In my opinion, it's certainly a grey area. And I'd mostly agree with what Phantom said in the initial reply that to be safe, it would be best to not do any coaching in live play.
If you were at a casino, and you had a buddy sitting watching you. I don't think the other players at the table would be too impressed if your buddy was telling you what to do. (especially if they were a better player)
Some of what you are asking applies to the term, what I believe is called, Ghosting. A quick google and the first result sums it up, as per;
So what about the WSOP main event final table? Players have people watching (quite often top pros) and they will advise players in between hands and on breaks etc.
I guess what I meant was in real-time. If during a hand the spectator advises, or at least tries to influence the player on what action to take would be likely be seen as ethically wrong. As you say though, advising, reviewing etc after hands would be okay.
Each decision a player makes at the table must be made solely by them, and that any advice given to them prior - such as the examples you gave - may or may not be considered.
This is a very interesting thread and as you can probably imagine Graham and I have thought about doing this. Having thought about it more I have changed my mind from my original position.
Originally I thought that as long as no real time help on individual hands was offered by the mentor it would be OK.
Now I really don’t think it is a good idea for the following reasons. 1. Perception of other players. a. How would I feel if I knew a player on the table was being coached while I was playing against them? Would I believe that they really weren’t being offered real-time tips? 2. It’s very difficult when coaching to not step over the boundary and blurt out advice. a. No matter how well-meaning sometimes it is just too difficult not to say something. 3. It’s distracting. a. Discussing other things so you really aren’t getting the best from the game. b. We all know it is not good to be playing and thinking about previous hands. 4. If there is an interesting hand then you want to take time to go over the various learning points in that hand. a. Picking apart an interesting hand can take a long time and needs full concentration. 5. It’s not the best use of the coaching time. a. We are all time poor and there are many hands that can just be ‘fast-forwarded’ if the session is recorded. 6. Personal ethics. a. How would I feel if I actually went on to win an event when I was being coached? It might have been purely down to me but could I be sure of that and would I think it was fair? I don’t think so. With the ability to record sessions I think the learning can be improved and there is no question of possible unethical help.
Next question is can anybody recommend the best way of recording a session? I have used the built in windows recording in the past but it uses an awful lot of memory.
Yes after the feedback on here, I feel similarly to you.
I think when/if you do a recording though, record the whole thing, not just the "action spots."
Sometimes it is the innocuous hands, that one may think insignificant, where the change may need to take place.
I also think it would be beneficial to provide a running commentary of your own play during the recording, so do think sound would be useful.
By doing your own commentary it will remind you of your own thoughts at the time and also provide a "coach/mentor" with an "in" into your thought processes, and why you made the decisions you did, which could lead to very valuable thought exchanges when the hands are reviewed/coaching session takes place, at a later date.
Obviously if you are recording and doing a running commentary, I'd stick to two table max, but probably one is best.
This is a very interesting thread and as you can probably imagine Graham and I have thought about doing this. Having thought about it more I have changed my mind from my original position.
Originally I thought that as long as no real time help on individual hands was offered by the mentor it would be OK.
Now I really don’t think it is a good idea for the following reasons. 1. Perception of other players. a. How would I feel if I knew a player on the table was being coached while I was playing against them? Would I believe that they really weren’t being offered real-time tips? 2. It’s very difficult when coaching to not step over the boundary and blurt out advice. a. No matter how well-meaning sometimes it is just too difficult not to say something. 3. It’s distracting. a. Discussing other things so you really aren’t getting the best from the game. b. We all know it is not good to be playing and thinking about previous hands. 4. If there is an interesting hand then you want to take time to go over the various learning points in that hand. a. Picking apart an interesting hand can take a long time and needs full concentration. 5. It’s not the best use of the coaching time. a. We are all time poor and there are many hands that can just be ‘fast-forwarded’ if the session is recorded. 6. Personal ethics. a. How would I feel if I actually went on to win an event when I was being coached? It might have been purely down to me but could I be sure of that and would I think it was fair? I don’t think so. With the ability to record sessions I think the learning can be improved and there is no question of possible unethical help.
Next question is can anybody recommend the best way of recording a session? I have used the built in windows recording in the past but it uses an awful lot of memory.
