Well this is interesting. I've read every post to the point I started this one, so I've probably missed a couple now. I'll just preface this by saying no, I have never run an online room. But with nearly a decade of online experience and involvement in most sites/networks you have heard of and some you haven't, I don't think this negates any possible validity in knowing the right and wrong things for online poker sites to do. In my opinion a site should always focus its attention on recreational players and depositing players (sometimes but not always the same thing). I play the highest MTTs on this site, yet myself and Kaymac pushed for more and continued low and micro buy in MTTs on this forum. I played (up until a couple of months ago) the biggest DYMs on this site, yet I was one of the first to call for the return of the 30p DYMs on this forum. Why care about games I don't play? Because the poker industry has always been bottom up, not top down. Especially in the present global economy (i.e. everyone's skint) a online room should be focusing on the recreational players, not on the high volume regs. The word loyalty is being thrown around a bit poorly imo. Open question to all, who is more loyal? Me, a player who is easily in the top 40 rake generators over the past couple of years and plays roughly 65% of their volume on SkyPoker; or Joe Bloggs, a recreational player who plays maybe a dozen £5.50 BHers or deep stacks a week, the odd main event and a couple of nights a month on the DYMs when they're in the mood, all of which on SkyPoker, the only site they play on? A few people have been putting a case forward that pure rake generation is a measure of loyalty and therefore it would be me. I would humbly put forward the argument that Joe is more loyal than me, loves playing on SkyPoker and should be given more consideration for promotions than I would be, while never saying that any player should get no consideration. DYMs and SnGs. I'm in the wait and see camp for this one. The higher volume games are either reg infested or just are not running at the moment. It's been flagged up a few times and I am fully confident one of the future promotions will be on this. IMO it'll have to be a good one, the MTT and cash player pools are growing, but with DYM rake usually double (sometimes more) the old industry standard of that big place (DYM rake was 5% there when they still had them) the player pool is bound to suffer. I'm not complaining about the rake, let's just make that clear. I fully understand it's a case of get something here and lose something there, same as any site. However as a result the playerpool for DYMs, particularly £33 and higher, suffer. And yes this change will hurt that playerpool more. Personally I want a promotion similar to, or lets face it, a straight rip off of the BOP promo the big place does. I can't think of a better one to run for SnGs/DYMs, I hope and trust someone in charge does. So I'm not going with a kneejerk reaction to this. These changes are not for the best part of a month, I would want something to compensate DYM players for this change (all DYMs players, not just the higher stake ones) in place or ready to roll when the change happens, to boost the playerpool if nothing else. IMO it desperately needs it for recs and regs alike. Lastly, this is only opinion. I've stated many times before that I do not and never have considered C4P to be a wage. I know people I like and respect a lot will disagree wholeheartedly with me on this one. I respect their view, but I hold another one. For me C4P was always a bonus and what you win on the tables, playing the game, is your wage. If you play this game for a living, winning the games and the money should always take a higher priority than having a rake generation target to regularly hit IMO. In fact it should take the highest priority, while points numbers should be wither far below it or a side effect of this. Summary. I think the change is positive and beneficial for much more of the membership than it hinders. It's also a positive change for the more important members of the player pool when we look at what's good for the poker economy. There are some areas taking a hit, particularly DYMs, which need urgent attention. Sky have already stated they recognise this and I fully trust they will be addressed very soon. If I get this part wrong, please feel free to say you told me so. I have a diary here and it's really not hard to find, and I welcome all comment. Posted by TommyD
C4P has always been weighted strongly towards SNG players (I often play DYM's / HU Hypers as an easy way of hitting points targets). It surely can't be a major surprise to any serious SNG player that Sky would eventually address this? I'm sure you can find a site with more liquidity. Good luck finding somewhere with games that are more profitable. Posted by jakally
This is the key point of the whole thread.
Yes I could go elsewhere and get my 50% rakeback, but to do that I will be playing against multi-tabling HUD using regs, thus my overall profit would be far less. Trust me I have tried.
wow for once i agree with waller, the old sky was so much better than whats here today
seems like sky are taking one step forward and 5 steps back
the rake back could have been done so much better than it has done and i think sky will realise this really soon,really think sky should sit down and take a really hard look at the site before it just ends up fading out.
we all have are own veiws depending on what games , stakes volume we play but for me being a dym mid to high stakes reg it will kill me in lost rake, and trust me on dyms rake matters. 2p is the same has 20% for dym mtt so no incentive to push on for higher rake. many a month ive put in long hrs last 2 days to get to that next rake % level. im a big fan of sky and have played here has a reg for 15 months and built up a nice roll but unfortunately i wont be able to grind these any more. thats not to say i will quit the site, like a few have said i will play the odd evening mtt has i like 6max but regarding my dym grind i will have to look else where
If you want to make the place better and ensure long term future of the game
1) limit multi tabling to 6 tables at very most 2) scrap all forms of rakeback 3) ban all forms of 3rd party software 4) bring back play through tv 5) stop abusing limpers on 861 6) invest in atttracting limpers,losers,fish,gamblers, whatever you want to call them.
