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Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.

The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
edited February 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Readless thoughts on this spot. 

ayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceoddboySmall blind 15.0015.001765.00meerkat14Big blind 30.0045.002260.00 Your hole cardsQQ   chelseacliRaise 90.00135.001902.50The_Don90Raise 300.00435.001860.00xAll-in 2000.002435.000.00redcaz20Fold    oddboyFold    meerkat14Fold    chelseacliFold    The_Don90?????
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Comments

  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited February 2013
    Without reads I'd snap in a BH, not cos I want the bounty, just because people play like nutters and this 100% does not have to be AA/KK.
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  • thejudge10thejudge10 Member Posts: 465
    edited February 2013
    It really depends on how you value the tourny,its early on,the intial raiser folded i presume,i would call.There is the possibility he has kk,AA,but could be making the play with lesser holdings jj-99 ak ,aq aj.
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited February 2013
    pretty much was lamborinio said
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  • loolololloloololollo Member Posts: 929
    edited February 2013
    i play bh's so often, this is defo call hes got ak or a lower PP then you
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    i play bh's so often, this is defo call hes got ak or a lower PP then you
    Posted by loololollo
    can you explain your thoughts as to why
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited February 2013
    Unless we know villains range is AK/QQ/KK/AA then we should call imo
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  • NColleyNColley Member Posts: 1,178
    edited February 2013
    If readless and assuming we have an edge on the field.. fold.

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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    If readless and assuming we have an edge on the field.. fold.
    Posted by NColley
    disagree with this

    I think it's much closer to a call if we are multi tabling mtts. This spot is too good to miss in a BH imo, and early double up means we have a much better chance of more bounties/putting pressure on ppl later on. 

    If this is the only mtt we are playing and we are not loading any more then ye, fold. 



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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited February 2013
    if you feel u have an edge then you shouldn't take flips this early

    should be a worse hand more often then prems, **** it - snap
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  • loolololloloololollo Member Posts: 929
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh. : can you explain your thoughts as to why
    Posted by The_Don90
    imagine you had pocket a's or k's would you shove here?
    no way your going to re raise it to about 750 espically in a bh you really want the other person to go all in

    ive been in to many of these situations and basically everytime they got either a lower PP or ak
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited February 2013
    I would be cold 4b shoving AA/KK in a BH tbh......it looks weaker than a cold 4b of 750 imo, plus with your chips in the middle and your head on the line ppl just can't resist pressing call
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  • loolololloloololollo Member Posts: 929
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    I would be cold 4b shoving AA/KK in a BH tbh......it looks weaker than a cold 4b of 750 imo
    Posted by waller02
    just saying from experience thats how the majority play
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  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited February 2013
    you just seemed to be ruling out AA/KK. Readless, I would expect the oppo to turn up with aces or kings sometimes but imo they will have worse more often which is why I would call
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  • THEROCK573THEROCK573 Member Posts: 2,550
    edited February 2013

    i would be jamming here with AA or KK if it was a £5.50 or £11.00 game, they just wont be 3 betting without a premium hand at this level and will never fold to a 4 bet jam!!!

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  • bearlytherbearlyther Member Posts: 1,757
    edited February 2013
    snap call
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    Unless we know villains range is AK/QQ/KK/AA then we should call imo
    Posted by percival09
    I typed this out yesterday and then I got that annoying pop-up. So second attempt well away from pop up windows.

    I'm not saying your wrong, i posted this hand because i genuinely don't know what the right play is here. 

    My thoughts are the time leanded towards a fold. The a voice came into my head saying "but we hazzz queeeens" 

    The result of the hand doesn't matter. I just want claification on how i play it. 

    Even if we can increase the range to what you've said, adding say TT/JJ/AQ does that make it a call? - The hands u mentions + this was the range i was assigning at the time. 
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  • NColleyNColley Member Posts: 1,178
    edited February 2013
    Ok, seems like lots of people want to bust ~50% of the time in level 2 in a tourney we have an edge in..

    If you have this situation 100 times, would you prefer to have 50 times with a double up, or 100 times with 1860?
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited February 2013
    Here ya go Donald assuming you widen the range as per your post above

        equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied   
    Hand 0:     55.038%      53.78%     01.26%          270740232       6329616.00   { QQ }
    Hand 1:     44.962%      43.70%     01.26%          220017912       6329616.00   { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

    And to be honest, the way the average player in these plays, I'd expect to see smaller pairs than TT sometimes.
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    Here ya go Donald assuming you widen the range as per your post above     equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    Hand 0:     55.038%      53.78%     01.26%          270740232       6329616.00   { QQ } Hand 1:     44.962%      43.70%     01.26%          220017912       6329616.00   { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ } And to be honest, the way the average player in these plays, I'd expect to see smaller pairs than TT sometimes.
    Posted by Lambert180
    So i'm winning the had 55% of the time? 
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  • MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    edited February 2013
    In Response to Re: Queens facing cold 4b shove level 2 bh.:
    Ok, seems like lots of people want to bust ~50% of the time in level 2 in a tourney we have an edge in.. If you have this situation 100 times, would you prefer to have 50 times with a double up, or 100 times with 1860?
    Posted by NColley
    Firstly, I think you are overestimating the hand strength of the opponent to assume we lose 50% of the time. However, assuming we win 50% of the time it would be interesting to know peoples thoughts on the answer to the question in bold as this will vary from player to player based on playing style/ability and numerous other factors.

    So, to properly analyse the decision I guess we have to look at

    How often do we believe we are winning the hand?
    What is our expected outcome based on the number of times we win? Eg, for some players getting an early double up gives them a much better chance of a deep run in a tournament for others it might not matter as much.
    We also need to consider our edge on the field

    So in summary....like all good poker answers....it depends!

    Hope that helps

    Matt
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