Too early for dinner ... I'm still on afternoon tea :-)
There is nothing more magic about the number 15 than there is the number 10 ... or 7!
And, in my original post, I did say it's better to three-bet jam against an opening raiser with a 15bb stack, rather than open-shove. I actually prefer to wait for a situation like this, rather than be the guy opening the pot with a hand like A8 or QJ.
To answer your question about why it's a sin to 4x and fold: I simply can't stand committing a decent percentage of my stack to a pot - and then folding. If I have a marginal hand, I would rather pass - and wait for a better opportunity (preferably an opportunity to three-bet shove) - or, to quote a certain Tony Kendall, "put the pressure on my opponent and get my chips in first!"
Trust me, I'm aware that many young players go broke. I'm also aware, having watched hundreds of hands at dozens of EPT final tables, that pre-flop aggro WORKS. The nits who nurse 7-10bbs sometimes manage to creep up the money ladder and cash 5th or 4th, but they never win...
Good point from NOGIMMICKS about the lack of antes on Sky Poker. Which raises the question: should we have antes in the 19:30 Deepstack? I say YES! :-)
Too early for dinner ... I'm still on afternoon tea :-) There is nothing more magic about the number 15 than there is the number 10 ... or 7! And, in my original post, I did say it's better to three-bet jam against an opening raiser with a 15bb stack, rather than open-shove. I actually prefer to wait for a situation like this, rather than be the guy opening the pot with a hand like A8 or QJ. To answer your question about why it's a sin to 4x and fold: I simply can't stand committing a decent percentage of my stack to a pot - and then folding. If I have a marginal hand, I would rather pass - and wait for a better opportunity (preferably an opportunity to three-bet shove) - or, to quote a certain Tony Kendall, "put the pressure on my opponent and get my chips in first!" Trust me, I'm aware that many young players go broke. I'm also aware, having watched hundreds of hands at dozens of EPT final tables, that pre-flop aggro WORKS . The nits who nurse 7-10bbs sometimes manage to creep up the money ladder and cash 5th or 4th, but they never win... Good point from NOGIMMICKS about the lack of antes on Sky Poker. Which raises the question: should we have antes in the 19:30 Deepstack? I say YES! :-) Posted by J-Hartigan
I agree with that 100%. But that was not the question, nor the point of it.....
Too early for dinner ... I'm still on afternoon tea :-) There is nothing more magic about the number 15 than there is the number 10 ... or 7! And, in my original post, I did say it's better to three-bet jam against an opening raiser with a 15bb stack, rather than open-shove. I actually prefer to wait for a situation like this, rather than be the guy opening the pot with a hand like A8 or QJ. To answer your question about why it's a sin to 4x and fold: I simply can't stand committing a decent percentage of my stack to a pot - and then folding. If I have a marginal hand, I would rather pass - and wait for a better opportunity (preferably an opportunity to three-bet shove) - or, to quote a certain Tony Kendall, "put the pressure on my opponent and get my chips in first!" Trust me, I'm aware that many young players go broke. I'm also aware, having watched hundreds of hands at dozens of EPT final tables, that pre-flop aggro WORKS . The nits who nurse 7-10bbs sometimes manage to creep up the money ladder and cash 5th or 4th, but they never win... Good point from NOGIMMICKS about the lack of antes on Sky Poker. Which raises the question: should we have antes in the 19:30 Deepstack? I say YES! :-) Posted by J-Hartigan
I can't stand brussel sprouts, but that does not make therm bad. I'm not mad keen on Orford, either, but I would not say he's bad. His jumpers, yes, him, no.
It's a personal preference, not a maxim we should indoctrinate into those who unthinkingly follow the herd, without knowing "why".
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : I can't stand brussel sprouts, but that does not make therm bad. It's a personal preference, not a maxim we should indoctrinate into those who unthinkingly follow the herd, without knowing "why". Posted by Tikay10
Calm down, old fella - think of your heart!!!
Ironically, we agree on an important principle: there are no "rules" or "maxims."