C4P has always been weighted strongly towards SNG players (I often play DYM's / HU Hypers as an easy way of hitting points targets). It surely can't be a major surprise to any serious SNG player that Sky would eventually address this? I'm sure you can find a site with more liquidity. Good luck finding somewhere with games that are more profitable. Posted by jakally
Well this is interesting. I've read every post to the point I started this one, so I've probably missed a couple now. I'll just preface this by saying no, I have never run an online room. But with nearly a decade of online experience and involvement in most sites/networks you have heard of and some you haven't, I don't think this negates any possible validity in knowing the right and wrong things for online poker sites to do. In my opinion a site should always focus its attention on recreational players and depositing players (sometimes but not always the same thing). I play the highest MTTs on this site, yet myself and Kaymac pushed for more and continued low and micro buy in MTTs on this forum. I played (up until a couple of months ago) the biggest DYMs on this site, yet I was one of the first to call for the return of the 30p DYMs on this forum. Why care about games I don't play? Because the poker industry has always been bottom up, not top down. Especially in the present global economy (i.e. everyone's skint) a online room should be focusing on the recreational players, not on the high volume regs. The word loyalty is being thrown around a bit poorly imo. Open question to all, who is more loyal? Me, a player who is easily in the top 40 rake generators over the past couple of years and plays roughly 65% of their volume on SkyPoker; or Joe Bloggs, a recreational player who plays maybe a dozen £5.50 BHers or deep stacks a week, the odd main event and a couple of nights a month on the DYMs when they're in the mood, all of which on SkyPoker, the only site they play on? A few people have been putting a case forward that pure rake generation is a measure of loyalty and therefore it would be me. I would humbly put forward the argument that Joe is more loyal than me, loves playing on SkyPoker and should be given more consideration for promotions than I would be, while never saying that any player should get no consideration. DYMs and SnGs. I'm in the wait and see camp for this one. The higher volume games are either reg infested or just are not running at the moment. It's been flagged up a few times and I am fully confident one of the future promotions will be on this. IMO it'll have to be a good one, the MTT and cash player pools are growing, but with DYM rake usually double (sometimes more) the old industry standard of that big place (DYM rake was 5% there when they still had them) the player pool is bound to suffer. I'm not complaining about the rake, let's just make that clear. I fully understand it's a case of get something here and lose something there, same as any site. However as a result the playerpool for DYMs, particularly £33 and higher, suffer. And yes this change will hurt that playerpool more. Personally I want a promotion similar to, or lets face it, a straight rip off of the BOP promo the big place does. I can't think of a better one to run for SnGs/DYMs, I hope and trust someone in charge does. So I'm not going with a kneejerk reaction to this. These changes are not for the best part of a month, I would want something to compensate DYM players for this change (all DYMs players, not just the higher stake ones) in place or ready to roll when the change happens, to boost the playerpool if nothing else. IMO it desperately needs it for recs and regs alike. Lastly, this is only opinion. I've stated many times before that I do not and never have considered C4P to be a wage. I know people I like and respect a lot will disagree wholeheartedly with me on this one. I respect their view, but I hold another one. For me C4P was always a bonus and what you win on the tables, playing the game, is your wage. If you play this game for a living, winning the games and the money should always take a higher priority than having a rake generation target to regularly hit IMO. In fact it should take the highest priority, while points numbers should be wither far below it or a side effect of this. Summary. I think the change is positive and beneficial for much more of the membership than it hinders. It's also a positive change for the more important members of the player pool when we look at what's good for the poker economy. There are some areas taking a hit, particularly DYMs, which need urgent attention. Sky have already stated they recognise this and I fully trust they will be addressed very soon. If I get this part wrong, please feel free to say you told me so. I have a diary here and it's really not hard to find, and I welcome all comment. Posted by TommyD
One of the best thought out posts I have ever seen on this forum
If you want to make the place better and ensure long term future of the game 1) limit multi tabling to 6 tables at very most 2) scrap all forms of rakeback 3) ban all forms of 3rd party software 4) bring back play through tv 5) stop abusing limpers on 861 6) invest in atttracting limpers,losers,fish,gamblers, whatever you want to call them. Posted by ajs4385
1) Sites need regs, regs multi tabling get games going. It's all about the correct blend of regs v recs. Also the amount of people multi tabling more than 6 a very low, especially at the micro to low limits. A cap on this would have negligible effects.
