With around 15bbs, the best strategy is to wait for an opportunity to three-bet shove against an opponent with >30bbs who's opened for 2.5/3x.
But, if you're UTG, or the action's folded to you in the cut-off or on the button, then I think you should open-shove.
You can only justify a 3x raise here, if you're prepared to stick the rest in if you get re-raised. If you fold to a three-bet, all you've achieved is gifting away 20% of your stack! And, when you're in the danger zone, you need to conserve chips.
Assuming you're prepared to go all the way, question is: why not give yourself the added fold equity by shoving, rather than being forced to call all-in?
The bb may call for an additional 2bbs with a pretty broad range. But is he really going to get involved with anything less than premium cards if he's being asked to stick a huge percentage of his stack in the middle - with no opportunity to bluff you off the hand?
With around 15bbs, the best strategy is to wait for an opportunity to three-bet shove against an opponent with />30bbs who's opened for 2.5/3x. But, if you're UTG, or the action's folded to you in the cut-off or on the button, then I think you should open-shove. You can only justify a 3x raise here, if you're prepared to stick the rest in if you get re-raised. If you fold to a three-bet, all you've achieved is gifting away 20% of your stack! And, when you're in the danger zone, you need to conserve chips. Assuming you're prepared to go all the way, question is: why not give yourself the added fold equity by shoving, rather than being forced to call all-in? The bb may call for an additional 2bbs with a pretty broad range. But is he really going to get involved with anything less than premium cards if he's being asked to stick a huge percentage of his stack in the middle - with no opportunity to bluff you off the hand? Posted by J-Hartigan
Thanks James, i thought you'd say that. Appreciate the detailed answer.
The tricky bit now is working out the hand ranges that are good enough to shove in various positions. I know them fairly well but it would be nice to master them. I need to download an ICM tool.
MY RULE IS 10 BIG BLINDS . FROM THEN ITS MAINLY SHOVE OR FOLD . NOW AND AGAIN , I MIGHT CALL A MIN RAISE IF IM IN THE BIG BLIND AND THERE ARE MULTIPLE PLAYERS IN THE POT . RECENTLY , I DECIDED TO START USING THE 15 B/B RULE AND JUST SEEM TO COME UNSTUCK EACH TIME . I HAVE NOT GOT A LONG ENOUGH SAMPLE OF SITUATIONS TO BE SURE AND NO WAY OF ANALYSING THE HANDS I DID IT WITH BUT I AM WONDERING IF THE HANDS I AM SHOVING WITH HAS CHANGED . MAYBE IT IS JUST SELECTIVE MEMORY !!!
I can do all three options if I have 15 x BB's, which, for MY game, is deep-stacked. (Assuming a well-structured Tourney).
I often shove there, but if I'm on my game, & focussed (& not answering zillions of Chat-Box questions), my preferred play is about 4 x BB.
In my case, I can get off this if it goes wrong & still have plenty of Blinds - 11 in this case. In fact, I can repeat it the next hand, & STILL get off it.
When I Final in the uber-slow & beautifully structured 7.30 Deepie (quite frequently, as it happens) , I am almost always Billy Low Stack, & rarely have more than 6 or 7 x BB's. That's plenty, if your instinct for "the right spot" is keen.
I'm out on a limb here, swimming against the tide, I know, & "The Kidz" rib me mercilessly about my Nit-Ness & foldability. But none of them have even won the £750 buy-in UK Open after returning on Day Two with ONE Big Blind, now have they? ........;)
Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes.
THANKS FOR THAT TK . I NEARLY ALWAYS FIND MYSELF SHORT STACKED WHEN IT GETS TO THE BUBBLE . MORE OFTEN THEN NOT I DO OK IN THIS SITUATION OR LESS I GET THAT " MAD " MOMENT . I HAD DECIDED TO TRY THE 15 BB RULE AND IT JUST WAS A DISASTER . SO , I HAVE GONE BACK TO THE 10 BB RULE WHERE I HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND WHERE MY PATIENTS , AWARENESS OF CHIP STACKS, POSITION AND READS SEEM TO WORK BEST .WOULD BE NICE TO GET COMFORTABLY INTO THE MONEY MORE OFTEN THOUGH.
I can do all three options if I have 15 x BB's, which, for MY game, is deep-stacked. (Assuming a well-structured Tourney). I often shove there, but if I'm on my game, & focussed (& not answering zillions of Chat-Box questions), my preferred play is about 4 x BB. In my case, I can get off this if it goes wrong & still have plenty of Blinds - 11 in this case. In fact, I can repeat it the next hand, & STILL get off it. When I Final in the uber-slow & beautifully structured 7.30 Deepie (quite frequently, as it happens) , I am almost always Billy Low Stack, & rarely have more than 6 or 7 x BB's. That's plenty, if your instinct for "the right spot" is keen. I'm out on a limb here, swimming against the tide, I know, & "The Kidz" rib me mercilessly about my Nit-Ness & foldability. But none of them have even won the £750 buy-in UK Open after returning on Day Two with ONE Big Blind, now have they? ........;) Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes. Posted by Tikay10
Thanks for the advice Tikay. I knew that you and James had opposite views on this.
