NL50 facing pot sized river jam

LnarinOO

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxx	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£48.25
villain	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£104.24
	Your hole cards	9 5
xxx	Fold
xxx	fold
Lnarin00   (B)	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£121.37
xxx         (SB)	Fold
Villan       (BB)	Raise		£5.00	£7.25	£99.24
Lnarin00   (B)	Call		£3.50	£10.75	£117.87
Flop
		7 3 3
villan	Bet		£6.25	£17.00	£92.99
Lnarin00     (B)	Call		£6.25	£23.25	£111.62
Turn
		Q
Villan	Bet		£11.25	£34.50	£81.74
Lnarin00     (B)	Raise		£23.69	£58.19	£87.93
Villan	Call		£12.44	£70.63	£69.30

ok so wanting to no ppls thought on ranges and lines etc.. i no i have 95 yes and the hands played out, so no should have folded pre rubbish plz..

game- standard NL50

my thoughts and game flow- 

this table was pretty decent in thew way that i felt i had a decent edge over all the players. in this hand i was probaly about 2 hours into the session and had a good understanding on my opponents. the villan in this hand i had noticed started 'playin back' at me and maybe was getting fed up of my antics. i have played a fair ammount with him/her and am guessin but would say probaly break even.. not bad but by no means good..

about 20hands before villan had stacked somone by floppin a set and jus bet bet bet pot on all 3 streets.. i have reads on his bet sizin vs hand strenth which is fairly reliable but not concrete but i am sure that this person will not be balancin this in any way.. 

player notes- 3bet KK from BB, c/bet A78 then snap gives up

   tryin to play back at me?

    bets full pot with nut hands

           snap calls with drawing hands?

           plays starightforward but gettin OOL? 

         

this is all the background info i have on villan, so pre this is my standard open playin deep at 100bb i sometimes go less depending how lazy im being. when villan 3bets im probaly callin 100% and im confortable playin IP regardless of my holding. 

i hit flop pretty hard (NOT) but elect to float based on villans sizin.. as before with nut hands i noticed pot sized bet.. my plan was to jus call and evaluate the turn..

im really unsure if villan is assignin a range for me or is jus too keen to try and play back but as im in possition i can rep a whole load on later streets 

the turn brings added equity and again villan bets a weird ammount which i can try to expolit. im sure with big pairs+ villan would be bettin bigger to get more value. however i still have 9 high so i pretty much click it back.. this sizin still allows me to fold without bein even close to commited if jammed on.. 

when oppo flats i think the top of their range is middle pairs 44-99 maybe 10's and random 7x type hands and possibly some FD's that cbet and barrelled the added equity.. my plan for the river was to bet most or all cards as i believe villan to be fairly weak

ive accidently cut river card off but it was the 5h, i missed the flush but made a pair..BUT now villan jus jams all-in.. so this is where it comes interestin given history, this took me totally by supprise and was unexpected from oppo..

so given this history and apply to this hand do we call? whats villan holding/doin? thoughts on hand? whats the min we call with ? 

intersting..!! thoughts??

              

WHOAMI196

messy hand eh! i know you say dont wana hear fold pre yada yada, but calling the 3-bet pre is v fishy/v bad,, you say he has been playing back at you and so his 3-bets may be light? this still does not justify a call pre with 95 andf makes it worse, 4 bet bluffing is better imo, i dont understand the call myself.

post flop, floating on a paired board; i don't like this personally, there is not many cards that we can rep on the turn or that will improve our equity and the pot is getting big and so bluffing becomes expensive. If i fancy making a play i raise flop and fire one bullet on the turn and then give up.

Raising the turn seems bad also, i doubt you would do this with a Qx, if he has half a brain he will know this and so ur line looks bluffy esp if he has a 7, and why are you considering calling the river jam, his line is strange for sure, are you now putting him on AK? has he bluff/shoved river with air b4? calling the river could make you look like an idiot or a genius lol but 'burning money' is the term i would use  

  

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: NL50 facing pot sized river jam:

messy hand eh! i know you say dont wana hear fold pre yada yada, but calling the 3-bet pre is v fishy/v bad,, you say he has been playing back at you and so his 3-bets may be light? this still does not justify a call pre with 95, 4 bet bluffing is better imo, i dont understand the call myself. post flop, floating on a paired board; i don't like this personally, there is not many cards that we can rep on the turn or that will improve our equity and the pot is getting big and so bluffing becomes expensive. If i fancy making a play i raise flop and fire one bullet on the turn and then give up. Raising the turn seems bad also, i doubt you would do this with a Qx, if he has half a brain he will know this and so ur line looks bluffy esp if he has a 7, and why are you considering calling the river jam, his line is strange for sure, are you now putting him on AK? has he bluff/shoved river with air b4? calling the river could make you look like an idiot or a genius lol but 'burning money' is the term i would use     
Posted by WHOAMI196

as i said playin 200bb deep in position i can justify a call with ATC if i feel i have an edge post flop.. regardless of my holding.. 