2) Rakeback/rewards programmes are good for the liquity of a playerpool, from the recreational player happy to see an extra tenner, or in their minds a once a month ten quid MTT they normally never get to play to the high stakes grinder getting their quota. I'm not sure how eliminating this actually helps liquidity, maybe a site could use that money on more promotions, giveaways and marketing to get more players in, but I'm not sure it would prove to be better. Anyway, the genie is out of the bottle and rakeback/rewards/bonuses in one form or another is industry standard. Going against that would hurt more than help.
3) As far as I am aware it is here. I'm pretty sure this is a stalking horse question to derail/start another avenue of discussion. People rig together stuff all of the time, some people are frighteningly good with code and a PC. Many others, not so much, but they have a go anyway and some people end up buying the stuff to be disappointed. It's a continuing problem all sites must combat.
4) Really bad cost effectiveness for a room and would have little to zero positive effect on liquidity or the site anyway.
5) Abuse is a strong word and inappropriate here in my view. 861 is a marketing and learning tool. If presenters go against their own integrity to give bad advice on purpose it would irrevocably damage the reputation of the site they represented. So therefore would be bad.
6) Not sure where to begin on this one. I think you're looking at what is good all wrong. IMO what is good is giving all players, recreational and regs, a poker experience of enjoyment and security. Now recreational players are going to hold much more stock in this than regs, so they should be a primary focus. The focus is not and should not be making the games easier for the regs, or frankly feeding recreational players one after the other to regs. If regs are good enough, they'll make money anyway, they don't need spoon feeding.
I can't help but feel you are too focussed on the levels you and I play rather than all the levels. Recreational players, seen a lot more at the lower levels of cash and playing STTs, should get a fun, enjoyable, friendly and secure experience on a site, that is what is important to them. And with these changes that is what, IMO, Skypoker is doing. Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better? IMO and when viewed as a whole rather than in compartments, yes.
Basically all those boring nit rakeback grinders who made a living from the game from c4ps, waiting for aces and kings and coolering people are going to have to find another avenue of income.
If you want to make the place better and ensure long term future of the game 1) limit multi tabling to 6 tables at very most 2) scrap all forms of rakeback 3) ban all forms of 3rd party software 4) bring back play through tv 5) stop abusing limpers on 861 6) invest in atttracting limpers,losers,fish,gamblers, whatever you want to call them. Posted by ajs4385
In Response to Re: Sky Poker Rewards : Why not come and sit then? I'll bet everything I have I've made more buy ins than you this year. Always a keyboard warrior out there! Does folding all the time mean you become a winning player? Wasn't like that when i played. Take your money....did I? Posted by Donttelmum
I play a higher level than you. You may well have, considering I put in almost zero volume and actually enjoy my life... I don't think I've played more than a handful of hands with you... All of which you folded pre flop.
I only replied to your message because it was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I have no idea how so many regs can be so utterly delusional and brain dead. Considering you all managed to learn the hand rankings and how to beat this game - albeit by folding lots waiting for a set and check raising...
If you'd rather keep the extra £50 a week bonus and watch the games get even worse than they are now then fair enough. But you won't beat them much longer. You already have to grind 10/20nl for 15 hours a day to squeeze what little else you can from the game... Time to question what is more important... £50 a week bonus ... or potentially far more because of the positive effect on the games.
TommyD summed it up pretty much perfectly in his paragraph about the C4P being a bonus, not a wage.
The players on here, and other sites, that look at their C4P going up rather than their bankroll are what is wrong with poker. For those that don't see it that way and are playing this game for a living, I mean, come on. What Sky is introducing is going to make the games, probably for all levels, better. If you are a profitable player then you should all be rubbing your hands together at this news.
In Response to Re: Sky Poker Rewards : I play a higher level than you. You may well have, considering I put in almost zero volume and actually enjoy my life... I don't think I've played more than a handful of hands with you... All of which you folded pre flop. I only replied to your message because it was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I have no idea how so many regs can be so utterly delusional and brain dead. Considering you all managed to learn the hand rankings and how to beat this game - albeit by folding lots waiting for a set and check raising... If you'd rather keep the extra £50 a week bonus and watch the games get even worse than they are now then fair enough. But you won't beat them much longer. You already have to grind 10/20nl for 15 hours a day to squeeze what little else you can from the game... Time to question what is more important... £50 a week bonus ... or potentially far more because of the positive effect on the games. Posted by pryce6
Yup, warrior. I enjoy my life which involves playing poker. Does everyone have to play the same style? If you've only played a handful of hands against me how do you know how I play? Which regs are delusional and brain dead? I don't think the games are bad, I happen to think they are great. What makes you say the games are bad?
