Keeping On Grinding

PkDevil · December 2016

So this post is just intended as a heart to heart warmer for all those players out there like me struggling to make anything (or indeed just not to lose a lot) playing online Poker.

I've been playing hold em for 3 years on and off now. To begin with it was just little friendly home games with friends for a quid here a quid there, then it progressed to online and now I play pretty much everyday here at Sky - DYMs, Cash, Free-rolls.

I'll be honest. It's proving to be hard. I hoped to make my living off online Poker and now I'm thinking about relegating it to just a side hobby and going back to regular work. I knew it would be tough, under no illusions, but I'm just not sure it is profitable for me.

Having said that, this post is not about defeat and loss, it is about continuing on and fighting to overcome the odds of actually pulling it off. I just wanted to say if you too are struggling like I am to make anything and are thinking about giving it up - then just remember you are not alone. Also remember this....

Everything takes time to learn and to get better at. I'm not giving up and hopefully so too will those of you whom are not in serious debt (I'm being serious because that is a situation that cannot be ignored).

markycash · December 2016

This is an interesting topic in my opinion as so many people either try playing full time or would like to try it.

I mean there are many people doing it, so we at least know it is possible! Also what is the down side? Play a game you enjoy more often and not have to go to work, it is a no brainer surely?

Well if I had (i) been offered robust advice 10 years ago & (ii) listened to said advice it could have been invaluable. That said, I will offer a few tips, most of which I have learned the hard way and you or anyone thinking of playing full time can give them deeper thought or chuck them in your cognitive recycling bin.

Do you enjoy the game enough to make it your vocation? It might be fun grinding a few days a week but are you still going to have the hunger to play, and play well, after clocking up 60+ hours at the tables that week and running something akin to the inverse of Usain Bolt? If your enjoyment of and dedication to the game is not somewhere almost bordering on obsessive then the first hurdle will likely prove to be insurmountable.

Are you good enough? Hitting a big win early on doesn't mean you are good enough. It may mean you are good enough or it may mean you have been lucky. If I fluked a £10k win on the lottery I wouldn't consider playing the lottery as a full time profession. I would realise it was luck. Play a very large sample size of games, look at the hard maths, be honest, and see if you have the desired ROI.

Do more maths... How much do you need to live on? Everyone is different so it depends on individual circumstances. If you have a bank account like Roman Abramovic or you have other income and are just looking for some cream on top then the requirements are going to be different from someone with a house to run, rent to pay and kids to feed. The average UK income is a smidgen over £500 a week so let us run with that as an example. If you have a rock solid 10% ROI then that means getting through £5,000+ in buy ins per week, is this realistic for you? That figure is not necessarily allowing for any time off, investment for the future, bankroll growth, money aside for a rainy day or forays into the live scene.

Can you deal with the social and health impacts of playing full time? Will you be able to stay healthy despite doing a pretty convincing mannequin challenge for a significant chunk of the week? It can be hard staying fit and healthy when spending so much of the week staring down at a computer screen while counting the minutes down to 55 minutes past the hour so you can finally nip to the loo and throw that Rustler's burger in the micro. With the likely extra hours you will be committing compared to 'regular jobs'... will you be able to maintain friendships, spend time with the kids, be attentive to your partner?

These are just a few completely basic things to consider for anyone giving thought to playing full time. After 7 years playing full time and maintaining very consistent and profitable results I realised that the way I was doing things was unsustainable. I realised I needed more funding behind me, more time to spend with my family, my fitness was nosediving and there was so much stress to continually meet financial commitments.

So in light of that would I personally advise against playing poker full time?

Absolutely not! As mentioned, we are all different. I would advise being very honest with yourself and considering the points above. Playing a game you enjoy for a living, travelling, meeting new people and experiencing the rush of the bigger wins can be such a truely amazing buzz. Ironically that is why I stopped playing full time; so I could go back to education, get solid qualifications and a reasonable paying job behind me so I can then return to playing full time at a point in the future on a much more sustainable footing.

Playing full time can be a great experience. It comes at a price though and can become challenging in the extreme.