Cheers,
Donald
OBS is good for recording sessions but the files are fairly big. You can reduce the file size with a few tweaks though (plenty of you tube videos on how to do this) Plus splitting the session into 1 hour recordings can help if you are sending the recordings to somebody else.
Yes after the feedback on here, I feel similarly to you.
I think when/if you do a recording though, record the whole thing, not just the "action spots."
Sometimes it is the innocuous hands, that one may think insignificant, where the change may need to take place.
I also think it would be beneficial to provide a running commentary of your own play during the recording, so do think sound would be useful.
By doing your own commentary it will remind you of your own thoughts at the time and also provide a "coach/mentor" with an "in" into your thought processes, and why you made the decisions you did, which could lead to very valuable thought exchanges when the hands are reviewed/coaching session takes place, at a later date.
Obviously if you are recording and doing a running commentary, I'd stick to two table max, but probably one is best.
Cheers,
G
In my opinion this method of coaching is by far the most beneficial and time efficient. The highlighted sentence is very good advice. Whenever I have done these sort of things both as the "coach" and "student" there's always more points raised from the hands the other thinks are "standard" than the ones that are flagged. I use OBS, but that's mainly due to the amount of youtube videos available as Waller says. Not sure if there's a better alternative for file sizes to be smaller as standard.
Fairly sure that any HUD that @mumsie was referring to was not used on Sky Poker.
Standard HUDs that work on sites like Pokerstars wouldn't work anyway on Sky because the Hand Histories are not saved to the hard drive of the player's computer.
If a player were to somehow find a work around to use a HUD on Sky this would be against the rules.
I am unaware of anyone who has used a HUD on Sky, but could never say 100% that no-one ever has.
I certainly used to use a HUD (HM2) for Pokerstars and Party when it was allowed, because virtually all my opponents had them, but I wish they weren't allowed on any sites.
Party don't allow them now, which suits me fine, and like SkyPoker, their Hand Histories can no longer be saved to the users hard-drive.
I am sure @mumsie will reply, but I hope this clarifies.
I would advise against the use of HUDs. I used poker co pilot 4 for about 8 months on Stars and 888 and found that I ended up playing against opponents stats instead of focussing on playing them.
I got stuck about $1,000 over the time playing 0.1/0.2 and 0.2/0.5 and micro mtts. My worst ever period of poker on any sites ever.
Fairly sure that any HUD that @mumsie was referring to was not used on Sky Poker.
Standard HUDs that work on sites like Pokerstars wouldn't work anyway on Sky because the Hand Histories are not saved to the hard drive of the player's computer.
If a player were to somehow find a work around to use a HUD on Sky this would be against the rules.
I am unaware of anyone who has used a HUD on Sky, but could never say 100% that no-one ever has.
I certainly used to use a HUD (HM2) for Pokerstars and Party when it was allowed, because virtually all my opponents had them, but I wish they weren't allowed on any sites.
Party don't allow them now, which suits me fine, and like SkyPoker, their Hand Histories can no longer be saved to the users hard-drive.
I am sure @mumsie will reply, but I hope this clarifies.
I would advise against the use of HUDs. I used poker co pilot 4 for about 8 months on Stars and 888 and found that I ended up playing against opponents stats instead of focussing on playing them.
I got stuck about $1,000 over the time playing 0.1/0.2 and 0.2/0.5 and micro mtts. My worst ever period of poker on any sites ever.
Yes I agree.
It can make one lazy with note taking and personal analysis, leading to missing little but important things.
I rarely use a HUD now days, and if I do it's only ever on Stars and I still do all my usual note taking which takes precedent over the stats.
I have now recorded my first session. I just used zoom to record the session and it worked well. Roughly speaking one hour is 100mb so the file size is OK.
I'm an avid book reader and one of them is 'How to Study Poker' by Sky Matsuhashi. He suggests recording a session to go over it yourself later. Talking throughout the session and explaining decisions.
So although I was doing this for Graham to coach on I also found it a really interesting exercise for me to be talking to the video and explaining my reasons for action and also highlighting the spots I found difficult and needed further help - still plenty of them!
It was a very interesting session and probably a year's worth of coaching in that alone. I won't say more about the session till I get my report card from Graham. It is great for the community to share their knowledge and coaching tips. Thanks again for the comments.
