive with a FD which is not common place at this level, seems like I'm always gonna be up against 2pr, sets and made straights here...

Can I fold?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
cactusjac	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.07
Lambert180	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£4.54
	Your hole cards	K K
bokafella	Fold
zeenpeem	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£5.31
RockettAce	Fold
cactusjac	Call		£0.02	£0.12	£4.05
Lambert180	Raise		£0.20	£0.32	£4.34
zeenpeem	Call		£0.20	£0.52	£5.11
cactusjac	Fold
Flop
		9 7 J
Lambert180	Bet		£0.39	£0.91	£3.95
zeenpeem	Raise		£0.78	£1.69	£4.33
Lambert180	Call		£0.39	£2.08	£3.56
Turn
		5
Lambert180	Bet		£1.56	£3.64	£2.00
zeenpeem	All-in		£4.33	£7.97	£0.00
Lambert180	All-in		£2.00	£9.97	£0.00
zeenpeem	Unmatched bet		£0.77	£9.20	£0.77
Lambert180	Show	K K
zeenpeem	Show	10 8
River
		4
zeenpeem	Win	Straight to the Jack	£8.51		£9.28

percival09

I hate flatting the c/r only to lead the turn. If you're gonna flat the c/r check the turn imo. Readless I just get it in otf at 4nl

I call river after the way youve played it

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Can I fold KK here?:

I hate flatting the c/r only to lead the turn. If you're gonna flat the c/r check the turn imo. Readless I just get it in otf at 4nl I call river after the way youve played it
Posted by percival09

Turn

percival09

My surname is clearly spelt in my alias IDCU. 

BorinLoner

Yeah, I don't understand leading the turn after calling the raise on the flop. You call the raise to keep all his bluffs, draws and one-pairs in the hand, then you lead the turn which is going to make them fold out all of those hands...

As it is, when you bet the turn you have to know what you're going to do for the extra £2. With a hand like KK you have to then call or you're effectively bluffing. It can't be good to play a hand like KK as a bluff, intending to fold getting 4/1 on your money.

After calling the flop bet, check the turn to allow him to bluff. I wouldn't consider folding the turn, even though it brings in one straight draw. If you're going to fold to the turn bet, then you should fold to the flop raise... which would also be bad in my eyes.

EDIT: I'd probably just 3-bet the flop to get it in, personally. It's a very wet board, which I would expect to be winning on most of the time, but I want to charge the draws and probably get value from Jacks, etc. Calling isn't too bad as long as you can get away from the obvious danger cards, though it does leave you open to being bluffed by more sophisticated/aggro players.

Lambert180

I might be wrong Borin but my thinking was, he may raise the flop with a FD or straight draw, but very rarely (at this level) will people ever raise the flop AND turn with just a draw. I know what you're saying about turning KK into a bluff, but once I have bet and he shoves, can you think of a single hand that I'm ahead of?

I guess my question is, what does he raise flop AND turn with that I beat? So even if I played it incorrectly, once I've taken this incorrect line, can I not say 'right I'm not beating anything now' ?

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Can I fold KK here?:

I might be wrong Borin but my thinking was, he may raise the flop with a FD or straight draw, but very rarely (at this level) will people ever raise the flop AND turn with just a draw. I know what you're saying about turning KK into a bluff, but once I have bet and he shoves, can you think of a single hand that I'm ahead of? I guess my question is, what does he raise flop AND turn with that I beat? So even if I played it incorrectly, once I've taken this incorrect line, can I not say 'right I'm not beating anything now' ?
Posted by Lambert180

I think you need specific reads on the player involved to do this, rather than just falling back on "players at this level". Even if it's a sigh call, I think you have to call. He only has to be doing it with a Jack + a draw 1/5 times. Let's face it, we can't always predict these players anyway. Sometimes they turn up with total air. lol

NColley

leading the turn after villian c/r flop is awful

you want him to fold everything he was bluffing with?

anyway fold flop if he is your standard loose passive 4nl whale that loves to minraise the nuts, n check call turn as played if readless.

DrRunGood

allin on turn but no cant fold on river

Lambert180

That's 2 people now that have said I can't fold the river... the money all went in on the turn lol.

I really don't think it is an easy jam on the flop Donk, ok I might get called by some bad players with weak holdings but more often than not, I'll fold out all the hands I've beating unless he has a really strong draw and stacking off (too easily IMO) against all better hands just cos I have an OP.

My mistake was definitely leading the turn after flatting the flop, although granted it makes no difference in this particular hand, but on other occasions when he aint flopped the nuts, it will.

grantorino

Flop I think you can easily 3bet and get it in for value. Call to see turn ok sometimes, but wouldn't be my line readless at 4nl. Disguising your hand stupid against a guy who prob doesn't care what you have

Turn leading is terrible after flatting flop, either c/c or c/r? Don't fold now, if he thinks worse hands than yours good on flop, he prob thinks they are still good

What do you think his range is (a ) when he raises flop, and ( b) when he raises turn

u_sud_fold

the turn is so bad its untrue

Lambert180

@ Grantorino, the range of hands I put him on...