I sincerely wish anyone trying it the very best of luck!

pompeynic · December 2016

Well Marky,

You have obviously walked the walk and can talk the talk, very nicely written.

Essexphil · December 2016

In Response to Re: Keeping On Grinding:

Well Marky, You have obviously walked the walk and can talk the talk, very nicely written.
Posted by pompeynic

Completely agree.

I have had 3 spells of playing poker full-time. Downswings are mentally brutal in a way like nothing else I know, and there are numerous downsides to playing full-time (not least of which is that it is waaaaay harder now than, say, 5 years ago.

That said, it can be kinda fun occasionally

PkDevil · December 2016

First of all, thank you very much for that informative and helpful response markycash. It has certainly given me a few things to think a little harder about to say the least. Life-balance is definitely a concern for me. I know for a fact that my physical activity (and fitness/health inevitably) have deteriorated a bit since taking the Poker more seriously. I used to go out walking quite a lot but that has taken a back seat and so have other activities I used to enjoy a bit more like going to the cinema to watch a movie as a personal escape from the world full-stop....I want to take the Poker seriously but at the same time I want to live, obviously from what you were saying something that has come to the forefront for you.

Money-wise, off my head (not good enough I know) I would be happy with making somewhere in the region of £40-£50 a day collectively once it all has been worked out....although I know that Poker can have its bad runs when you have to suck it up for a bit. Obviously, more would be nice but right now I just want to cover all the usual stuff - rent, bills, food, odd days/meals out for me and the girlfriend....The extras can wait for a bit.

I certainly enjoy the game enough to have it as the only source of income but I enjoy playing online so I guess my fears are about security in the long run if things change with the gambling scene in the UK and they become a bit stricter with online Poker and limit what is possible. However, having said that, job security is an issue no matter what you do.

Great reply by the way. Having such a positive and useful response is certainly a motivator to work hard to get things where they need to be.

HaveaA1Day · December 2016

In Response to Keeping On Grinding:

CashPosted by PkDevil

My advice would be to just focus on this, and leave the other stuff for another day. Also get coaching, I assume your playing micros to, so obvious its expensive for you, I would join a CFP program like this

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/164/cash-game-poker-coach-listings/bluffthespot-coaching-profit-1629327/

BigHawk89 · December 2016

Your in serious debt and wanting to play poker full time? You need alot of money behind you to even think of it! Why don't you just get a job and play poker on the side as a side income? I'm sorry to be abit harsh but don't really know many pros who play dyms and freerolls as their main game.

IH8UButler · December 2016

To quote David Brent: "Pipe dreams are good, because, when it doesn't work out, you can say; "at least I gave it a go"

Sounds like you sounds like you haven't thought this through. You say you are aiming to make £50 a day. Assuming you work a 37.5 hour week that works out less than min wage. As you aren't paying tax you will get around same take home as a full time min wage job but with no NI credits (so no state pension), no annual leave or sick pay etc. If you need to grind more than 37.5 hours to make your £50 a day avg then you will be earning much less than min wage.

There are some advantages, working from home, set your own hours etc but these are minimal compared to what you are giving up. I could go on but you get the picture.

My advice would be to get a job or go on jobseekers until you can. This will mean you are building up NI credit and have some reliable income each month. I appreciate the job market is pretty **** at the moment and don't get me started on the disgrace that is zero hour contracts, but if you are in work it will be easier to either move up or use skills to develop into something decent. I could be wrong but you sound like a young guy so you have plenty of time to get qualifications or a trade etc and earn decent money with a lot less stress than grinding poker.

In the meantime grind on the side, if you make £50 a day full time, playing 1-2 hours a day at prime time you should still make a steady couple hundred a month to top up wages/ benefits. Poker is a very useful skill as if you can play profitably even at small stakes you will never be fully reliant on the state, which in my view is is invaluable, and probably will be more so in the years to come. To me though it will always be a side income and last resort safety net rather than something I would want to do full time.

One caveat - Its not clear from your first post if you are in debt, if you are I would clear that first before reloading any of your own money into poker.

