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PROTECT YOUR CARDS?

hijimherehijimhere Member Posts: 40
edited February 2010 in Poker Chat
I was playing in a tournament and had just pushed all in post flop.  I was in position 10 on a table of 10.  While the dealer was gathering in the other players folded hands he pulled my cards into the muck.  The dealer was a member of the public who had also been playing.    At this point there were two of us left, the player to my right who had put in a substantial raise and myself.   This player claimed the pot was his because my hand had been mucked, he expanded that it was my responsibility to "protect" my cards, obviously meaning from other players and the dealer.   The dealer decided to return our bets and to split the remaining chips 50/50.  The guy to my right started claiming he had paired and I openly answered the question that I had not paired so he cited the fact that he had paired as reason enough to claim the pot.   Because of this the Tourny Manager was asked for a ruling, he ruled that the dealer's decision was final and agreed with the dealer's solution.

My question is what do the rules mean about "protecting" my cards.  My card were on the baize behind the play line, the line which surrounds the table and ends on the left and right side of the dealers seat where it comes back at a right angle to meet the table edge.  I assumed that if my cards in play were behind the line and were then abused by a dealer or anyone else I would get the sympathy or have my bet covered.  What is the position as far as the rules are concerned?????
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Comments

  • acebarry10acebarry10 Member Posts: 7,556
    edited February 2010
    This is what i found:

    The main reason to use a card protector is to prevent your cards from being accidentally mucked by another player or the dealer. If your hand is mucked, your hand is dead and you can't retrieve it from the pile of mucked cards.
  • 35suited35suited Member Posts: 2,332
    edited February 2010
    I'm not expert so forgive me if im wrong butttttt I believe your hand should have been mucked and you opponent should have had all the chips.  Chips cant be returned to players once they have been put in the middle,even if theres been an error, and even if the errors not your fault.

    As barry says most people you a card protector to stop the dealer mucking your cards, this can be anything really, just sit it on top of your cards and it shouldnt happen again.

    Gareth
  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s Member Posts: 1,307
    edited February 2010
    You got away a bit lucky here, the fact that the guy had paired doesn't matter in the slightest, the fact that the dealer mucked your cards means that the only player with cards left at the table takes the pot. Harsh when it's not you that has mucked them but poker teaches the harsh lessons in life i'm affraid. Your tourney director should know this but as you made out quite well from it i wouldn't question the decision until it happens again lol
  • dylan12dylan12 Member Posts: 2,343
    edited February 2010
    Wow, you are extremly lucky here - I wish I met more Tournament Directors like you had!!
    Keep a chip on your hand, use a card protector, put your finger on the cards - anything to protect tem - it is your responsibility to protect them from the dealer. The guy was within his right asking for a ruleing because the chips should not have been shared!!
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,714
    edited February 2010

    Wow - you got VERY lucky there!

    Your hand was dead, very dead, extremely very seriously dead, as in dead.

    1) You are never entitled to half the pot. Your hand was dead, killed, kaput.

    2) It does not matter WHERE your cards were, forget the "betting line", it's not relervant. "It is the players responsibility to protect his own cards at all times". Always. If they get accidentally mucked by the Dealer, it is deemed to be YOUR FAULT, as you did not protect them. Protect them with a card-marker, or hold your hands on them at all times.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,714
    edited February 2010

    Roberts Rules of Poker say this.......

    "You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it."
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,714
    edited February 2010

    An example of a "fouled hand".

    If you are in Seat 10, say, & another players cards, when being chucked in the muck, accidentally land on, or touch, your unprotected hand - YOUR CARDS ARE DEAD. Why? Because the cards MIGHT get confused. So both hands are now dead. UNLESS your hand was "protected" with a Card-Marker, or you had your hand on your two cards.

    PROTECT YOUR HANDS AT ALL TIMES. It's your own fault if you don't.

    Oh - & you might respectfully advise your TD to read up Roberts Rules of Poker, his "Ruling" was a complete nonsense!
  • dylan12dylan12 Member Posts: 2,343
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    An example of a "fouled hand". If you are in Seat 10, say, & another players cards, when being chucked in the muck, accidentally land on, or touch, your unprotected hand - YOUR CARDS ARE DEAD. Why? Because the cards MIGHT get confused. So both hands are now dead. UNLESS your hand was "protected" with a Card-Marker, or you had your hand on your two cards. PROTECT YOUR HANDS AT ALL TIMES. It's your own fault if you don't. Oh - & you might respectfully advise your TD to read up Roberts Rules of Poker, his "Ruling" was a complete nonsense!
    Posted by Tikay10
    Wish I had waited 5 minutes because my comments on this matter are below average compared to how you explain things Sir, once again great explenation!!

