I also wanted to ask, at the risk of sounding stupid, what, if any difference , does playing eight handed and having just a BB ante make?. As a pure recreational player, I could do with any insight if I am missing something obvious. Nick
Hi again Nick.
I've never played with a BB Ante,so I can't really help on that, though I'm sure several of the better MTT players will come along shortly and reply.
As to 8 handed as opposed to 9 or 10 handed, it just means we can widen our ranges, and we have to be a little more active. Again, I'm sure far better players will be along in a bit to offer better advice.
Hi Nick, it's mainly to save time. Say normally the aniti is 25 when the BB is 200. Instead of everyone putting in 25 each time, the BB just puts in 200 extra (so effectively is putting in 25 for everyone.) It just speeds the game up, as people often need reminding to post their antes each time and the dealer has to collect them all etc.
I think Nick was asking - & I'd be interested too - not so much what BB ante means, as how does it affect our play, & what adjustments do we need to make?
Presumably, for example, our button & BB calling & raising ranges change considerably?
I also wanted to ask, at the risk of sounding stupid, what, if any difference , does playing eight handed and having just a BB ante make?. As a pure recreational player, I could do with any insight if I am missing something obvious. Nick
Hi again Nick.
I've never played with a BB Ante,so I can't really help on that, though I'm sure several of the better MTT players will come along shortly and reply.
As to 8 handed as opposed to 9 or 10 handed, it just means we can widen our ranges, and we have to be a little more active. Again, I'm sure far better players will be along in a bit to offer better advice.
Hi Nick, it's mainly to save time. Say normally the aniti is 25 when the BB is 200. Instead of everyone putting in 25 each time, the BB just puts in 200 extra (so effectively is putting in 25 for everyone.) It just speeds the game up, as people often need reminding to post their antes each time and the dealer has to collect them all etc.
I think Nick was asking - & I'd be interested too - not so much what BB ante means, as how does it affect our play, & what adjustments do we need to make?
Presumably, for example, our button & BB calling & raising ranges change considerably?
It won't affect me of course. I just pass.
Like you TK, I have never played with a BB ante. When playing with a button ante, it didn't make too much difference to the dynamic, although I would imagine a BB ante would change things more so. That's why I am not over-keen, but do understand the previous points made about a dead button. So I have no practical experience of a BB ante, although I have a few thoughts about it, but probably best for those with hands on experience of a BB ante to reply.
Although there is an argument when everybody is super deep, that the ante is the ante and who put it in is irrelevant, although when shallower this is not the case. If the person in the BB has 8 bigs, that's a 1/4 of his stack right there and with pot odds almost has to call any two.
My argument is that for something that was just designed to speed up the game, has now changed to something that changes the dynamic of the betting. Button ante, with a "go back to the old way" when a dead button, would be better imo.
I like the old way better myself, and yes it does change dynamic in my opinion (although that may be more of mental conception in that in one go I 'feel' like I am putting more into the pot).
Unfortunately, we cannot have everyone chipping in on a dead button because if the previous 5-6 players have put in an ante, then a player is knocked out leaving a dead button, then they are chipping in 'again' when they have already paid the ante for that orbit. On small antes that does not feel so much...but when antes are large trust me players would be up in arms (rightly so).
I also don't like BB or Button antes because if the table goes to (5 or less, depending on whether it's 6-10 players) then the ante is reduced to half price....I see why, but at the same time is that fair to the players who have paid more ante in that orbit? Thoughts?
I'm a tight player, so the dynamic for me is that I am more like to grow a pair and call with ATC when I am short and on the BB and paying the ante. On the button I fold like a girl haha.
Hopefully some of the other more experienced players will give their thoughts as to the dynamic etc...as folding like a girl really isn't a great example
EDIT: but if I have to have a BB or button ante then I prefer a BB ante.
It really doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference where on the table the ante is taken from. It could just as easily be an UTG +1 ante. You put the same amount in each orbit as you would have done under the previous method. The fact you have put in the full ante in one hand shouldn’t have any influence on how you play the hand
It really doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference where on the table the ante is taken from. It could just as easily be an UTG +1 ante. You put the same amount in each orbit as you would have done under the previous method. The fact you have put in the full ante in one hand shouldn’t have any influence on how you play the hand
Normally agree with you, Jac, but not this time. It has a significant impact on how you play the hand. Let me give an example.
