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Call or Fold

24

Comments

  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    Opponents betting pattern is all over the place. Initial reaction was to vote call. I think fold is the play though readless.

    You are losing to far too many hands simply and only beating bluffs or opponent turning lesser hands into a bluff (unlikely).
  • MISTY4MEMISTY4ME Member Posts: 6,147
    Fold
    WOW wasn't expecting @avonmum to have that.

    Great bet methinks ........ and Notes updated ;)
  • chappo100chappo100 Member Posts: 116
    Fold
    :D:D:D:D:D
  • hoban01hoban01 Member Posts: 80
    Fold
    you need to get rid of him on the turn make a bet 75 percent of pot on the flop if he calls you put the pressure on when the turn comes and make him call his stack off chances are he will fold but sometimes they call and get there
  • MynaFrettMynaFrett Member Posts: 724
    .
    hoban01 said:

    you need to get rid of him on the turn make a bet 75 percent of pot on the flop if he calls you put the pressure on when the turn comes and make him call his stack off chances are he will fold but sometimes they call and get there

    To be fair to you you probably haven't looked at the stack sizes or stack-to-pot ratio too closely but 75% flop would be the worst size to choose here. We only have 3 options on the flop in this spot; we can check, we can bet small or we can shove. We wouldn't be using any sizes in between on the flop because there is no upside and lots of downside. If we use 75% on the flop we simultaneously strengthen their range when called and effectively give ourselves zero fold equity for turns. You are basically advocating turning it into a one street hand which has some merits and wouldn't be a bad choice. That would mean rather than using a small size with range to give ourselves the best price on our bluffs and/or set up a nice stack-to-pot ratio for shoving turns we instead split our range into checks or shoves on the flop.

    The mistake in the hand is probably folding river with this combo after flatting the min donk lead on the turn. I can't decide whether shoving turn over the min donk lead would be good or bad to be honest.
  • hoban01hoban01 Member Posts: 80
    Fold
    MynaFrett said:

    .

    hoban01 said:

    you need to get rid of him on the turn make a bet 75 percent of pot on the flop if he calls you put the pressure on when the turn comes and make him call his stack off chances are he will fold but sometimes they call and get there

    To be fair to you you probably haven't looked at the stack sizes or stack-to-pot ratio too closely but 75% flop would be the worst size to choose here. We only have 3 options on the flop in this spot; we can check, we can bet small or we can shove. We wouldn't be using any sizes in between on the flop because there is no upside and lots of downside. If we use 75% on the flop we simultaneously strengthen their range when called and effectively give ourselves zero fold equity for turns. You are basically advocating turning it into a one street hand which has some merits and wouldn't be a bad choice. That would mean rather than using a small size with range to give ourselves the best price on our bluffs and/or set up a nice stack-to-pot ratio for shoving turns we instead split our range into checks or shoves on the flop.

    The mistake in the hand is probably folding river with this combo after flatting the min donk lead on the turn. I can't decide whether shoving turn over the min donk lead would be good or bad to be honest.
    i would personally have you all in on the turn when you bet 600 and leave a pot sized bet behind i think if i played this hand i would have you on AA or j10 and i would be quite happy to put half my stack in and if i am behind it sucks but i think its rare that you hold the hands mentioned above i would possibly consider shoving pre flop with the stack sizes as well
  • MynaFrettMynaFrett Member Posts: 724
    edited August 2020
    hoban01 said:

    MynaFrett said:

    .

    hoban01 said:

    you need to get rid of him on the turn make a bet 75 percent of pot on the flop if he calls you put the pressure on when the turn comes and make him call his stack off chances are he will fold but sometimes they call and get there

    To be fair to you you probably haven't looked at the stack sizes or stack-to-pot ratio too closely but 75% flop would be the worst size to choose here. We only have 3 options on the flop in this spot; we can check, we can bet small or we can shove. We wouldn't be using any sizes in between on the flop because there is no upside and lots of downside. If we use 75% on the flop we simultaneously strengthen their range when called and effectively give ourselves zero fold equity for turns. You are basically advocating turning it into a one street hand which has some merits and wouldn't be a bad choice. That would mean rather than using a small size with range to give ourselves the best price on our bluffs and/or set up a nice stack-to-pot ratio for shoving turns we instead split our range into checks or shoves on the flop.

    The mistake in the hand is probably folding river with this combo after flatting the min donk lead on the turn. I can't decide whether shoving turn over the min donk lead would be good or bad to be honest.
    i would personally have you all in on the turn when you bet 600 and leave a pot sized bet behind i think if i played this hand i would have you on AA or j10 and i would be quite happy to put half my stack in and if i am behind it sucks but i think its rare that you hold the hands mentioned above i would possibly consider shoving pre flop with the stack sizes as well

    I'm really confused now. You realise that I'm the in position player who has 3 bet pre flop with AK and they are the out of position player who has opened pre, flatted the 3 bet, check called the 1500 on the flop and donk lead 600 on the turn out of flow? Also, stacks are 38bb eff and it's CO vs BU - my range is going to be folding, calling, 3 betting with the intention of folding to 4 bet shoves and 3 betting with the intention of stacking off. I won't be 3 bet shoving 38bb in this spot pre.
  • hoban01hoban01 Member Posts: 80
    Fold
    MynaFrett said:

    hoban01 said:

    MynaFrett said:

    .

    hoban01 said:

    you need to get rid of him on the turn make a bet 75 percent of pot on the flop if he calls you put the pressure on when the turn comes and make him call his stack off chances are he will fold but sometimes they call and get there

    To be fair to you you probably haven't looked at the stack sizes or stack-to-pot ratio too closely but 75% flop would be the worst size to choose here. We only have 3 options on the flop in this spot; we can check, we can bet small or we can shove. We wouldn't be using any sizes in between on the flop because there is no upside and lots of downside. If we use 75% on the flop we simultaneously strengthen their range when called and effectively give ourselves zero fold equity for turns. You are basically advocating turning it into a one street hand which has some merits and wouldn't be a bad choice. That would mean rather than using a small size with range to give ourselves the best price on our bluffs and/or set up a nice stack-to-pot ratio for shoving turns we instead split our range into checks or shoves on the flop.

    The mistake in the hand is probably folding river with this combo after flatting the min donk lead on the turn. I can't decide whether shoving turn over the min donk lead would be good or bad to be honest.
    i would personally have you all in on the turn when you bet 600 and leave a pot sized bet behind i think if i played this hand i would have you on AA or j10 and i would be quite happy to put half my stack in and if i am behind it sucks but i think its rare that you hold the hands mentioned above i would possibly consider shoving pre flop with the stack sizes as well

    I'm really confused now. You realise that I'm the in position player who has 3 bet pre flop with AK and they are the out of position player who has opened pre, flatted the 3 bet, check called the 1500 on the flop and donk lead 600 on the turn out of flow? Also, stacks are 38bb eff and it's CO vs BU - my range is going to be folding, calling, 3 betting with the intention of folding to 4 bet shoves and 3 betting with the intention of stacking off. I won't be 3 bet shoving 38bb in this spot pre.
    i thought you were J9 and had re raised the other guy my mistake i thought the AK had the 15k stack
  • hoban01hoban01 Member Posts: 80
    Fold
    hoban01 said:

    MynaFrett said:

    hoban01 said:

    MynaFrett said:

    .

    hoban01 said:

    you need to get rid of him on the turn make a bet 75 percent of pot on the flop if he calls you put the pressure on when the turn comes and make him call his stack off chances are he will fold but sometimes they call and get there

    To be fair to you you probably haven't looked at the stack sizes or stack-to-pot ratio too closely but 75% flop would be the worst size to choose here. We only have 3 options on the flop in this spot; we can check, we can bet small or we can shove. We wouldn't be using any sizes in between on the flop because there is no upside and lots of downside. If we use 75% on the flop we simultaneously strengthen their range when called and effectively give ourselves zero fold equity for turns. You are basically advocating turning it into a one street hand which has some merits and wouldn't be a bad choice. That would mean rather than using a small size with range to give ourselves the best price on our bluffs and/or set up a nice stack-to-pot ratio for shoving turns we instead split our range into checks or shoves on the flop.

    The mistake in the hand is probably folding river with this combo after flatting the min donk lead on the turn. I can't decide whether shoving turn over the min donk lead would be good or bad to be honest.
    i would personally have you all in on the turn when you bet 600 and leave a pot sized bet behind i think if i played this hand i would have you on AA or j10 and i would be quite happy to put half my stack in and if i am behind it sucks but i think its rare that you hold the hands mentioned above i would possibly consider shoving pre flop with the stack sizes as well

    I'm really confused now. You realise that I'm the in position player who has 3 bet pre flop with AK and they are the out of position player who has opened pre, flatted the 3 bet, check called the 1500 on the flop and donk lead 600 on the turn out of flow? Also, stacks are 38bb eff and it's CO vs BU - my range is going to be folding, calling, 3 betting with the intention of folding to 4 bet shoves and 3 betting with the intention of stacking off. I won't be 3 bet shoving 38bb in this spot pre.
    i thought you were J9 and had re raised the other guy my mistake i thought the AK had the 15k stack
    would still put it all in on the turn with AK if you put 10 bigs in pre then i think you have to be all in with top pair top kicker
  • ChuggsieChuggsie Member Posts: 3
    Fold
    Decent argument to shove flop, but turn was a shove. FWIW.
  • thefallthefall Member Posts: 1,963
    Fold as I don't understand the graphics hope it worked out though : )!
  • BeefsterBeefster Member Posts: 6
    Fold
    I think as played the river fold is fine. It's what I voted for.

    Where I think the error lies is with the flat call on the turn. I generally would treat a min donk lead like that as an effective check, as mostly it's a blocking bet/attempt to get to river cheaply. I would have raised around half pot on turn. That communicates the strength of your hand and may prevent the river donk jam. If he comes over the top of a turn raise then you can consider getting away from the hand there.