I have just finished my session and will start looking at this now.
Also, just to let everyone know, Donald's recorded session is on Party Poker. There are several reasons for this, but mainly that when we review the recording and discuss hand, etc, we may be talking about a player who "looks" loose aggressive, tight aggressive, a nit, etc.
And I felt that with the SkyPoker player pool being so small, it would be a little unfair to discuss individual players and dissect their game to too great an extent, even just with each other.
So rather than say Joe Bloggs is a nit, Jane Doe is loose aggressive where Joe Bloggs and Jane Doe may be well known SkyPoker players, we decided to do it on Party.
On Party Poker, it is very unlikely that we will know any of the players well, so will be more of a case of just saying what we see.
Another reason for Party, is that we are choosing 6 max, deep stacked, hyper turbos as there is a lot of play and fast progression through the blind levels, but also being deep at the start. So it covers many of the dynamics of the game quite quickly, especially as we prefer to single table when doing a recording.
This way we can refer to player's tendencies, based on their play in general rather than specifics of individual players that we may have historical information about, and may know well and/or be "friends" with, or at least friendly rivals.
I hope this makes sense and that you recognise that Donald and I are doing everything possible to preserve the integrity of the game, whilst at the same time, enabling us to help each other improve.
On that note, I need to point out that this is not just a case of me coaching @thisltedu.
Donald has many Poker strengths in areas where I have weaknesses, so it is very much a two way street, and I am most appreciative of the advice and help Donald has given me.
@thisltedu I hope you are OK with all I have said above, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but feel that you would see it like this too?
I have now recorded my first session. I just used zoom to record the session and it worked well. Roughly speaking one hour is 100mb so the file size is OK.
I'm an avid book reader and one of them is 'How to Study Poker' by Sky Matsuhashi. He suggests recording a session to go over it yourself later. Talking throughout the session and explaining decisions.
So although I was doing this for Graham to coach on I also found it a really interesting exercise for me to be talking to the video and explaining my reasons for action and also highlighting the spots I found difficult and needed further help - still plenty of them!
It was a very interesting session and probably a year's worth of coaching in that alone. I won't say more about the session till I get my report card from Graham. It is great for the community to share their knowledge and coaching tips. Thanks again for the comments.
The dreaded Zoom!
There are a few opinions on recordings, read an article on BBC about there being a delay on voice sent and voice received. Sure it was 1.2s or so, this was about 2 months ago and unfortunately cannot find the article now.
Performance and reliability are the weaknesses mainly.
I don't think anyone should try and coach whilst the person being coached is playing at the time it's almost impossible not to ghost. To go through any hand properly it takes too much time compared to what you have whilst playing anyway. Don't really have an issue with people discussing rough play styles of other players in real time e.g. "chappo is a bad reg nit" is ok, probs shouldn't give notes like "chappo limps AA in early position and never limps otherwise"
Comments
Each decision a player makes at the table must be made solely by them, and that any advice given to them prior - such as the examples you gave - may or may not be considered.
Originally I thought that as long as no real time help on individual hands was offered by the mentor it would be OK.
Now I really don’t think it is a good idea for the following reasons.
1. Perception of other players.
a. How would I feel if I knew a player on the table was being coached while I was playing against them? Would I believe that they really weren’t being offered real-time tips?
2. It’s very difficult when coaching to not step over the boundary and blurt out advice.
a. No matter how well-meaning sometimes it is just too difficult not to say something.
3. It’s distracting.
a. Discussing other things so you really aren’t getting the best from the game.
b. We all know it is not good to be playing and thinking about previous hands.
4. If there is an interesting hand then you want to take time to go over the various learning points in that hand.
a. Picking apart an interesting hand can take a long time and needs full concentration.
5. It’s not the best use of the coaching time.
a. We are all time poor and there are many hands that can just be ‘fast-forwarded’ if the session is recorded.
6. Personal ethics.
a. How would I feel if I actually went on to win an event when I was being coached? It might have been purely down to me but could I be sure of that and would I think it was fair? I don’t think so.
With the ability to record sessions I think the learning can be improved and there is no question of possible unethical help.