Suppose you are at a stage playing 8-handed where the level is 1. 250-500-50 (traditional antes) 2. 400-250-500 (button ante) 3. 250-900 (Big Blind ante)
If you are in the Cut-Off position with a playable hand the bet sizing varies considerably. In 1 above, you may well bet 1000 chips. In 2 you have to bet larger, or it is likely that all 3 other players will be priced in, and 1 of them will have position on you. In 3 above, the min-raise would be 1800, and no-one in their right mind would fold to a min-raise. For a short-stack, shoving ranges would vary in each of the 3 scenarios above
Bet-sizing and ranges differ considerably in each of these 3 scenarios, and in 3 above defending the Big becomes a matter of priority.
The simplest example of how altering the Blinds comes into operation is the "straddle" in Cash games. Anybody who is not altering their play v a straddler is losing a major opportunity. Yet that is just a type of UTG ante.
The current ante position is too slow. It has to change. Personally, I would like to see a 1-round penalty if the Dealer has to ask the same player for the ante 3 times, but failing that, 1 or other of the new ante systems has to prevail.
Finally, there needs to be a clear ruling in relation to shortstacks (when they cannot cover both) as to whether their remaining chips are ante first, or BB first, as otherwise there will be a delay while everyone argues the toss.
Just thought of another, simpler, method of speeding up the antes. If you are sat at the table when the cards are dealt, your hand is mucked. Similarly, if your ante is not there when the cards are dealt, dealer informs you and mucks your cards for that hand (probably after 1 warning).
I recently played 3 live MTTs in Florida. 2 were BB ante and 1 was the traditional way.
BB ante creates such a better playing experience. Even in Florida, where the dealers are usually quick (working for tips on cash games creates that kind of muscle memory) and most tables have an automatic shuffle, it made for noticeably more hands per hour.
Playing the normal ante tournie a week later was annoying. People always on their phones, obnoxious players putting the ante right on the line (even after I pointed out their ignorant behaviour) so shorter dealers had to reach over every hand.
And thats the main reason why I'm a huge fan of it. Every single dealer who I talked to about it loved it and said it made their life that little bit easier.
Hopefully in a year or so the standard becomes BB ante.
Just thought of another, simpler, method of speeding up the antes. If you are sat at the table when the cards are dealt, your hand is mucked. Similarly, if your ante is not there when the cards are dealt, dealer informs you and mucks your cards for that hand (probably after 1 warning).
I also remember reading somewhere that during a normal day 1 of an MTT, BB ante allows for an extra 18 hands to be dealt.
Usually in a live setting we see about 25 to 30 hands per hour. So that is is about 40 minutes of time we are gaining. And time is the only thing that really matters.
It really doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference where on the table the ante is taken from. It could just as easily be an UTG +1 ante. You put the same amount in each orbit as you would have done under the previous method. The fact you have put in the full ante in one hand shouldn’t have any influence on how you play the hand
Normally agree with you, Jac, but not this time. It has a significant impact on how you play the hand. Let me give an example.
Suppose you are at a stage playing 8-handed where the level is 1. 250-500-50 (traditional antes) 2. 400-250-500 (button ante) 3. 250-900 (Big Blind ante)
If you are in the Cut-Off position with a playable hand the bet sizing varies considerably. In 1 above, you may well bet 1000 chips. In 2 you have to bet larger, or it is likely that all 3 other players will be priced in, and 1 of them will have position on you. In 3 above, the min-raise would be 1800, and no-one in their right mind would fold to a min-raise. For a short-stack, shoving ranges would vary in each of the 3 scenarios above
Bet-sizing and ranges differ considerably in each of these 3 scenarios, and in 3 above defending the Big becomes a matter of priority.
The simplest example of how altering the Blinds comes into operation is the "straddle" in Cash games. Anybody who is not altering their play v a straddler is losing a major opportunity. Yet that is just a type of UTG ante.
The current ante position is too slow. It has to change. Personally, I would like to see a 1-round penalty if the Dealer has to ask the same player for the ante 3 times, but failing that, 1 or other of the new ante systems has to prevail.
Finally, there needs to be a clear ruling in relation to shortstacks (when they cannot cover both) as to whether their remaining chips are ante first, or BB first, as otherwise there will be a delay while everyone argues the toss.
I think a few people are getting mixed up here... antes do not count towards your raises, or calls whether its a normal ante structure or a big blind/button ante.
for example, scenario 2: CO opens for 1k. Button wants to call so has to put in 1k, even though they put in 500 ante. The ante does not count!
the only thing having a BB or button ante achieves is speeding up the game, it doesn't effect calling ranges or shoving ranges.
edit: RSPCA pointed out that when your about to be in the big blind, in a big blind ante game and short, it will effect your shoving range a little because you will lose a larger chunk of your stack when you do finally hit the BB. Seems a minor change to me though.
also, ante goes in first if you cant afford both. Same as it does in the traditional ante structure.