I agree with you that tournament survival is key, and have previously always adopted the less than 10bbs approach.
THANKS FOR THAT TK . I NEARLY ALWAYS FIND MYSELF SHORT STACKED WHEN IT GETS TO THE BUBBLE . MORE OFTEN THEN NOT I DO OK IN THIS SITUATION OR LESS I GET THAT " MAD " MOMENT . I HAD DECIDED TO TRY THE 15 BB RULE AND IT JUST WAS A DISASTER . SO , I HAVE GONE BACK TO THE 10 BB RULE WHERE I HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE AND WHERE MY PATIENTS , AWARENESS OF CHIP STACKS, POSITION AND READS SEEM TO WORK BEST .WOULD BE NICE TO GET COMFORTABLY INTO THE MONEY MORE OFTEN THOUGH. Posted by PILLOWMAN
Ugh.
I'm afraid The Kidz got their message across well, that 15 Bigs was the pushing point, & now it's enshrined in Online Poker Lore.
Across Online Poker, I dread to think how many tens of milions of pounds/dollars have been thrown away by this one basic error.
But the kids got the word out, & nobody was brave enough to think it through & challenge it.
I can do all three options if I have 15 x BB's, which, for MY game, is deep-stacked. (Assuming a well-structured Tourney). I often shove there, but if I'm on my game, & focussed (& not answering zillions of Chat-Box questions), my preferred play is about 4 x BB. In my case, I can get off this if it goes wrong & still have plenty of Blinds - 11 in this case. In fact, I can repeat it the next hand, & STILL get off it. When I Final in the uber-slow & beautifully structured 7.30 Deepie (quite frequently, as it happens) , I am almost always Billy Low Stack, & rarely have more than 6 or 7 x BB's. That's plenty, if your instinct for "the right spot" is keen. I'm out on a limb here, swimming against the tide, I know, & "The Kidz" rib me mercilessly about my Nit-Ness & foldability. But none of them have even won the £750 buy-in UK Open after returning on Day Two with ONE Big Blind, now have they? ........;) Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes. Posted by Tikay10
I'm a man of tikays thinking... nice post...
I think the 15bb shove relies too much on brute force and luck (although, like tikay i dont rule it out and do use it in certain situations, for example if the blinds are defending every time to a normal raise)
I can do all three options if I have 15 x BB's, which, for MY game, is deep-stacked. (Assuming a well-structured Tourney). I often shove there, but if I'm on my game, & focussed (& not answering zillions of Chat-Box questions), my preferred play is about 4 x BB. In my case, I can get off this if it goes wrong & still have plenty of Blinds - 11 in this case. In fact, I can repeat it the next hand, & STILL get off it. When I Final in the uber-slow & beautifully structured 7.30 Deepie (quite frequently, as it happens) , I am almost always Billy Low Stack, & rarely have more than 6 or 7 x BB's. That's plenty, if your instinct for "the right spot" is keen. I'm out on a limb here, swimming against the tide, I know, & "The Kidz" rib me mercilessly about my Nit-Ness & foldability. But none of them have even won the £750 buy-in UK Open after returning on Day Two with ONE Big Blind, now have they? ........;) Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes. Posted by Tikay10
LOL @ Tikay the nit!
An interesting difference of opinion... While you think it's "ridiculous" to shove for 15bbs, I think it's utterly ludicrous to stick more than a QUARTER of your stack in the pot and then fold to a re-raise!
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : Ugh. I'm afraid The Kidz got their message across well, that 15 Bigs was the pushing point, & now it's enshrined in Online Poker Lore. Across Online Poker, I dread to think how many tens of milions of pounds/dollars have been thrown away by this one basic error. But the kids got the word out, & nobody was brave enough to think it through & challenge it. Posted by Tikay10
I agree that nothing should be considered a "rule", but why do you describe this strategy as a "basic error," Tikay? Surely, if you find the "right spots," taking this approach can be successful?
Plenty of these "Kidz" are doing alright adopting a very aggressive pre-flop strategy to NLHE MTTs, including the Card Players pros and the likes of Jason Mercier, Shaun Deeb, Christian Harder, Adam Junglen, Carter Phillips and Aaron Gustavson.
You will read a lot on cardrunners/two plus two etc etc about shoving points with 15bb (and even more) in mtt's. However the reference point for most of these discussions will be tournaments on Stars and Tilt in which ante's are involved. This makes a huge difference to the calculation and obviously isn't applicable to SKY Poker.
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : LOL @ Tikay the nit! An interesting difference of opinion... While you think it's "ridiculous" to shove for 15bbs, I think it's utterly ludicrous to stick more than a QUARTER of your stack in the pot and then fold to a re-raise! Posted by J-Hartigan
Luckily, we all play the game our own way.