playin this deep i would also be balacin with the big pairs and villan has no doubt seen me flat with AA KK  previous. im playin the player not my cards..

as explained earlier i elected to float based on villans sizin.. he had continuosly mashed the pot button with nutted hands/overs so playin in position im gonna go with my reads and play poker.. on the turn his bet is less than 1/2 pot.. he/she to me doesnt seem like the player that adjusts very well so im not too worried about bein levelled or outplayed in any way im raisin the turn as i dont think their hand can take too much pressure.. 

if we think about about their range on the river, i personally cant give them many value hands at all.. all his marginal hands would go for cheap show down and made value hands would have 3bet turn.. what does that leave...?

bugaloo

you say you have a big edge on the table

then i would say playing 9 5 soooted or not is not a good way to optimise that edge

if your edge really is that big then a better spot will be around very soon

as played you now have a tough decision against an opponent you think you have an edge over

making life hard when it does not need to be 

percival09

I think we should definitely flat ott. we're not repping anything, and by flatting we rep pp's which we can take away otr if villain checks, also if we have a set or trips or w/e, calling otf and raising ott would be bad, we'd prob call flop and turn and do something otr. basically I think raising ott with anything is pretty bad 

LnarinOO

i said i felt i had a decent edge on the table and wanna of course i wanna try to be in as many pots as possible.. like most of u im not gonna wait around for AA and be a genius vs sumones KK lololol, 

i dont see how flattin the turn with 9high can be the best line given that villan has shown weak tenndancies and findin it hard to play 'good' in a 3bet pot...ive obv taken him outa his comfort zone so why not exploit this..?? ppl are jus seenin this in a vacum dontt think there was any point postin history or my thoughts cos i dont think ppl read them.. 

i thought this would bring a bit of change/discussion to a borin forum where its mainly a borin post with little imput and a one word responce.. 

Batkin88

If you have an edge post flop why are you raising that turn? The board has paired on the flop, if he holds any pocket pair he is not folding that turn, even AK isn't folding everytime. If the flop came out different then yeah fair enough. He has flatted your raise so he likely holds a PP 99 or up or AK maybe AQ. I doubt he folds to less than a shove on river

LnarinOO

im not rasing to shut down the river.. i was settin up the river jam myself..! 

i havnt given villan credit of being the best player so i think hes not thinking  of my range atall or 'what i m reppin'. so what the borads paired im not expectin my raise on the turn to work but am expectin my jam on the river to get through enough times that i make money given the action.. 

ok so 99+ AK,AQ u think is plausable after he calls turn, same for open jammin river???

do u not think he is completly polarised??

bearlyther

Calling the 3 bet pre is fine if you feel you have an edge and opponant is liable to go crazy postflop prefer a call as opposed to a 4bet pre as most people are good postflop to therefore are edge should be postflop with position.  Like idea of outplaying him but not on this flop.  As played if you have a plan its much better to flat again on the turn as by raising turn we have to think what can we rep and is exploitable.

LnarinOO

id be less inclined to call pre if villan was liable to go crazy 95 doesnt play well enough.. and yea 4bettin is incorrect too imo, jus play poker IP..

as i mentioned i dont feel the need to rep sometin wen the villan isnt thinkin that either, yes my story has to make sense but given the villan and dynamics i really didnt think this mattered too much.. raisin the turn was cos i had 9high, pick up some equity and gave villan a pretty marginal range.. i felt it was a good spot.. my questions are not in regards to what im reppin or flop[ or turn play.. mainly what do we give villan for taking this line and whats the min we call with??

bearlyther

With his sizing could be a pair like 9s 10s js imo.  The thing is it does matter what we can rep by raising turn you rep nothing so by calling turn we can rep more on the river.  Generally its a lot easier to define peoples ranges on the river so we can see what he does on the river and by his sizing we can decide if we can get him off by raising or fire if he checks.

Lambert180

I think the point the OP is making is that the villian isn't assigning him a range and adjusting it based on the hero's actions. It's like playing a complete fish, don't bother repping something if all they're doing is looking at their own cards cos they won't even notice that you're repping something.

offshoot

Pre is fine but the flop is terrible for whatever plan you have. The way you played it i would probably call river though.