When he raises the flop - JJ-AA, 8T, J9, J7, 79, 77, 99, AJ, QTcc, JT maybe sometimes. I have the Kc so no Kxcc hands but every Axcc hand from A2cc up to AKcc 

When he raises the turn - I still include all the sets, OPs, 2prs and made straights and disregard the draws with the exception of QTcc and maybe AQcc and ATcc

Obviously these all went out the window in-game when I just stubbornly refused to lay down KK but with my ranges above I don't see how people can suggest calling the shove regardless of the pot odds being offered. I may be wrong

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Can I fold KK here?:

@ Grantorino, the range of hands I put him on... When he raises the flop - JJ-AA, 8T, J9, J7, 79, 77, 99, AJ, QTcc, JT maybe sometimes. I have the Kc so no Kxcc hands but every Axcc hand from A2cc up to AKcc  When he raises the turn - I still include all the sets, OPs, 2prs and made straights and disregard the draws with the exception of QTcc and maybe AQcc and ATcc Obviously these all went out the window in-game when I just stubbornly refused to lay down KK but with my ranges above I don't see how people can suggest calling the shove regardless of the pot odds being offered. I may be wrong
Posted by Lambert180

Think about it this way: If he has AJ, KJ, QJ, JT. a straight and flush draw or anything like that and he thinks his hand is good, then calling or raising on the turn are exactly the same thing: If he calls the £1.56 he knows he has to put the £2 in anyway. You're narrowing his range down because you think he would obviously only call with anything you beat but that's not the case. Any of us would just get it in or fold. Calling would never be an option.

rancid

if you don't fold flop then don't fold

oppo basically sending you a note saying one pr is no good

unless you know oppo goes mental with TPTK or da bluff or draw -_-

if you lead turn you put oppo on TP only :S

folding flop is ok, fact that oppo limp/calls - makes it a very easy fold tbh - even though it's never easy folding overpairs, but unless oppo is aggro and will bluff/semi bluff with a raise on flop then your hand is no good
In general people who limp/call don't suddenly go aggro unless they have the hand they are telegraphing

bludreid11

In Response to Can I fold KK here?:

I'm not just saying it because I've seen his hole cards now, please try to ignore his cards when answering, but I had this just pegged down as a cooler when it happened but the more I look at it, I can't really see any hands I'm beating... I just flatted the raise on the flop to A) disguise the strength of my hand and see if any of the draws came in on the turn before committing to the pot. So when the turn came a blank I decided to go with it. I know I'm getting great odds on the call but I really can't see a single hand I'm beating against your average 4NL player readless. Unless he's decided to be super aggressive with a FD which is not common place at this level, seems like I'm always gonna be up against 2pr, sets and made straights here... Can I fold? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance cactusjac Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £4.07 Lambert180 Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £4.54   Your hole cards K K       bokafella Fold         zeenpeem Call   £0.04 £0.10 £5.31 RockettAce Fold         cactusjac Call   £0.02 £0.12 £4.05 Lambert180 Raise   £0.20 £0.32 £4.34 zeenpeem Call   £0.20 £0.52 £5.11 cactusjac Fold         Flop     9 7 J       Lambert180 Bet   £0.39 £0.91 £3.95 zeenpeem Raise   £0.78 £1.69 £4.33 Lambert180 Call   £0.39 £2.08 £3.56 Turn     5       Lambert180 Bet   £1.56 £3.64 £2.00 zeenpeem All-in   £4.33 £7.97 £0.00 Lambert180 All-in   £2.00 £9.97 £0.00 zeenpeem Unmatched bet   £0.77 £9.20 £0.77 Lambert180 Show K K       zeenpeem Show 10 8       River     4       zeenpeem Win Straight to the Jack £8.51   £9.28
Posted by Lambert180

without looking at his cards, when he called your raise, i would have put him on AJ or Q
after the flop, i had him on A J, at 2/4p a lot of players will raise or call the re-raise with a big ace
on the turn you had every right to think you were in front.
all-in ?? every time

Spikelad

Lambert i have played quite a bit of nl4 recently and a lot of the time you would still be in the lead at the end of this hand.I think the problem here is you are readless against this opponent.

Anyway it is only one hand so dont beat yourself up about it mate.

liamboi11

At certain levels and also againist certain players I would fold the flop but at 4nl I`m gettin it in on the flop vul

waynec

Without sounding to harsh this is really a bad beat post, unless you folded the flop which I doubt even the best would find easy you are beat however you play it...... standard cooler, hurts but that is poker.

Wilhelm

The way you've played it makes no sense.  If you're happy to get it in, get it in on the flop.  Don't give him an extra card to draw to.

bolly580

leading turn is ridic