If we have 15 x BB & get re-Raised, can you explain exactly WHY it's deemed the ultimate sin to Pass to a shove? Let's assume you have a read, or have "made a move", you are proposing that we have to say" too bad, I've Raised, the Kidz will mock me if I Pass, I read that it on a Forum somewhere, so I call"?
I'm sorry, but that kite will never fly. Not with me, anyway.
Don't rush into replying - have your dinner first.
In Response to Re: SHOVE POINT? : I agree that nothing should be considered a "rule", but why do you describe this strategy as a "basic error," Tikay? Surely, if you find the "right spots," taking this approach can be successful? Plenty of these "Kidz" are doing alright adopting a very aggressive pre-flop strategy to NLHE MTTs, including the Card Players pros and the likes of Jason Mercier, Shaun Deeb, Christian Harder, Adam Junglen, Carter Phillips and Aaron Gustavson. Posted by J-Hartigan
I described it as a basic error because I think it is a basic error!
Yes, lots of kids are doing fine by adopting pre-flop aggro.
Lots are going busto, too, - FAR more than you realise - or have to be staked to overcome variance. Why? That answers itself.
Comments
The tricky bit now is working out the hand ranges that are good enough to shove in various positions. I know them fairly well but it would be nice to master them. I need to download an ICM tool.
MY RULE IS 10 BIG BLINDS . FROM THEN ITS MAINLY SHOVE OR FOLD . NOW AND AGAIN , I MIGHT CALL A MIN RAISE IF IM IN THE BIG BLIND AND THERE ARE MULTIPLE PLAYERS IN THE POT . RECENTLY , I DECIDED TO START USING THE 15 B/B RULE AND JUST SEEM TO COME UNSTUCK EACH TIME . I HAVE NOT GOT A LONG ENOUGH SAMPLE OF SITUATIONS TO BE SURE AND NO WAY OF ANALYSING THE HANDS I DID IT WITH BUT I AM WONDERING IF THE HANDS I AM SHOVING WITH HAS CHANGED . MAYBE IT IS JUST SELECTIVE MEMORY !!!
http://www.holdemreview.com/icm-sit-and-go-odds-calculators/
This may help.
I can do all three options if I have 15 x BB's, which, for MY game, is deep-stacked. (Assuming a well-structured Tourney).
I often shove there, but if I'm on my game, & focussed (& not answering zillions of Chat-Box questions), my preferred play is about 4 x BB.
In my case, I can get off this if it goes wrong & still have plenty of Blinds - 11 in this case. In fact, I can repeat it the next hand, & STILL get off it.
When I Final in the uber-slow & beautifully structured 7.30 Deepie (quite frequently, as it happens) , I am almost always Billy Low Stack, & rarely have more than 6 or 7 x BB's. That's plenty, if your instinct for "the right spot" is keen.
I'm out on a limb here, swimming against the tide, I know, & "The Kidz" rib me mercilessly about my Nit-Ness & foldability. But none of them have even won the £750 buy-in UK Open after returning on Day Two with ONE Big Blind, now have they? ........;)
Don't push too soon is my advice. It's the current fashion to be shoving with as many as 15 x BB. I think that's just ridiculous, to be frank. Tournament Life on the Internet is given away far too lightly, because another Tourney will be starting in 5 minutes.
I agree with you that tournament survival is key, and have previously always adopted the less than 10bbs approach.
It's a tricky choice.
I'm afraid The Kidz got their message across well, that 15 Bigs was the pushing point, & now it's enshrined in Online Poker Lore.
Across Online Poker, I dread to think how many tens of milions of pounds/dollars have been thrown away by this one basic error.
But the kids got the word out, & nobody was brave enough to think it through & challenge it.
I think the 15bb shove relies too much on brute force and luck (although, like tikay i dont rule it out and do use it in certain situations, for example if the blinds are defending every time to a normal raise)
An interesting difference of opinion... While you think it's "ridiculous" to shove for 15bbs, I think it's utterly ludicrous to stick more than a QUARTER of your stack in the pot and then fold to a re-raise!
Plenty of these "Kidz" are doing alright adopting a very aggressive pre-flop strategy to NLHE MTTs, including the Card Players pros and the likes of Jason Mercier, Shaun Deeb, Christian Harder, Adam Junglen, Carter Phillips and Aaron Gustavson.
Luckily, we all play the game our own way.
If we have 15 x BB & get re-Raised, can you explain exactly WHY it's deemed the ultimate sin to Pass to a shove? Let's assume you have a read, or have "made a move", you are proposing that we have to say" too bad, I've Raised, the Kidz will mock me if I Pass, I read that it on a Forum somewhere, so I call"?
I'm sorry, but that kite will never fly. Not with me, anyway.
Don't rush into replying - have your dinner first.
Yes, lots of kids are doing fine by adopting pre-flop aggro.
Lots are going busto, too, - FAR more than you realise - or have to be staked to overcome variance. Why? That answers itself.
What is so magic about the figure of 15?