I did actually say that a few posts back...just before I accused you of being utterly ludicrous...in response to you calling me ridiculous...
Shouldn't you go back to scrapping with Orford now? :-)
Too early for dinner ... I'm still on afternoon tea :-) There is nothing more magic about the number 15 than there is the number 10 ... or 7! And, in my original post, I did say it's better to three-bet jam against an opening raiser with a 15bb stack, rather than open-shove. I actually prefer to wait for a situation like this, rather than be the guy opening the pot with a hand like A8 or QJ. To answer your question about why it's a sin to 4x and fold: I simply can't stand committing a decent percentage of my stack to a pot - and then folding. If I have a marginal hand, I would rather pass - and wait for a better opportunity (preferably an opportunity to three-bet shove) - or, to quote a certain Tony Kendall, "put the pressure on my opponent and get my chips in first!" Trust me, I'm aware that many young players go broke. I'm also aware, having watched hundreds of hands at dozens of EPT final tables, that pre-flop aggro WORKS . The nits who nurse 7-10bbs sometimes manage to creep up the money ladder and cash 5th or 4th, but they never win... Good point from NOGIMMICKS about the lack of antes on Sky Poker. Which raises the question: should we have antes in the 19:30 Deepstack? I say YES! :-) Posted by J-Hartigan
Of COURSE pre-flop aggro works - it's almost the WHOLE point of NLH. That's very different from "well, I've put 25% of my stack in, so that's it, I gotta die now, because I HAVE to stick in the other 75% even though I KNOW I'm behind". What it really means is "I' am not good enough to Pass, formulate a Plan B, adjust, & soldier on".
And remind me. What exacty is wrong with laddering into 4th or 5th place?......... A poker players FIRST priority is to fund his poker habit. And he does that by garnering repeated cashes, not "I WON IT" headlines. Well, the ones who wanna stay solvent do.......
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Calm down, old fella - think of your heart!!! Ironically, we agree on an important principle: there are no "rules" or "maxims." I did actually say that a few posts back...just before I accused you of being utterly ludicrous...in response to you calling me ridiculous... Shouldn't you go back to scrapping with Orford now? :-) Posted by J-Hartigan
Do keep up Horatio.
I said.....
Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes.
That was not in response to you, or anything you said.
Now, I have seen your mode of dress, in Vegas, so I do think you are ridiculous, but I'd never say that, Heaven forbid.
14/15bb's in an mtt is clearly (as proved by the discussion here) a slightly awkward stack. I'm with Tikay in that open shoving this size feels wrong, certainly on SKY where there are no antes, but equally I am never raise/folding so am with James there. For me its passing hands like 55/a9 etc or looking to 3 bet shove (but only where you believe there is genuine fold equity) Having said that AQ (utg) was mentioned in the original post and that is easily a strong enough hand to raise on a 6 handed table to INDUCE a shove. I'm happily calling 100% of players in that spot.
Pugil sticks round two?? Sorry to Tikay and James, i knew it was a good topic but i did not expect World War III. Hopefully my next thread will not be as heated. It's called "Does God exist?" Posted by THESWISS
Lol, I'd whop him at that, too........
It may seem that way, but I'm not in the least cross, or upset, (though I am very busy) I'm just trying to explain something which troubles me greatly - so many inexperienced players believe all this 15 x BB nonsense, then wonder why they need staking, never make money, & it troubles me deeply.
And if the debate has shown just one player that there is another way, that they could think for themselves, & forget all the "hand in the air, fist pump, I call" peer pressure they get from reading the nosebleed level poker forums, they'd do a lot better. Or less worse.
14/15bb's in an mtt is clearly (as proved by the discussion here) a slightly awkward stack. I'm with Tikay in that open shoving this size feels wrong, certainly on SKY where there are no antes, but equally I am never raise/folding so am with James there. For me its passing hands like 55/a9 etc or looking to 3 bet shove (but only where you believe there is genuine fold equity) Having said that AQ (utg) was mentioned in the original post and that is easily a strong enough hand to raise on a 6 handed table to INDUCE a shove. I'm happily calling 100% of players in that spot. Posted by NOGIMMICKS
But why?
