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Ethics of Poker and Coaching
StayOrGo
Member Posts: 12,129
Hi guys. I was looking on the web for an ethical question regarding Poker and coaching.
I couldn't find the actual guidelines that I was looking for however, if I am coaching someone on Zoom and they are playing an active game, clearly I should not instruct them as to what action to take, but is the following acceptable?
1) To review their hand after they have played it.
2) To point out their opponents tendencies, strengths and/or weaknesses.
3) To encourage them to use software like SnapShove when short stacked.
4) To point out their own table image to them.
5) Explaining the ICM considerations relevant at the time.
If anyone could assist with the ethical questions above, or knows any useful links that address this, it would be much appreciated.
I didn't really get the advice I was after online, but did find this:
Poker Is A Great Teacher.
Poker Improves Your Study Habits.
Poker Develops Your Math Skills.
Poker Develops Your Logical Thinking.
Poker Develops Your Concentration.
Poker Develops Your Patience.
Poker Develops Your Discipline.
Poker Teaches You To Focus On The Long Term.
Poker Teaches You That Forgoing A Profit Equals Taking A Loss (And Vice Versa).
Poker Develops Your Realism.
Poker Teaches You To Adjust To Changing Situations.
Poker Teaches You To Adjust To Diverse People.
Poker Teaches You To Avoid Racial, Sexual And Other Prejudices.
Poker Teaches You How To Handle Losses.
Poker Teaches You To Depersonalize Conflict.
Poker Teaches You How To Plan.
Poker Teaches You How To Handle Deceptive People.
Poker Teaches You How To Choose The Best "Game."
Poker Teaches You The Benefits Of Acting Last.
Poker Teaches You To Focus On The Important Subjects.
Poker Teaches You How To Apply Probability Theory.
Poker Teaches You How To Conduct Risk-Reward Analyses.
Poker Teaches You To Put Things In Context And Evaluate All Variables.
Poker Teaches You How To "Get Into People's Heads." (A good thing if used to assist them and not manipulate them)
Next time people give you an ethical "hard time" for playing poker, perhaps quote them the "life skills" above that it can assist with.
I couldn't find the actual guidelines that I was looking for however, if I am coaching someone on Zoom and they are playing an active game, clearly I should not instruct them as to what action to take, but is the following acceptable?
1) To review their hand after they have played it.
2) To point out their opponents tendencies, strengths and/or weaknesses.
3) To encourage them to use software like SnapShove when short stacked.
4) To point out their own table image to them.
5) Explaining the ICM considerations relevant at the time.
If anyone could assist with the ethical questions above, or knows any useful links that address this, it would be much appreciated.
I didn't really get the advice I was after online, but did find this:
Poker Is A Great Teacher.
Poker Improves Your Study Habits.
Poker Develops Your Math Skills.
Poker Develops Your Logical Thinking.
Poker Develops Your Concentration.
Poker Develops Your Patience.
Poker Develops Your Discipline.
Poker Teaches You To Focus On The Long Term.
Poker Teaches You That Forgoing A Profit Equals Taking A Loss (And Vice Versa).
Poker Develops Your Realism.
Poker Teaches You To Adjust To Changing Situations.
Poker Teaches You To Adjust To Diverse People.
Poker Teaches You To Avoid Racial, Sexual And Other Prejudices.
Poker Teaches You How To Handle Losses.
Poker Teaches You To Depersonalize Conflict.
Poker Teaches You How To Plan.
Poker Teaches You How To Handle Deceptive People.
Poker Teaches You How To Choose The Best "Game."
Poker Teaches You The Benefits Of Acting Last.
Poker Teaches You To Focus On The Important Subjects.
Poker Teaches You How To Apply Probability Theory.
Poker Teaches You How To Conduct Risk-Reward Analyses.
Poker Teaches You To Put Things In Context And Evaluate All Variables.
Poker Teaches You How To "Get Into People's Heads." (A good thing if used to assist them and not manipulate them)
Next time people give you an ethical "hard time" for playing poker, perhaps quote them the "life skills" above that it can assist with.
Comments
I think pretty much any thing said in real time is questionable at best from an ethical point of view.
I would have thought it much better for the learner and for the fairness of the site if the learner records a session and then you do the coaching after the event together. Key decisions can be reviewed, you can ask questions like what have you noticed about the player to your left, to your right etc. Ask the player what do they think their table image is at this point and why? Who at the table would have noticed that and is making adjustments against you etc.
In fact all of your specific questions and suggestions are valid after a game has finished but in game they could be classed as (edit:
collusion) an unfair advantage. E.g. Pointing out opponent tendencies in real time that the learner had not picked up for themselves, giving advice on adjusting bet sizing based on a review of a hand while still in the same game.I have never coached or been coached at poker but coaching in real time is not great from a learning perspective. Works in solo sports like golf, snooker etc, but then there is a natural break and you are not commenting on others play. Even then you are not coaching during a competitive event but in practice.
I find that the best learning happens when you are in a reflective state of mind and not in the heat of the game.
So for the quality of the coaching and the learning and the fairness of the site I would suggest it is always better to coach a recorded session rather than in game.