Tikay10 · December 2016

Hi PK,

You said that, playing DYM's, cash, & Freerolls......

"....I would be happy with making somewhere in the region of £40-£50 a day...."

I can't see what cash games you may or may not play, but a quick peruse of Sharkscope shows us you are playing 5 or 6 x DYM's per day. These are usually £0.25p, £0.50, & £1.

You also play a MTT Freeroll every 3 or 4 days.

I need to be painfully blunt here. You are NEVER going to make £50 per day, day after day, playing at these levels. In fact, you could not make £5 per day playing 6 games per day at those levels. Ever.

You don't have to take my word for it - other experienced players will come on the thread later, I expect, & say exactly the same thing.

Even the very best player on this site could not make £50 per day playing half a dozen 25p, 50p & £1 DYM's each day. It is IMPOSSIBLE. £50 per day is £18,000 per year. I doubt there are more than a handful of players on the whole of Sky Poker who make that much every year playing SNG's or DYM's. And those guys play big stakes, £20, £50, £110, not 25p DYM's.

It also seems to me that you only play 1 table at a time. To have any chance of making any decent money at DYM's, you'd need to learn to multi table. (Minimum 5 or 6 at a time).

I'm all for "never giving up", "persevering", "always be optimistic", "glass half full" & all those things. But we also have to face reality.

Please face reality - you cannot do it.

Tikay10 · December 2016

You also wrote;

".....Having said that, this post is not about defeat and loss, it is about continuing on and fighting to overcome the odds of actually pulling it off.

Everything takes time to learn and to get better at. I'm not giving up......"

You MUST give up mate - you cannot possibly do it at these levels. Nobody on earth could. It's impossible.

You need to treat poker as a hobby, not a means of income. If you have a steady income, by all means play a bunch of DYM's every day with money you can afford to lose. But trying to earn money at those volumes and levels simply CANNOT BE DONE BY ANYONE.

If you want some advice & tips on improving your game, fire away, I'll try to help, & so will many far better players.

Good luck fella, but please face reality.

PkDevil · December 2016

In Response to Re: Keeping On Grinding:

Your in serious debt and wanting to play poker full time? You need alot of money behind you to even think of it! Why don't you just get a job and play poker on the side as a side income? I'm sorry to be abit harsh but don't really know many pros who play dyms and freerolls as their main game.
Posted by BigHawk89

No, I'm not in serious in debt. As it was a post intended to motivate people who were struggling like, that if they were in serious debt to take the Poker with caution because I know people who have been screwed playing Poker whilst in debt or on the verge of it....

My own bank account is quite reasonable from having done Ebay sales for a while and was built up whilst in full-time work. However, doing that never allowed me to focus on the Poker as I wanted and I want to take it serious. So I put my back to the wall and am in a transition phase of improving my game to jump up a little in stake levels.

PkDevil · December 2016

Thank you very much for all your feedback. I am certainly open to constructive enlightenment. Failing to learn from stronger players is afterall a cardinal sin.

That's a great link there A1 and much appreciated :-)

Ok look. I am no illusion that at the stake levels I play at the present time that funding a living (at min wage even) is none viable. I haven't made myself clear enough though. I have a bank account behind me from other funds. The Poker is something I am aiming to improve to allow it to overtake and be my main source of income....Obviously though I have started at the lowest stakes to be cautious and develop a system or systems to enable me to learn how to play different games, find which works for me, and then I will progress.

There is another thing. I'm not a quitter. And I figured that in order to become good at Poker I had to focus on it solely. And if it turns out that I sink - fine. But you can't become great at something unless you treat it as life or death.

I'm at a point where I feel that I am starting to turn around. I am much better at reading players and situations than what I was and I haven't come to this point to give up. Let me make that clear.....Because if every player gave up before or during the transitional period (by which I mean the period where they have learnt the basics and are now pushing off from that and able to apply more advanced plays to start earning profit) then there would be few if any pro-players at all because nobody would play long enough to start winning....