Next question is can anybody recommend the best way of recording a session? I have used the built in windows recording in the past but it uses an awful lot of memory.
Cheers,
Donald
Yes after the feedback on here, I feel similarly to you.
I think when/if you do a recording though, record the whole thing, not just the "action spots."
Sometimes it is the innocuous hands, that one may think insignificant, where the change may need to take place.
I also think it would be beneficial to provide a running commentary of your own play during the recording, so do think sound would be useful.
By doing your own commentary it will remind you of your own thoughts at the time and also provide a "coach/mentor" with an "in" into your thought processes, and why you made the decisions you did, which could lead to very valuable thought exchanges when the hands are reviewed/coaching session takes place, at a later date.
Obviously if you are recording and doing a running commentary, I'd stick to two table max, but probably one is best.
Cheers,
G
In my opinion this method of coaching is by far the most beneficial and time efficient. The highlighted sentence is very good advice. Whenever I have done these sort of things both as the "coach" and "student" there's always more points raised from the hands the other thinks are "standard" than the ones that are flagged. I use OBS, but that's mainly due to the amount of youtube videos available as Waller says. Not sure if there's a better alternative for file sizes to be smaller as standard.
I got stuck about $1,000 over the time playing 0.1/0.2 and 0.2/0.5 and micro mtts. My worst ever period of poker on any sites ever.
It can make one lazy with note taking and personal analysis, leading to missing little but important things.
I rarely use a HUD now days, and if I do it's only ever on Stars and I still do all my usual note taking which takes precedent over the stats.
I have now recorded my first session. I just used zoom to record the session and it worked well. Roughly speaking one hour is 100mb so the file size is OK.
I'm an avid book reader and one of them is 'How to Study Poker' by Sky Matsuhashi. He suggests recording a session to go over it yourself later. Talking throughout the session and explaining decisions.
So although I was doing this for Graham to coach on I also found it a really interesting exercise for me to be talking to the video and explaining my reasons for action and also highlighting the spots I found difficult and needed further help - still plenty of them!
It was a very interesting session and probably a year's worth of coaching in that alone. I won't say more about the session till I get my report card from Graham. It is great for the community to share their knowledge and coaching tips. Thanks again for the comments.
I have just finished my session and will start looking at this now.
Also, just to let everyone know, Donald's recorded session is on Party Poker. There are several reasons for this, but mainly that when we review the recording and discuss hand, etc, we may be talking about a player who "looks" loose aggressive, tight aggressive, a nit, etc.
And I felt that with the SkyPoker player pool being so small, it would be a little unfair to discuss individual players and dissect their game to too great an extent, even just with each other.
So rather than say Joe Bloggs is a nit, Jane Doe is loose aggressive where Joe Bloggs and Jane Doe may be well known SkyPoker players, we decided to do it on Party.
On Party Poker, it is very unlikely that we will know any of the players well, so will be more of a case of just saying what we see.
Another reason for Party, is that we are choosing 6 max, deep stacked, hyper turbos as there is a lot of play and fast progression through the blind levels, but also being deep at the start. So it covers many of the dynamics of the game quite quickly, especially as we prefer to single table when doing a recording.
This way we can refer to player's tendencies, based on their play in general rather than specifics of individual players that we may have historical information about, and may know well and/or be "friends" with, or at least friendly rivals.
I hope this makes sense and that you recognise that Donald and I are doing everything possible to preserve the integrity of the game, whilst at the same time, enabling us to help each other improve.
On that note, I need to point out that this is not just a case of me coaching @thisltedu.
Donald has many Poker strengths in areas where I have weaknesses, so it is very much a two way street, and I am most appreciative of the advice and help Donald has given me.
@thisltedu I hope you are OK with all I have said above, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but feel that you would see it like this too?
Cheers,
G
There are a few opinions on recordings, read an article on BBC about there being a delay on voice sent and voice received. Sure it was 1.2s or so, this was about 2 months ago and unfortunately cannot find the article now.
Performance and reliability are the weaknesses mainly.
Cammy
Don't really have an issue with people discussing rough play styles of other players in real time e.g. "chappo is a bad reg nit" is ok, probs shouldn't give notes like "chappo limps AA in early position and never limps otherwise"