What, effectively, is the difference between 11 or 12 x BB & 15 x BB?
I don't like to Raise-Fold - in fact, that's a bit of a dumb thing to say - nobody does, that's self-evident. But we have to do things we don't like sometimes. And if the "answer" I get back from a 4 x BB Bet leaving me 11 x BB is that I am in bad shape, I'm folding quicker than Hartigan disappears when her indoors says "dinner's ready James".
Sometimes the best thing to do is the thing you least want to do. But if our Tourney life depends upon it, we gotta learn to go with it. With 11 x BB we ARE still in, & that's key. We gotta be in it to win it.
What I would NEVER do though is Raise 4 x BB then go & have my dinner. That's -Ev poker, but +Ev domestic harmony if you are under the thumb.
With 14/15bb's I would never raise/fold because once people know you do that, you really are a soft target to be re-popped. If you're happily raising all these marginal hands, but only prepared to go further with the absoulute zenith of your pre-flop raising range then that's fairly exploitable. Equally I'm calling when I'm raised all in with my AQ-10,10 etc because more often than not I will be getting at the very least a fair price, and many occasions will be ahead against people who believed they had fold equity and shoved with marginal holdings. Each to their own though.
....and equally this discussion is taking place because 14/15bb's is seen as a stack size where it gets tricky. You, Tikay would never raise/fold with 8bb's and equally I'm sure James would be prepared to raise/fold with 22bb's, so it's just a case of an individual's threshold.
14BB is plenty to play with, so a 3x raise for me. Next action would depend on many factors; opponents reaction, his observed style so far, table dynamics, etc. Posted by GaryQQQ
......is the WINNER.
You Sir, get the prize. I'm assuming you are over 40, yes?
....and equally this discussion is taking place because 14/15bb's is seen as a stack size where it gets tricky. You, Tikay would never raise/fold with 8bb's and equally I'm sure James would be prepared to raise/fold with 22bb's, so it's just a case of an individual's threshold. Posted by NOGIMMICKS
Yes. I can, do, & will continue to, Raise/Fold (if I have to) with 15 x BB. Because I have the ability to play a short stack well, in fact, there's nothing I enjoy more.
Sadly, current society being what it is, there is a tendencey in life & in poker to say "I can't be bothered to dig myself out of this spot" when the wind is in people's faces.
It's the best part of poker - struggling against the Blinds with a short stack, & succeeding. Jamming 15 x Bigs in pre & saying "oh well, what will be will be" is not very satisfying, to my mind. I wonder how these shove-monkeys* would cope with a well-structured Pot Limit Tourney?
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Do keep up Horatio. I said..... Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes. That was not in response to you, or anything you said. Now, I have seen your mode of dress, in Vegas, so I do think you are ridiculous, but I'd never say that, Heaven forbid. Posted by Tikay10
Sigh. The whole "you said, I said" thing was sarcastic. Never mind... :-)
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Yes. I can, do, & will continue to, Raise/Fold (if I have to) with 15 x BB. Because I have the ability to play a short stack well, in fact, there's nothing I enjoy more. Sadly, current society being what it is, there is a tendencey in life & in poker to say "I can't be bothered to dig myself out of this spot" when the wind is in people's faces. It's the best part of poker - struggling against the Blinds with a short stack, & succeeding. Jamming 15 x Bigs in pre & saying "oh well, what will be will be" is not very satisfying, to my mind. I wonder how these shove-monkeys* would cope with a well-structured Pot Limit Tourney? * I jest, of course. Posted by Tikay10
LOL - surely this is the EASIEST form of poker? Shove or fold?
I would also argue it's one of the most boring. I guess that's why these "Kidz" (curse them all!) prefer to jam - hoping to chip up (adding 10% to their stack if they win the blinds); double up to a very playable 30bbs; or bust out, abuse the guy who took their chips, type "lol donkaments" in the chat box and then move onto the next game...
Finally:
1) Shove-monkeys rock!