LnarinOO

of course i dont mind u sayin that river is terrible, if u explain to me why u say this.. otherwise ill neva belive u..

the river got called ..

rancid

if oppo c/bets give ups when overcards come, why is oppo doing something else here

what was oppo c/bet sizing with KK hand

think your living on the edge of EV here m8'ty

raise flop, maybe fire turn depending on what oppo does
don't really like min raising turn on this board

 call river, oppo seems polarised enough + given supposed dynamic

Curt360x27

Given the description of oppo I think I know who it is. His river jam is always with the nuts/effective nuts here imo. 

Probs A3.

LOL_RAISE

rather 4b pre

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: NL50 facing pot sized river jam:

if oppo c/bets give ups when overcards come, why is oppo doing something else here what was oppo c/bet sizing with KK hand think your living on the edge of EV here m8'ty raise flop, maybe fire turn depending on what oppo does don't really like min raising turn on this board  call river, oppo seems polarised enough + given supposed dynamic
Posted by rancid

villan mashes pot btt with value hands i cant express this more.. so he full pot with KK then wants to get to show down on scare cards..
i dont think villan is comfortable playin deep and in 3bet pots.. this is why i didnt elect to 4bet pre. id rather playpoker in position as i had decent reads on oppo..

given our read that villan doesnt have QQ- AA or the nuts i could raise flop and barrell but it had become apparent that villan so gettin fed up with me and i think would be less likely to believe a flop raise.. same with a 4bet pre.. he could of easily over valued any pair and further bloated the pot..

i did call and il post the rest of hand later after more disccusion.. i no u guys wernt playin at the time but interestin to see how many different lines ppl are sayin..!! fold pre = the worst imo ..

rancid

In Response to Re: NL50 facing pot sized river jam:

In Response to Re: NL50 facing pot sized river jam : villan mashes pot btt with value hands i cant express this more.. so he full pot with KK then wants to get to show down on scare cards.. i dont think villan is comfortable playin deep and in 3bet pots.. this is why i didnt elect to 4bet pre. id rather playpoker in position as i had decent reads on oppo.. given our read that villan doesnt have QQ- AA or the nuts i could raise flop and barrell but it had become apparent that villan so gettin fed up with me and i think would be less likely to believe a flop raise.. same with a 4bet pre.. he could of easily over valued any pair and further bloated the pot.. i did call and il post the rest of hand later after more disccusion.. i no u guys wernt playin at the time but interestin to see how many different lines ppl are sayin..!! fold pre = the worst imo ..
Posted by LnarinOO

Your reads are that oppo c/bets gives up when overcards come and hits pot size when they have it
Flop and turn is niether

So oppo either has a marignal v/h come turn that oppo doesn't want to let go off or has a monster and does'nt always play the same or misses everything and jams it in your eye with bluffs

Given that oppo doesn't like playing 3 bet pots post so oppo seems either keen to bluff you or take you to a place called v/t
Seems unlikely oppo going to be shoving 10's even AQ.

Maybe your reads are incorrect or I am missing something
Fact that oppo jams river polarises to effective nuts or bluff imo


"

about 20hands before villan had stacked somone by floppin a set and jus bet bet bet pot on all 3 streets.. i have reads on his bet sizin vs hand strenth which is fairly reliable but not concrete but i am sure that this person will not be balancin this in any way.. 

player notes- 3bet KK from BB, c/bet A78 then snap gives up

   tryin to play back at me?

    bets full pot with nut hands

           snap calls with drawing hands?

           plays starightforward but gettin OOL?"

bugaloo

ok

you played the hand brilliantly and i agree with everything you have posted

well done

LnarinOO

jesus this forum is difficult..!! im not postin sayin im the greatest, or sayin ive played this hand in anyway perfect..!! tbh im bored of the rubbish posts that deveop tardish answers.. i may post the same hand in a different forum jus to see how different the answers will be and post the link here, that'll be interestin.. i havnt posted that hand to say ' look at me im playin 95 in a 3bet pot vs sum spewtard'.. if u look at my OP u'll see what i was after and thats the reason i tried to detail the game with history- 

so given this history and apply to this hand do we call? whats villan holding/doin? thoughts on hand? whats the min we call with ? 

intersting..!! thoughts??

only one question was answered an thats ur thoughts on hand.. all are welcome to that was lookin for more logical and in depths answers.. maybe askin the wrong forum regs ay ??