Did any of the profitably players start off making money from day 1? No, they lost a ton load first and they wanted to blow their god-**** brains out on occasion because they wondered what the heck they were doing and if they were complete and utter morons for thinking it was possible.

I'm never going to allow myself to be in debt from Poker. I will never risk my entire life savings or bank roll. Never. I'm not stupid....Having said, I will put my balls to the wall and fight to get to where I want to be.

I'm a low-level and somewhat weak player but I tell you this right now....

I am going to turn this around. I am going to find a way of making money from this game. I am going to develop my own system and styles of play and I am going to up my game til I get the money and life I want.

And if I have to go back to other sources of income to float the boat, then fine. But I am going to become one of the greatest Poker players of all time.

Jac35 · December 2016

Good luck

MP33 · December 2016

In Response to Re: Keeping On Grinding:

Thank you very much for all your feedback. I am certainly open to constructive enlightenment. Failing to learn from stronger players is afterall a cardinal sin. That's a great link there A1 and much appreciated :-) Ok look. I am no illusion that at the stake levels I play at the present time that funding a living (at min wage even) is none viable. I haven't made myself clear enough though. I have a bank account behind me from other funds. The Poker is something I am aiming to improve to allow it to overtake and be my main source of income....Obviously though I have started at the lowest stakes to be cautious and develop a system or systems to enable me to learn how to play different games, find which works for me, and then I will progress. There is another thing. I'm not a quitter. And I figured that in order to become good at Poker I had to focus on it solely. And if it turns out that I sink - fine. But you can't become great at something unless you treat it as life or death. I'm at a point where I feel that I am starting to turn around. I am much better at reading players and situations than what I was and I haven't come to this point to give up. Let me make that clear.....Because if every player gave up before or during the transitional period (by which I mean the period where they have learnt the basics and are now pushing off from that and able to apply more advanced plays to start earning profit) then there would be few if any pro-players at all because nobody would play long enough to start winning.... Did any of the profitably players start off making money from day 1? No, they lost a ton load first and they wanted to blow their god-**** brains out on occasion because they wondered what the heck they were doing and if they were complete and utter morons for thinking it was possible. I'm never going to allow myself to be in debt from Poker. I will never risk my entire life savings or bank roll. Never. I'm not stupid....Having said, I will put my balls to the wall and fight to get to where I want to be. I'm a low-level and somewhat weak player but I tell you this right now.... I am going to turn this around. I am going to find a way of making money from this game. I am going to develop my own system and styles of play and I am going to up my game til I get the money and life I want. And if I have to go back to other sources of income to float the boat, then fine. But I am going to become one of the greatest Poker players of all time.
Posted by PkDevil

Fair play PK. You seem quite determined to do it. If you,ve got the time to learn and practise then go for it. Its not gonna happen overnight but if you stay committed to it i,m sure you could be a winning player. I,d just listen and take on board all the advice given and certainly don,t give up a gtd income for it until you,ve been winning for a while - GL

percival09 · December 2016

Talk is cheap OP. Bring it.

BigBluster · December 2016

I have not posted in a long time but feel compelled to comment.

To the OP I say most sincerely: do not waste your energy and talents playing this game. If you put the same energy, enthusiasm and time into your career and relationships they will reward you much more than poker ever will.

And those superstar players you see on TV? Well maybe 100 million people have played poker. Now imagine drawing a bell curve covering 100 million - mathematics alone shows that most if not all of the superstars are simply at the right end of the curve. They are lucky.

Please don't waste your life pursuing this.

BB

PkDevil · December 2016

I only said about becoming one of the greatest ever Poker players because I was starting to get irritated at the negativity of some of the replies. I'm under no illusion that the likes of Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey are two of a very very small group.

Ok, I'm going to hit the baseball back at you now. You've got under my skin....

This post was not a cry out for opinions about whether or not I should quit Poker. It was an honest post about finding Poker tough, which most players do, and reaching out to others finding things tough to give them some reassurances they are not alone - that was it.