2) PLHE tournies suck!
3) Always play for the win - no-one remembers who cashed in 4th or 5th place!
4) All this has been written with heavy irony.
5) I added point 4) for the benefit of the older members of the forum who get a bit confused :-)
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : What I would NEVER do though is Raise 4 x BB then go & have my dinner. That's -Ev poker, but +Ev domestic harmony if you are under the thumb. Next case. Posted by Tikay10
Oh, come on!
Who wouldn't choose penne with prosciutto, cream and white wine over a poker game...?
Comments
It's a personal preference, not a maxim we should indoctrinate into those who unthinkingly follow the herd, without knowing "why".
And remind me. What exacty is wrong with laddering into 4th or 5th place?......... A poker players FIRST priority is to fund his poker habit. And he does that by garnering repeated cashes, not "I WON IT" headlines. Well, the ones who wanna stay solvent do.......
I said.....
Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes.
That was not in response to you, or anything you said.
Now, I have seen your mode of dress, in Vegas, so I do think you are ridiculous, but I'd never say that, Heaven forbid.
Pugil sticks round two??
Sorry to Tikay and James, i knew it was a good topic but i did not expect World War III.
Hopefully my next thread will not be as heated.
It's called "Does God exist?"
14/15bb's in an mtt is clearly (as proved by the discussion here) a slightly awkward stack. I'm with Tikay in that open shoving this size feels wrong, certainly on SKY where there are no antes, but equally I am never raise/folding so am with James there. For me its passing hands like 55/a9 etc or looking to 3 bet shove (but only where you believe there is genuine fold equity) Having said that AQ (utg) was mentioned in the original post and that is easily a strong enough hand to raise on a 6 handed table to INDUCE a shove. I'm happily calling 100% of players in that spot.
It may seem that way, but I'm not in the least cross, or upset, (though I am very busy) I'm just trying to explain something which troubles me greatly - so many inexperienced players believe all this 15 x BB nonsense, then wonder why they need staking, never make money, & it troubles me deeply.
And if the debate has shown just one player that there is another way, that they could think for themselves, & forget all the "hand in the air, fist pump, I call" peer pressure they get from reading the nosebleed level poker forums, they'd do a lot better. Or less worse.
What, effectively, is the difference between 11 or 12 x BB & 15 x BB?
I don't like to Raise-Fold - in fact, that's a bit of a dumb thing to say - nobody does, that's self-evident. But we have to do things we don't like sometimes. And if the "answer" I get back from a 4 x BB Bet leaving me 11 x BB is that I am in bad shape, I'm folding quicker than Hartigan disappears when her indoors says "dinner's ready James".
Sometimes the best thing to do is the thing you least want to do. But if our Tourney life depends upon it, we gotta learn to go with it. With 11 x BB we ARE still in, & that's key. We gotta be in it to win it.
What I would NEVER do though is Raise 4 x BB then go & have my dinner. That's -Ev poker, but +Ev domestic harmony if you are under the thumb.
Next case.
Next action would depend on many factors; opponents reaction, his observed style so far, table dynamics, etc.
With 14/15bb's I would never raise/fold because once people know you do that, you really are a soft target to be re-popped. If you're happily raising all these marginal hands, but only prepared to go further with the absoulute zenith of your pre-flop raising range then that's fairly exploitable. Equally I'm calling when I'm raised all in with my AQ-10,10 etc because more often than not I will be getting at the very least a fair price, and many occasions will be ahead against people who believed they had fold equity and shoved with marginal holdings.
Each to their own though.
You Sir, get the prize. I'm assuming you are over 40, yes?
Sadly, current society being what it is, there is a tendencey in life & in poker to say "I can't be bothered to dig myself out of this spot" when the wind is in people's faces.
It's the best part of poker - struggling against the Blinds with a short stack, & succeeding. Jamming 15 x Bigs in pre & saying "oh well, what will be will be" is not very satisfying, to my mind. I wonder how these shove-monkeys* would cope with a well-structured Pot Limit Tourney?
* I jest, of course.
OWNED.