What to do

grantorino

Ok, my first hand at the table

I have a note on villain "nitty, bets small with monsters",but dont remember playing him. He is multitabling

I am 3b blufffing pre, which is questionable imo, feel free to flame

How do I proceed on flop?

Its 5 handed btw, folded to btn

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£60.58
grantorino	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£49.50
	Your hole cards	K 10
BTN	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£85.47
SB	Fold
grantorino	Raise		£4.50	£6.75	£45.00
BTN	Call		£3.50	£10.25	£81.97
Flop
		K 3 6

huuuuume

considering you would cbet this flop a high % of the time if you missed it, logically it would make sense to bet when you hit the flop.

then re evaluate depending on what villain does

rancid

bet

grantorino

If I bet, do I b/f?

If I am called what's my plan on turn

huuuuume

In Response to Re: What to do:

If I bet, do I b/f? If I am called what's my plan on turn
Posted by grantorino

you've inflated the pot pre flop oop with k10 offsuit.  its not likely you're going to have many easy decisions as you go down the streets.  its pretty much all on your reads

TPTP123

In Response to Re: What to do:

If I bet, do I b/f? If I am called what's my plan on turn
Posted by grantorino

Depends on how you think villain would play a set or TT/JJ on this board IP

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

In Response to Re: What to do : you've inflated the pot pre flop oop with k10 offsuit.  its not likely you're going to have many easy decisions as you go down the streets.  its pretty much all on your reads
Posted by huuuuume

Agreed

I always find flopping tpwk oop when I 3b bluff pre tricky. Obv it gets pretty read dependent, but if anyone had any thoughts that would be great

percival09

bet as you would do w/ Q10o. 

if you get raised fyl

grantorino

its much easier when I have QTo

Do I treat KT the same

what do I do if my flop bet gets called, lets say a blank turn

BorinLoner

Why are we wanting to 3-bet bluff with a marginal hand, out of position against a largely unknown player? Especially a player on whom we have a single note which says "nitty" and alludes only to how he plays monsters?

Anyway, I'd prefer 3-betting with 72 to KT. I probably just fold pre-flop but then I'm pretty nitty myself when I'm in the blinds.

Once we get to the flop, I agree we should c-bet. If we'd c-bet with 72, then we should c-bet with top-pair. If he calls, then I'm checking the turn and looking to check-call, though I don't know if I want to check-call both turn and river... hmmm... Probably need to on the off-chance that he floated the flop. At least we know he'll make it cheap for us if he has a monster. lol

If we check the flop, I think we end up check-calling three streets if the board comes out dry. I don't know if I'd like that either, readless. Do unknowns bluff/value-bet with worse on three streets very often?

LOL_RAISE

i would check and do a call

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: What to do:

i would check and do a call
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Okay. I don't hate that. At what point do we give up, though? Give up on the turn or river or just call it down? Let's assume the turn and river are bricks.

LOL_RAISE

well id prob just c/c down on bricks, esp if he starts betting big because of reads in op.

vs nitty player if we bet flop i think all worse made hands will fold unless it has equity like FD's.

were oop deep with pretty marginal hand so id want to pot control / induce bluffs

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

Why are we wanting to 3-bet bluff with a marginal hand, out of position against a largely unknown player? Especially a player on whom we have a single note which says "nitty" and alludes only to how he plays monsters?

Cos I think he folds enough to make it +Ev and I'm not sure flatting will be profitable

Anyway, I'd prefer 3-betting with 72 to KT. I probably just fold pre-flop but then I'm pretty nitty myself when I'm in the blinds.
 
Im stumped as to why 3b 72 would be better than KT when you dont think KT is strong enough to call

Once we get to the flop, I agree we should c-bet. If we'd c-bet with 72, then we should c-bet with top-pair.

Why should i do the same with air as tpwk

If he calls, then I'm checking the turn and looking to check-call, though I don't know if I want to check-call both turn and river... hmmm... Probably need to on the off-chance that he floated the flop. At least we know he'll make it cheap for us if he has a monster. lol If we check the flop, I think we end up check-calling three streets if the board comes out dry. I don't know if I'd like that either, readless. Do unknowns bluff/value-bet with worse on three streets very often?
Posted by BorinLoner

At least you have given an indication of how you would continue. Dont think I would be calling both turn and river, tbh I'd be reluctant to call turn. But b/f then give up sucks as I am bluffing unless he checks back twice. c/c flop sounds ok, but I am asking him to bluff me, whether he knows this idk

AMYBR

bet and play through streets.  Are we going to turn our hand into a bluff catcher and hope 1pr remains the best hand to the river?

Even s nitty player will open the button with avg+ and call a raise with certain dynamics, esp IP. 

We just give away everything by checking.  We'ver been happy to inflate the pot pre, now we need (and should) continue that we have flopped top pair - just as we likely would if we had totally missed.

Am not saying we should go broke, but keeping foot on gas and re assessing if we find suspect resistance

TPTP123

I think BL is getting at the logic similar to the below, ie that KT is too valuable to fold and in the same essence its too valuable to 3bet as it plays better as a defending hand in single raise pots. 

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/full-ring-nl-holdem/renton-theorem-aka-abcd-theorem-156835.html

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

I think BL is getting at the logic similar to the below, ie that KT is too valuable to fold and in the same essence its too valuable to 3bet as it plays better as a defending hand in single raise pots.  http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/full-ring-nl-holdem/renton-theorem-aka-abcd-theorem-156835.html
Posted by TPTP123

understand that concept, but he said he prob folds KT pre

TPTP123

Yeah agreed. KT is a obv flatting hand that plays well imo.. so no reason to 3bet unless we think villlain has a ridic wide call3bet%. 

Using it to fold out hands that we have good equity against is kinda silly.... like what do you think is villains opening raise range and of those hands what do you feel like your folding out? (will reply later this eve as now watching spurs crush utd on MOTD)

BorinLoner

I don't know how often he folds to your 3-bet. I think my point was that neither did you.

I prefer 3-bet bluffing with 72 (obviously an extreme example) simply because you know what you're doing. You're not going to flop top-pair and accidentally make a big pot and 72 is unlikely to be dominated by the opponent's 3-bet calling range as often as KT will be.

I kinda think check-call is a better line now, given a bit of thought and with LOL_RAISE's reasoning making me feel like a bit of a donk... Still, we can't just always be checking when we hit hands and betting when we don't. Maybe with this hand that's better if we don't think we can bet flop, then check-call down or if we don't think there's more value in giving him the chance to bluff.
 
I don't particularly like the term "protecting your hand" but there's a bit of that in the logic I'd apply to betting the flop: You get some value from those draws but you can also think that if he's got JJ or lower he may call one street with just one overcard on the board, even though it's a King. Check-calling down thereafter would seem best. He probably doesn't bet two streets on underpairs, so we're only calling down to see missed draws if he bets both turn and river, I suppose.

BorinLoner

I don't think KT is a terrible hand to call the raise with, I just said I'd fold. That's because I hardly call with anything out of the blinds.

Is that optimal? I dunno.

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

Yeah agreed. KT is a obv flatting hand that plays well imo.. so no reason to 3bet unless we think villlain has a ridic wide call3bet%.  Using it to fold out hands that we have good equity against is kinda silly.... like what do you think is villains opening raise range and of those hands what do you feel like your folding out? (will reply later this eve as now watching spurs crush utd on MOTD)
Posted by TPTP123

Yeah, you could argue its strong enough to call. I'm not so sure oop, which is why I decided to turn it into a bluff. Im oop, villain has initiative and I have a mediocre hand and not great reads