Since when would K9 ever call a jam here lol. People are way more likely to call with AJ (which we're beating) Posted by Lambert180
Really? Thanks for clarifying.
Some people would call with a gutshot. And as always when analysing a hand i was merely pointing out POSSIBLE hands that MAY CONSIDER calling, not hands that he actually has.
And i think the money has to go in, i was just querying the shove.
In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : Villians line is absolutely fine as he wants to start to get chips in the middle, if he takes the chk/raise line it looks far too strong on this board. Posted by DoubleAAA
he does need to donk out to get money in the middle , if hero had small or medium pair he's jus going to fold. if villian checks , hreo is obvz going to c-bet ! he does not have toto c/r flop , he has nuts on rainbow board ! nt saying its the worst play cz he gt all the money ....
Sorry my mistake, I was thinking that villian was BB and not a limper. So with him being a limper it's imperative that we raise more pf but shoving that flop is awful as I explained earlier we fold out everything that we beat and only get called by everything that has us beat. You don't want to play your whole stack on this board which smacks his range so often.
When we shove what do you expect to call you that we have beat apart from QT and J9s and he won't be showing up with J9s given the fact that he limped EP?
Raising this flop is fine as we will in most cases get a free river card and have controlled the pot. If we just call then villian gets another 2 bets out of us.
@ NColley - So given you flat the flop, then what do we do on the turn as we have got no info as to where we are. Sorry but flatting this flop is just bahhh.
Sorry my mistake, I was thinking that villian was BB and not a limper. So with him being a limper it's imperative that we raise more pf but shoving that flop is awful as I explained earlier we fold out everything that we beat and only get called by everything that has us beat. You don't want to play your whole stack on this board which smacks his range so often. When we shove what do you expect to call you apart from QT and J9s and he won't be showing up with J9s given the fact that he limped EP? @ NColley - So given you flat the flop, then what do we do on the turn as we have got no info as to where we are. Sorry but flatting this flop is just bahhh. Posted by DoubleAAA
Where do people keep getting this idea people would call the shove with J9s on a rainbow board, sure some really bad players would call with a GS but the people who are bad enough to call with a gutshot will easily call with AK, AJ, maybe KQ , certainly QT and probably tons more weak hands... who calls that big a shove with only a GS on that board?
You flat the flop because it allows him to keep betting with his weaker hands. I think if he has KJ here, you're going bust and that's the end of it, but you wanna get the most of the times he has other hands.
In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : Where do people keep getting this idea people would call the shove with J9s on a rainbow board, sure some really bad players would call with a GS but the people who are bad enough to call with a gutshot will easily call with AK, AJ, maybe KQ , certainly QT and probably tons more weak hands... who calls that big a shove with only a GS on that board? You flat the flop because it allows him to keep betting with his weaker hands. I think if he has KJ here, you're going bust and that's the end of it, but you wanna get the most of the times he has other hands. Posted by Lambert180
J9s is not a gut-shot, it's an OESD and as you well know some will call an all-in with that draw although personally speaking IMO it's incorrect.
The hands that beat us are set Ts, Qs, KJ, AQ and villian will hardly ever show up with QQ and AK here.
We fold out; 22-99, JJ, A2-A9, KQ, KT and possibly J9s.
Hands that call us that we have beat; QT, J9s (AJ debatable), (AK villian hardly ever shows up with this) Workout the number of combinations that beat us and that we have beat that calls us and then tell me if you still think that shoving this flop is +EV.
So please can you post what hands will call our flop shove for 50bbs aside from QT and possibly AJ?
Edit - I forgot to mention that villian will hardly ever show up with KK and will not call a shove regardless.
I'm definitely in the 'dont shove flop' group, see my first post, where I tell him not to shove flop lol.
I just wasn't sure about the hands you say call when we do shove. Fair point that I missed J9 was OESD, but yeah I still think we can raise the flop (without shoving) and keep in weaker hands than ours, especially when alot of bad players don't realise that calling the raise is gonna leave them virtually committed with a hand that can only be 2nd best.
I am a fish though, so don't give my comments much weight lol.
I'm definitely in the 'dont shove flop' group, see my first post, where I tell him not to shove flop lol. I just wasn't sure about the hands you say call when we do shove. Fair point that I missed J9 was OESD, but yeah I still think we can raise the flop (without shoving) and keep in weaker hands than ours, especially when alot of bad players don't realise that calling the raise is gonna leave them virtually committed with a hand that can only be 2nd best. I am a fish though, so don't give my comments much weight lol. Posted by Lambert180
Like we said, villian will hardly ever show up with J9s anyway.
So for those of you that think that the shove is fine, please can you post what hands that we beat call us for 50bbs.
In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : Like we said, villian will hardly ever show up with J9s anyway. So for those of you that think that the shove is fine, please can you post what hands that we beat call us for 50bbs. Posted by DoubleAAA
in my experience u will get clled by ace rag frm a lot of weak opponents and obvz worse two pairsobvz and some fish might call with a str8 draw ! ur ahead loads of time
Flat flop and shove turn. Not getting away from this one especially as he has limped he more often than not turn over a rag ace i think, your just ul here
ok doubleAAA, you go ahead and turn 2 pairs into bluff regularly, see where it gets you... raise folding 2 pair is pretty lols Posted by NColley
We fold if we get shoved on the flop for sure. Our 2.2x flop raise allows us to most of the time find out where we are and usually get the turn chkd to us which controls the pot. We're deep and this board is just too murky.