I can understand why high volume regs aren't going to be happy to lose a little of their monthly bonus under the new scheme, who wouldn't be. But you guys need to realise that you're at the top of a pyramid that is supported by low volume/low stakes recreational players and newbies at the bottom.
When that bottom tier starts to decline it affects the whole pyramid, everybody will suffer including those at the top. In my opinion shifting the balance a little in favour of the grass-roots players leisure players will be to the benefit of the whole poker eco-system, including those at the top. You can't quantify it, but if these changes encourage a decent boost in business at the low end, say people who earn 100-1,000 points per month, that means more money will trickle up to those at the top.
Some people you need to look at the bigger picture. Bending over backwards to keep high volume grinders happy at the expense of the other 99% of the player pool is little more than fools gold.
TommyD wins this thread. So many poker players are shortsighted in their outlook for the games. I would far rather the money be redistributed from winning/break even regs who make their money from RB to exciting promotions for new players, recreational players or reactivating old accounts. And like many people in this thread, this looks like something where my average rake back payment will decrease slightly but I'm okay with that.
It's all swings and roundabouts really. IF there were a situation where a number of regs decided to leave the site, it would mean that the games then turned into better games which would then attract either new regs from other sites or the old regs would return.
This is an issue facing all poker sites and I'm glad that sky are being proactive in dealing with it. Keeping things fresh and new is good and I look forward to hearing the new promotions coming in the future.
Comments
1) limit multi tabling to 6 tables at very most
2) scrap all forms of rakeback
3) ban all forms of 3rd party software
4) bring back play through tv
5) stop abusing limpers on 861
6) invest in atttracting limpers,losers,fish,gamblers, whatever you want to call them.
2) Rakeback/rewards programmes are good for the liquity of a playerpool, from the recreational player happy to see an extra tenner, or in their minds a once a month ten quid MTT they normally never get to play to the high stakes grinder getting their quota. I'm not sure how eliminating this actually helps liquidity, maybe a site could use that money on more promotions, giveaways and marketing to get more players in, but I'm not sure it would prove to be better. Anyway, the genie is out of the bottle and rakeback/rewards/bonuses in one form or another is industry standard. Going against that would hurt more than help.
3) As far as I am aware it is here. I'm pretty sure this is a stalking horse question to derail/start another avenue of discussion. People rig together stuff all of the time, some people are frighteningly good with code and a PC. Many others, not so much, but they have a go anyway and some people end up buying the stuff to be disappointed. It's a continuing problem all sites must combat.
4) Really bad cost effectiveness for a room and would have little to zero positive effect on liquidity or the site anyway.
5) Abuse is a strong word and inappropriate here in my view. 861 is a marketing and learning tool. If presenters go against their own integrity to give bad advice on purpose it would irrevocably damage the reputation of the site they represented. So therefore would be bad.
6) Not sure where to begin on this one. I think you're looking at what is good all wrong. IMO what is good is giving all players, recreational and regs, a poker experience of enjoyment and security. Now recreational players are going to hold much more stock in this than regs, so they should be a primary focus. The focus is not and should not be making the games easier for the regs, or frankly feeding recreational players one after the other to regs. If regs are good enough, they'll make money anyway, they don't need spoon feeding.
I can't help but feel you are too focussed on the levels you and I play rather than all the levels. Recreational players, seen a lot more at the lower levels of cash and playing STTs, should get a fun, enjoyable, friendly and secure experience on a site, that is what is important to them. And with these changes that is what, IMO, Skypoker is doing. Is it perfect? Nope. Is it better? IMO and when viewed as a whole rather than in compartments, yes.
When that bottom tier starts to decline it affects the whole pyramid, everybody will suffer including those at the top. In my opinion shifting the balance a little in favour of the grass-roots players leisure players will be to the benefit of the whole poker eco-system, including those at the top. You can't quantify it, but if these changes encourage a decent boost in business at the low end, say people who earn 100-1,000 points per month, that means more money will trickle up to those at the top.
Some people you need to look at the bigger picture. Bending over backwards to keep high volume grinders happy at the expense of the other 99% of the player pool is little more than fools gold.
People who earn 500-999 who usually get 0.8p per point and now get 1p per point.
Cba writing that down for each level, but the players who get slightly more pence per point than they normally would.
And by the sounds of this thread, a few people are gonna benefit from softer games when all these regs move to other sites