    I have never met a TD like this before - unbelivable, Im not even sure that I would like to meet a similar TD - rules are there for a reason and should always be obeyd - players make mistakes at times such as not protecting cards - its hard after playing 10 hours to remember everything lol!! But if I had forgotton to protect my cards at any time late in a tourney - I would not complain and certinally would not want the TD to give me half the pot - that is just embarassing - Kick yourself for not protecting them and then move on to the next hand!! Touch wood this has never happened to me, but now I have jinxed it aint I, by saying it has never happened to me - it will happen to me now - and guaranteed it will be during SPT in Luton lol!!
  • hijimherehijimhere Member Posts: 40
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS? : Wish I had waited 5 minutes because my comments on this matter are below average compared to how you explain things Sir, once again great explenation!! I have never met a TD like this before - unbelivable, Im not even sure that I would like to meet a similar TD - rules are there for a reason and should always be obeyd - players make mistakes at times such as not protecting cards - its hard after playing 10 hours to remember everything lol!! But if I had forgotton to protect my cards at any time late in a tourney - I would not complain and certinally would not want the TD to give me half the pot - that is just embarassing - Kick yourself for not protecting them and then move on to the next hand!! Touch wood this has never happened to me, but now I have jinxed it aint I, by saying it has never happened to me - it will happen to me now - and guaranteed it will be during SPT in Luton lol!!
    Posted by dylan12
    Thank you all, being ignorant of the ruling is this respect is I suppose in no excuse but I did follow the dealer and TD not making a meal of it all.  I will make a point of pointing out the rule to the casino TD, what do you do if you can't rely on the dealer & TD?  Thanks again now I know (I do use a coin usually on my cards) I will obviously do the right thing if it ever happers again-which I doubt-but lets hope it's some one else and not me lol lol
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,714
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS? : Thank you all, being ignorant of the ruling is this respect is I suppose in no excuse but I did follow the dealer and TD not making a meal of it all.  I will make a point of pointing out the rule to the casino TD, what do you do if you can't rely on the dealer & TD?  Thanks again now I know (I do use a coin usually on my cards) I will obviously do the right thing if it ever happers again-which I doubt-but lets hope it's some one else and not me lol lol
    Posted by hijimhere
    You don't HAVE to use a coin, or a "card-marker" - a chip will do. Get in the habit, as soon as you get your hole cards, to chuck a chip on top of them. They are then deemed to be "protected" no matter what happens.
  • dylan12dylan12 Member Posts: 2,343
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS? : Thank you all, being ignorant of the ruling is this respect is I suppose in no excuse but I did follow the dealer and TD not making a meal of it all.  I will make a point of pointing out the rule to the casino TD, what do you do if you can't rely on the dealer & TD?  Thanks again now I know (I do use a coin usually on my cards) I will obviously do the right thing if it ever happers again-which I doubt-but lets hope it's some one else and not me lol lol
    Posted by hijimhere
    With regards to the ruling, you have done nothing wrong - it is the fault of the dealer!! Just remember to always put something over your cards - chip, hands anything - especially if your considering an all in!! Best of luck to you on the tables and if there is anything else your never clear ablout then please post!!
  • NoseyBonkNoseyBonk Member Posts: 6,183
    edited February 2010
    This exact thing happened at the 2009 WSOP, see here
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,714
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    This exact thing happened at the 2009 WSOP, see here
    Posted by NoseyBonk
    Good spot Bonky Boy.

    Note she's giving it all the histrionics, the "poor me", the "it ain't fair" nonsense - and it's 100% her fault. Not 98%, not 99%, the full monty, 100%. Because them's the Rules, & have been since Methusulah was a little boy. People need to grow up & learn to be accountable for their own mistakes.

    It's like the debate we see on this Forum so often about Sky Poker that goes "I never knew the Terms & Conditions said that, because I never read them". And who's fault is that?

  • POTTSY82POTTSY82 Member Posts: 220
    edited February 2010
    I know its unlikely, but what would have been the ruling if he had a chip on top and they still got mucked?  Same ruling?
  • IRISHROVERIRISHROVER Member Posts: 7,606
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    This exact thing happened at the 2009 WSOP, see here
    Posted by NoseyBonk
    wow she was all in ,

    you think she would not need to protect her hand after saying all in ?
  • acebarry10acebarry10 Member Posts: 7,556
    edited February 2010
    In short, your hand had "Gone to meet its maker"
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,714
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    I know its unlikely, but what would have been the ruling if he had a chip on top and they still got mucked?  Same ruling?
    Posted by POTTSY82
    Nope. In most cases - where practical - the cards CAN be retrieved if the player can identify them EXACTLY. The player has to be able to name not just the two cards, but the exact suits, too. In most cases, common sense is applied here. The TD will do everything he can to rectify the Dealer's error IF the hand was protected.

    If the hand was not protected - as per little Miss Mardy-Bum here - then it's her own fault, so it's just too bad, & it's an easy Ruling for the TD.

    The players soon learn, you only make that mistake once in your entire poker career!
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 168,714
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS? : wow she was all in , you think she would not need to protect her hand after saying all in ?
    Posted by IRISHROVER
    I'm afraid she does - the rule is quite unambigious - "....players must protect their cards AT ALL TIMES....."
  • webby234webby234 Member Posts: 1,781
    edited February 2010
    a sawnoff shotgun generally does the job
  • hijimherehijimhere Member Posts: 40
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS?:
    In Response to Re: PROTECT YOUR CARDS? : I'm afraid she does - the rule is quite unambigious - ".... players must protect their cards AT ALL TIMES....."
    Posted by Tikay10
    I would have willingly accepted the solution that I get my chips back, that is the bet I just placed--so are you saying that there is no flexibilty at all and that the TD in that instance was wrong????
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