If he value bets the river we can safely call and still have around 50bbs left.
Like I said, if we shove this flop you tell me what hands do we get called by?
In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : We fold if we get shoved on the flop for sure. Our 2.2x flop raise allows us to most of the time find out where we are and usually get the turn chkd to us which controls the pot. We're deep and this board is just too murky. If he value bets the river we can safely call and still have around 50bbs left. Like I said, if we shove this flop you tell me what hands do we get called by? Posted by DoubleAAA
u need to understand tht there are so many plyers on the site tht will call a raise pre with ace rag and be haappy to get in on this flop ! your ahead 95 percent of time against most oppos IMO
In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : u need to understand tht there are so many plyers on the site tht will call a raise pre with ace rag and be haappy to get in on this flop ! your ahead 95 percent of time against most oppos IMO Posted by samboram45
95% of the time we're ahead? really? wow!! I would love to know how you calculated that figure! lol
Oh and by the way, I was on the table when this hand took place and villian wasn't a donkey.
In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : 95% of the time we're ahead? really? wow!! I would love to know how you calculated that figure! lol Oh and by the way, I was on the table when this hand took place and villian wasn't a donkey. Posted by DoubleAAA
im hyperbolising obviously ! agree to disagree cba anymore! im nt sying the villian was a donkey but his donk bet was still shockin
In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : im hyperbolising obviously ! agree to disagree cba anymore! im nt sying the villian was a donkey but his donk bet was still shockin Posted by samboram45
Okay but I think his Donk bet was perfectly fine although check/calling is perfectly fine. Check/raising just looks too strong.
Your raise size pre is fine when someone limps in there never folding to a raise anyway so its best to keep the pot small and we have position on him no need to inflate the pot when the blinds go up im happy to play lots of marginal hands in position and make my decisions postflop. Dont raise the flop this is really bad we are ahead most of the time here and a jam folds out all the hands we want to stay in with us just flat the flop.
Lol at this thread Raise/fold flop sucks because Raise villain folds. Uh oh I had the best hand I wanted a call Raise villain calls. I am beat omg I suck Either raise and get it in or call and play Someone ban this Posted by grantorino
I think you're missing the point. We raise the flop x2.2 to see where we're at and to get the turn checked to us so we can control the pot. If we call the flop, then we also have to call both turn and river which we will lose more money. Getting it in on this flop is fine if we're 0-15bbs as we will get looked up far more often by draws, weak Ace and possibly KQ but as we're 50bb stacks we're NEVER getting looked up by a worse hand except for QT and possibly AJ so it's -EV.
If you want the thread closed just don't bother to read it, I personally think this hand is a very good hand for discussion.
If we 2.2x raise the flop and fold we throw away 40% of our stack by bluffing with a flopped 2pr. On top of that, when we 2.2x, and he shoves we're only gonna have to call about 35k to win about 140k and we have 2 Aces and 2 Tens to hit so nearly 20% chance of hitting even if we are behind, which we won't be alot of the time.
If you don't wanna get it in with 2pr here then don't raise pre.
Comments
When we shove what do you expect to call you that we have beat apart from QT and J9s and he won't be showing up with J9s given the fact that he limped EP?
Raising this flop is fine as we will in most cases get a free river card and have controlled the pot. If we just call then villian gets another 2 bets out of us.
@ NColley - So given you flat the flop, then what do we do on the turn as we have got no info as to where we are. Sorry but flatting this flop is just bahhh.
You flat the flop because it allows him to keep betting with his weaker hands. I think if he has KJ here, you're going bust and that's the end of it, but you wanna get the most of the times he has other hands.
The hands that beat us are set Ts, Qs, KJ, AQ and villian will hardly ever show up with QQ and AK here.
We fold out; 22-99, JJ, A2-A9, KQ, KT and possibly J9s.
Hands that call us that we have beat; QT, J9s (AJ debatable), (AK villian hardly ever shows up with this)
Workout the number of combinations that beat us and that we have beat that calls us and then tell me if you still think that shoving this flop is +EV.
So please can you post what hands will call our flop shove for 50bbs aside from QT and possibly AJ?
Edit - I forgot to mention that villian will hardly ever show up with KK and will not call a shove regardless.
I just wasn't sure about the hands you say call when we do shove. Fair point that I missed J9 was OESD, but yeah I still think we can raise the flop (without shoving) and keep in weaker hands than ours, especially when alot of bad players don't realise that calling the raise is gonna leave them virtually committed with a hand that can only be 2nd best.
I am a fish though, so don't give my comments much weight lol.
So for those of you that think that the shove is fine, please can you post what hands that we beat call us for 50bbs.
If he value bets the river we can safely call and still have around 50bbs left.
Like I said, if we shove this flop you tell me what hands do we get called by?
Oh and by the way, I was on the table when this hand took place and villian wasn't a donkey.
If you want the thread closed just don't bother to read it, I personally think this hand is a very good hand for discussion.
If you don't wanna get it in with 2pr here then don't raise pre.