8 handed is great too - you have a bit of elbow room at the table and can play slightly more hands because you don't have so many people to get through.
think of it this way: when you are UTG 9 handed, you wont play many hands. well that position no longer exists.
Comments
I think Nick was asking - & I'd be interested too - not so much what BB ante means, as how does it affect our play, & what adjustments do we need to make?
Presumably, for example, our button & BB calling & raising ranges change considerably?
It won't affect me of course. I just pass.
Although there is an argument when everybody is super deep, that the ante is the ante and who put it in is irrelevant, although when shallower this is not the case. If the person in the BB has 8 bigs, that's a 1/4 of his stack right there and with pot odds almost has to call any two.
My argument is that for something that was just designed to speed up the game, has now changed to something that changes the dynamic of the betting. Button ante, with a "go back to the old way" when a dead button, would be better imo.
^^^^
@StayOrGo
Understood Graham, thanks.
Unfortunately, we cannot have everyone chipping in on a dead button because if the previous 5-6 players have put in an ante, then a player is knocked out leaving a dead button, then they are chipping in 'again' when they have already paid the ante for that orbit. On small antes that does not feel so much...but when antes are large trust me players would be up in arms
I also don't like BB or Button antes because if the table goes to (5 or less, depending on whether it's 6-10 players) then the ante is reduced to half price....I see why, but at the same time is that fair to the players who have paid more ante in that orbit? Thoughts?
I'm a tight player, so the dynamic for me is that I am more like to grow a pair and call with ATC when I am short and on the BB and paying the ante. On the button I fold like a girl haha.
Hopefully some of the other more experienced players will give their thoughts as to the dynamic etc...as folding like a girl really isn't a great example
EDIT: but if I have to have a BB or button ante then I prefer a BB ante.
You put the same amount in each orbit as you would have done under the previous method.
The fact you have put in the full ante in one hand shouldn’t have any influence on how you play the hand
Suppose you are at a stage playing 8-handed where the level is
1. 250-500-50 (traditional antes)
2. 400-250-500 (button ante)
3. 250-900 (Big Blind ante)
If you are in the Cut-Off position with a playable hand the bet sizing varies considerably. In 1 above, you may well bet 1000 chips. In 2 you have to bet larger, or it is likely that all 3 other players will be priced in, and 1 of them will have position on you. In 3 above, the min-raise would be 1800, and no-one in their right mind would fold to a min-raise. For a short-stack, shoving ranges would vary in each of the 3 scenarios above
Bet-sizing and ranges differ considerably in each of these 3 scenarios, and in 3 above defending the Big becomes a matter of priority.
The simplest example of how altering the Blinds comes into operation is the "straddle" in Cash games. Anybody who is not altering their play v a straddler is losing a major opportunity. Yet that is just a type of UTG ante.
The current ante position is too slow. It has to change. Personally, I would like to see a 1-round penalty if the Dealer has to ask the same player for the ante 3 times, but failing that, 1 or other of the new ante systems has to prevail.
Finally, there needs to be a clear ruling in relation to shortstacks (when they cannot cover both) as to whether their remaining chips are ante first, or BB first, as otherwise there will be a delay while everyone argues the toss.
BB ante creates such a better playing experience. Even in Florida, where the dealers are usually quick (working for tips on cash games creates that kind of muscle memory) and most tables have an automatic shuffle, it made for noticeably more hands per hour.
Playing the normal ante tournie a week later was annoying. People always on their phones, obnoxious players putting the ante right on the line (even after I pointed out their ignorant behaviour) so shorter dealers had to reach over every hand.
And thats the main reason why I'm a huge fan of it. Every single dealer who I talked to about it loved it and said it made their life that little bit easier.
Hopefully in a year or so the standard becomes BB ante.
Also great to see you are going 8 handed too. WP.
Usually in a live setting we see about 25 to 30 hands per hour. So that is is about 40 minutes of time we are gaining. And time is the only thing that really matters.
Great debate on the respective merits of each format, keep it coming please.
for example, scenario 2: CO opens for 1k. Button wants to call so has to put in 1k, even though they put in 500 ante. The ante does not count!
the only thing having a BB or button ante achieves is speeding up the game, it doesn't effect calling ranges or shoving ranges.
edit:
RSPCA pointed out that when your about to be in the big blind, in a big blind ante game and short, it will effect your shoving range a little because you will lose a larger chunk of your stack when you do finally hit the BB. Seems a minor change to me though.
also, ante goes in first if you cant afford both. Same as it does in the traditional ante structure.
think of it this way: when you are UTG 9 handed, you wont play many hands. well that position no longer exists.