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SHOVE POINT?
THESWISS
Member Posts: 238
One of the most important concepts in poker.
It has ICM connections but it is a close one.
You have a PLAYABLE hand in a 6 handed MTT.
Eg
UTG AQ or 88
Button A8 or KQ
There are no bubble issues.
You have less than 15 BB's
eg 14 BB's
Do you shove all in OR 2.5/3x raise?
The guys on Cardrunners say shove.
On the poker million final table this year they also would shove.
In other words they looked at the hand strength and their position and it was shove or fold.
It's partly due to the fact that the continuation bet would mean half your stack is gone if you miss the flop.
You also open yourself up to a possible reraise and you may have to fold.
Eg You have 66, you raise 2.5/3x & they shove with AK you have to fold. Not ideal, the shove would remove this problem.
Ed Giddins prefers less than 10bbs before shoving, i think
Tikay also prefers less than 10bbs, i think.
James prefers less than 15bbs.
It's a close one
What would you do?
There is no right or wrong but its a close debate.
PS No limpers
Comments
Also they may Donk bet. Or they just check raise you with the winning hand.
This is in a MTT, with no bubble issues.
You assume they dont know about this 1:3 flop thing and apply that to your actions or that they miss it but they are all around it?
With 14BB we still have a bit of play left in our stack and i would base my decision on these as yet unknown factors. If i was below 10BB this would be an instant shove for me but at 14BB i am prepared to wait for the right spot
my thoughts exactly, great post
Good post Swiss but I can see its being over analysed..
Can I jump in with a suggestion?
Assume you have just been moved to a new table one hand ago and that by the time you are in the blinds again they probably will go up. Answering the OP - do you make a standard raise and risk post flop play with one or more players or do you attempt to take the blinds with the risk of maybe one call?
I shove - happy to take the blinds OR to get one call with a double up chance.
Personally i 3x open see a flop
3 x open fold to a shove if shoved upon
Its how you play the game though thats just mine
If the blinds have a similar (or smaller) stack to me, I'm shoving.
If they have much bigger stacks than me, I am raising 3x.
The reason for this is that I think a big stack is more likely to just call a 3x bet which gives me the post-flop options that have been mentioned previously. If the blinds have a relatively small stack they are much more likely to 3-bet aipf and I want to take this play away from them.
One of the main reasons for the shove is that if you 3x and miss the flop and then C bet, half your stack has gone. If they then reraise the C bet you then have to fold or even worse you possibly have odds to call with two overs.
It takes away them being able to reraise preflop and you then may have to fold, you may even be folding the best hand.
If they are short stacked or not does really matter, the pros will make the shove regardless.
But for purposes of the question assume they have more chips than you.
I have always previously preferred waiting for less than 10 BB's before shoving with playable hands in playable positions.
I'm now not sure, less than 15 may now be best.
Tikay and James your thoughts?
I'm raising 3*bb against bigger stacks and then shoving on any flop that is checked to me.
After careful consideration i have decided to limp blind & then call a shove.