Now a number of you are telling me to quit Poker. Why the **** should I quit Poker just because you tell me to? Give me your opinion by all means but there is a difference between saying "I think you would be better off quitting in my humble (or not so humble) opinion" and "Oh I think you should just give Poker up...because well I said so"

Gee whizz, the balls of some you folks is ridiculous....

I am learning the game. I know my game is not good enough right now to make a living off. Tell me which one of you, if any, was making a good profit (or indeed a profit at all) within your honeymoon period. Probably none of you, and you tell me to quit because I'm not making a profit right off the bat?

My position is this. I am learning. My hope would be to get to a point where I can make a living (not from what I am playing now - I am testing different sub-games to see which I would prefer) but like I said, I'm happy to go back to work and do other stuff alongside it if necessary.

Right that's it. I haven't got anything more to say on this subject.

Thank you for all your replies. Over and out.

jordz16 · December 2016

No one would want you to quit playing.. im sure 99% of the people giving advice would say its a bad idea to even be speaking about playing professionally. Just play poker for fun, try and learn and improve your game and if in 2-3 years time you are making a decent profit each month then you can look at seeing if you want to start taking it more seriously

percival09 · December 2016

In Response to Re: Keeping On Grinding:

I only said about becoming one of the greatest ever Poker players because I was starting to get irritated at the negativity of some of the replies. I'm under no illusion that the likes of Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey are two of a very very small group. Ok, I'm going to hit the baseball back at you now. You've got under my skin.... This post was not a cry out for opinions about whether or not I should quit Poker. It was an honest post about finding Poker tough, which most players do, and reaching out to others finding things tough to give them some reassurances they are not alone - that was it. Now a number of you are telling me to quit Poker. Why the **** should I quit Poker just because you tell me to? Give me your opinion by all means but there is a difference between saying "I think you would be better off quitting in my humble (or not so humble) opinion" and "Oh I think you should just give Poker up...because well I said so" Gee whizz, the balls of some you folks is ridiculous.... I am learning the game. I know my game is not good enough right now to make a living off. Tell me which one of you, if any, was making a good profit (or indeed a profit at all) within your honeymoon period. Probably none of you, and you tell me to quit because I'm not making a profit right off the bat? My position is this. I am learning. My hope would be to get to a point where I can make a living (not from what I am playing now - I am testing different sub-games to see which I would prefer) but like I said, I'm happy to go back to work and do other stuff alongside it if necessary. Right that's it. I haven't got anything more to say on this subject. Thank you for all your replies. Over and out.
Posted by PkDevil

hi

jdsallstar · December 2016

Pk I don't think people are saying quit the game I think they're saying don't attempt to make this your main source of income. I think it's because it's such a leap from where you are now from where you would need to be.

Why not play in your spare time, learn and develop your game and then down the line of your winning enough then you can then go to full time player if that is still your aim and desire. Most of the poker traffic and games (on sky anyway) is in the evenings.

Personally I would never consider it is a full time occupation the mental pressure and discipline must be incredible. That on top of the unsocialable hours I think would rule it out for me. Probably suits some people perfectly though.

I know you think some of the above are shooting down your plans for no good reason and you didn't want/ask for those responses but I think the posters above are trying to make you aware of the pitfalls and difficulties involved. Very very few players can make a career out of poker and even those that can often choose not to due some of the difficulties involved.

Whatever you decide to do good luck and i hope you enjoy your poker!

MattBates · December 2016

There is a big difference between playing full time and giving up poker. You have hardly played any games and are talking about doing it full time which is quite a stretch. There are often threads like this so people are giving their advice but you don't seem to want to listen to it. Should people lie and say its a great idea for you to think of going pro when you have played less than 1000 games (and a good chunk of them were Russian roulettes!) For context if you are playing SNG full time I would of thought your lifetime volume is the volume you would be putting in every month.

Poker is tough and its getting harder. Getting better at poker is something we all strive to do. You are trying to go from a losing position to making a full time income from the game, this isn't an easy thing to do. You said about it being relegated to a hobby and this is the best thing you could do. When you start making good money from your hobby then you can start thinking about whether you would like to do it for a living.

Keeping On Grinding

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