    I also prefer a flop bet sizing of 30-40% of pot rather than the 25% that you used given the flop has a degree of co-ordination.
  • MohicanMohican Member Posts: 1,419
    C bet too small. A larger C bet pot commits so calling any reshove. Decent argument for shoving flop. A larger c bet makes an easy shove on turn. As played deffo getting it AI on turn.
  • SCOTFOXSCOTFOX Member Posts: 179
    I would have just shoved with my AK pre flop and saved having a dilemma. Fire the chips in if you think you're ahead and give weaker players an ultimatium. If the other guy has AA or KK you obviously have a problem but i prefer to aggressive with big cards.
  • Humphrey43Humphrey43 Member Posts: 59
    MynaFrett said:

    You have no noted history/reads on opponent. Do you call river as played?

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    Chub532Small blind150.00150.008605.00
    Jimbob1963Big blind300.00450.0012570.00
    Your hole cards
    • K
    • A
    ellimae9Fold
    BACHEY1966Fold
    avonmumRaise900.001350.0015860.00
    MynaFrettRaise2700.004050.008710.00
    Chub532Fold
    Jimbob1963Fold
    avonmumCall1800.005850.0014060.00
    Flop
    • Q
    • K
    • 5
    avonmumCheck
    MynaFrettBet1500.007350.007210.00
    avonmumCall1500.008850.0012560.00
    Turn
    • 9
    avonmumBet600.009450.0011960.00
    MynaFrettCall600.0010050.006610.00
    River
    • 3
    avonmumAll-in11960.0022010.000.00
    MynaFrett
    What tournament was it?
  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,012
    edited May 2023
    One in June 2020
  • SCOTFOXSCOTFOX Member Posts: 179
    Essexphil said:

    Call

    Not loving life-probably better to shove on the turn.
    But nearly half your chips already in, 3-1 on your money...sigh call for me

    You just called with all your chips for ALL your chips with POCKET TWO's You. I would suggest someone with your limited knowledge should stick to learning to play themselves before handing others advice! Sheesh. You were previous 'noted' as donk, and today you confirmed my thoughts.
  • SCOTFOXSCOTFOX Member Posts: 179
    SCOTFOX said:

    Essexphil said:

    Call

    Not loving life-probably better to shove on the turn.
    But nearly half your chips already in, 3-1 on your money...sigh call for me

    You just called with all your chips for ALL your chips with POCKET TWO's You. I would suggest someone with your limited knowledge should stick to learning to play themselves before handing others advice! Sheesh. You were previous 'noted' as donk, and today you confirmed my thoughts.
    Were you hoping i had A2 so you had better than a 50/50 chance or do you just blabble on about maths on poker chat?
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    Call
    SCOTFOX said:

    Essexphil said:

    Call

    Not loving life-probably better to shove on the turn.
    But nearly half your chips already in, 3-1 on your money...sigh call for me

    You just called with all your chips for ALL your chips with POCKET TWO's You. I would suggest someone with your limited knowledge should stick to learning to play themselves before handing others advice! Sheesh. You were previous 'noted' as donk, and today you confirmed my thoughts.
    This was originally a very interesting thread. Players whose opinions I respect were on both sides of this one. Which is always a mark of when something is interesting.

    You can mark me down as a "donk" with "limited knowledge"-that's fine by me.

    I've been playing poker since 2006. I have a separate poker bank account. Which tells me I have made a profit every single calendar year. Running total of profit is rather a lot of money. And a major part of why I was able to retire at 53.

    It could be that I have been a very lucky donk, over 17 years and tens of thousands of tournaments. And that you have a soul read on me.

    Or it could be that you need to work out whether your notes are any good.

    Me? I don't care what you do either way.
  • SCOTFOXSCOTFOX Member Posts: 179
    Essexphil said:

    SCOTFOX said:

    Essexphil said:

    Call

    Not loving life-probably better to shove on the turn.
    But nearly half your chips already in, 3-1 on your money...sigh call for me

    You just called with all your chips for ALL your chips with POCKET TWO's You. I would suggest someone with your limited knowledge should stick to learning to play themselves before handing others advice! Sheesh. You were previous 'noted' as donk, and today you confirmed my thoughts.
    This was originally a very interesting thread. Players whose opinions I respect were on both sides of this one. Which is always a mark of when something is interesting.

    You can mark me down as a "donk" with "limited knowledge"-that's fine by me.

    I've been playing poker since 2006. I have a separate poker bank account. Which tells me I have made a profit every single calendar year. Running total of profit is rather a lot of money. And a major part of why I was able to retire at 53.

    It could be that I have been a very lucky donk, over 17 years and tens of thousands of tournaments. And that you have a soul read on me.

    Or it could be that you need to work out whether your notes are any good.

    Me? I don't care what you do either way.
    I might have slightly more respect for you if YOU had shoved with 22, however you BET 1800, then called a re raise of 13,127 more.

    What did you expect the other guy to have when you got re raised and called for ALL your chips?

    I could even understand if it was a 28p or 55p game where you just wanted the poker points, but in a tournament it is pathetic to try and justify it.

    By all means carry on playing your way but please do not make out that you are some kind of class professional player. ha ha

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