All of that said, it would be extremely hard to police the fairness side of it, and I guess some people must do it that way.
Hopefully some actual poker coaches and people who receive coaching will comment.
I see it as exactly the same as, someone is playing and interested parties are looking on, there is no rule against it.
I dont see anything wrong with someone saying- raise a little higher or lower, you need to 3bet here etc.
The only issue I see is, if the coach is in the same tournament and they get put on the same table. The session ends before this possibility arises.
No-one who loves the game would want to see another players cards.
Yes would be good to see what people who coach or are coached do/think about it, provided they are prepared to come forward and be honest.
Ive had a HUd on my old broken gaming PC, i dont think it helped in anyway at all, I still lost.
I am against a HUD advising a player what to do.
I don't use HUD, never ever have used HUD, is the use, of HUD, if not morally wrong ( as per Skypoker rules and regs) seriously frowned upon? or worse.
pure genuine question, I honestly, always, thought, Skypoker did not, does not allow, any use, of HUD, advance apologies, if way out of the loop.
Fairly sure that any HUD that @mumsie was referring to was not used on Sky Poker.
Standard HUDs that work on sites like Pokerstars wouldn't work anyway on Sky because the Hand Histories are not saved to the hard drive of the player's computer.
If a player were to somehow find a work around to use a HUD on Sky this would be against the rules.
I am unaware of anyone who has used a HUD on Sky, but could never say 100% that no-one ever has.
I certainly used to use a HUD (HM2) for Pokerstars and Party when it was allowed, because virtually all my opponents had them, but I wish they weren't allowed on any sites.
Party don't allow them now, which suits me fine, and like SkyPoker, their Hand Histories can no longer be saved to the users hard-drive.
I am sure @mumsie will reply, but I hope this clarifies.
If you were at a casino, and you had a buddy sitting watching you. I don't think the other players at the table would be too impressed if your buddy was telling you what to do. (especially if they were a better player)
Some of what you are asking applies to the term, what I believe is called, Ghosting. A quick google and the first result sums it up, as per;
https://www.poker-king.com/dictionary/ghosting/
It's an interesting question nonetheless.
I think that should be OK provided the student doesn't offer the teacher any advice.
Don't know what others think?
Your mate observes and sees you facing an all in.
You have 2H 3H
The board
7H 7D 7C 9H 6H
He pipes up, WOW you,ve got a flush mate , call.
Another mate says, shut up, thats a fold.
Whatever you do now is a problem if observers opinions are unethical.
I'm wondering if SkyPoker and/or Pokerstars have any formal guidelines on this?
Not that I'm aware of no.
Let's not beat about the bush - we all know the difference between coaching & ghosting.
The reply by @AKAscotty was exactly correct in my view. It can also be done the other way round, with "student" playing & explaining his thought processes in each hand & street to the coach, who is watching & on the other end of the phone line. But - obviously - the student & coach, when doing this, should NEVER be both in the game.
Either way round, the observer should never tell or advise the player what to do in game. The idea is to get an over-view of the player & then, after the game, go through the spots in detail.
I think reviewing hands in play (just after they have been played) isn't a good idea as I think it can confuse players and take focus away from their play. Personally I think your better to make a note of hands and make the odd note and then review them afterwards.
As long as its once the hand is over I don't have an issue with it though.
I think the rest are fine, the key thing is it not being during a hand. EG saying StayorGo is often bluffing the river in this spot during the hand is actively helping during a hand and is different to saying StayorGo will 3bet a lot of your opens given stack sizes.
Saying you should try and be aggressive with your stack is different to saying you should raise here.
With the other example the teacher talking through spots. This is a great teaching method to understand the logic of what a better player is thinking. This can be done in play or after an event in a hand history review.
If you agree that a student shouldn't be able to advise a coach how to play in real time then you've answered your questions 2,4 and 5 for when you have a student on zoom in an active game. If you break the one player to a hand rule then you're breaking Terms of Service. This will include saying anything that you wouldn't be allowed to say at a live poker table during a hand. So 2,4 and 5 are not allowed. You'd probably get away with 3. 1 is encouraged everywhere apart from live poker tables.
Obviously if your mate texts you in game asking if x hand is a jam for 10bb you're unlikely to text him back saying you wont answer for fear of breaking Terms of Service (especially when their opponents are probably using SnapShove or other software anyway). However, that's very different from looking to profit from a coaching service that does precisely that.
I've never seen this sort of coaching offered and think that's down to the two main reasons that MattBates and Tikay explain. As they say, points 1-5 are the fundamentals of good coaching but will be more effective for both parties if done off table, after the fact. Then the coach has more time to explain the concepts in detail. The student will have time to ask questions and therefore take everything in. It's very hard to learn/teach a new concept if your focus is elsewhere.
Therefore, as Tikay hints, this has the potential to lead to a situation where the "coach" is just saying what they'd do in real time. Blurring the line between "coaching" and "ghosting". Then before you know it we are crowdfunding for Dan Bilzerian because Jungleman has "coached" a little too hard.