Here's a scenario, what if we know 100% (which we do not) that the shorty has disconnected and will not be coming back, do we still think that shoving would be the correct ICM play? It's an interesting spot.
Here's a scenario, what if we know 100% (which we do not) that the shorty has disconnected and will not be coming back, do we still think that shoving would be the correct ICM play? It's an interesting spot. Posted by DoubleAAA
We may not get a better hand than AK in a while but that's not to say we won't get equally good stealing oppertunities with a 9bb stack. I don't mind villain calling in the big blind especially when he's playing fit or fold post-flop. We then win an extra bb more at least 66% of the time or so.
I just think if we're only playing shove/fold poker with 13BB's we're going to have to have a far too tight a range and are stealing oppertunites will be limited. As you said we don't find a big hand often, so we might not find a shoving hand for a while? Personally (on sky with no antes) I only like to start jamming with 10bb or less.
Also if your only ever min-r with AA/KK and hands that you're raise/folding you're going to be easily exploitable in that good players will 3-bet/shove on you a lot because they know that AA/KK is far less likely than a hand which is raise/folding.
Not that shoving is not +ev but people are making very general assumptions about our ICM here. Of course it's better to come 1st in 20 MTTs than having 5 min-cashes. That being said shoving and winning here is not going to neccesarilly give us a much greater chance of winning the tournament than folding would. Obviously folding is not an option with this hand but I just think some people obviously under-estimate a min-cash and seem to think that we massively improve our EV in the tournament by playing aggressive on/close to the bubble - this is only the case if everyone at the table is playing super tight on the bubble and we can bully the table.
easy shove go ftw if u min cash say 5 out of 20 mtts if u come 1st in 1 of the 20 mtts u make more money so always go ftw Posted by IDONKCALLU
(Based on last nights tourney) 5 min cashes @ £32 = £160
1x 1st place cash = £170
Not that much difference
But on a serious note, yes of course it's better to have one 1st place than a couple of min cashes but like what Ivanovic says, sometimes things are not so clear cut.
This really is as bog standard as a tournament gets. The only reason to do anything other than open ship this is if you need that £32 to eat next week. Even then, you should still be getting it in here.
Not sure if you're attention seeking or if you genuinely needed some other opinions, but if you're struggling with this aspect of tournament poker then it's back to the drawing board I think.
This really is as bog standard as a tournament gets. The only reason to do anything other than open ship this is if you need that £32 to eat next week. Even then, you should still be getting it in here. Not sure if you're attention seeking or if you genuinely needed some other opinions, but if you're struggling with this aspect of tournament poker then it's back to the drawing board I think. Posted by hhyftrftdr
If you need $32 to eat you shouldn't be entering an $11 tourney.
I am shoving all day long - just don't think it is a clearcut mistake to minraise here once in a while to disguise your range - as long as you do it knowing it's not optimal and don't get wedded to it post flop. Ideally I would want 15+bb to min raise. With it being a bubble situation I think the minraise is +ev just not as much as the shove.
I don't think Double or Ivanovic are struggling with anything here - and it's always good to explore different lines and get feedback. I learned a lot the other day by suggesting a raise in a spot where I knew I would have probably called myself.
In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem : If you need $32 to eat you shouldn't be entering an $11 tourney. I am shoving all day long - just don't think it is a clearcut mistake to minraise here once in a while to disguise your range - as long as you do it knowing it's not optimal and don't get wedded to it post flop. Ideally I would want 15+bb to min raise. With it being a bubble situation I think the minraise is +ev just not as much as the shove. I don't think Double or Ivanovic are struggling with anything here - and it's always good to explore different lines and get feedback. I learned a lot the other day by suggesting a raise in a spot where I knew I would have probably called myself. Posted by Phantom66
In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem : Are you min raising 77 or AJ (for example) here? Posted by hhyftrftdr
Jamming. as I would AK. I'm just exploring Ivanovic's comments with an open mind.
Think we have 2 choices
1. Jam any hand we are entering with ever in that position (+makes decisions easy, +provides disguise in that all bets are the same, +folds out a lot of hands that cant afford to call but would have liked to seen a flop -less likely to get called by a hand we dominate)
2. Selectively minraise some hands
Minraise range depends on how I see the blinds playing. Range might be very wide if they are particularly tight/passive pre or post flop should they miss.
IF we are going down the minraise route sometimes we need to be careful we are not giving our opponents obvious signals as to what we minraise as opposed to jamming with. If it is obvious we are stealing a lot of the time we are going to get reraised. Both those points give us a reason to minraise with a selection of premium hands too - but we should mix it up and jam with hands we would normally minraise too.
I like to keep poker simple so I am normally an option 1 kind of guy <15bb
Some make that switch at 10bb - so I don't think Ivanovic's line is so out of line.
This really is as bog standard as a tournament gets. The only reason to do anything other than open ship this is if you need that £32 to eat next week. Even then, you should still be getting it in here. Not sure if you're attention seeking or if you genuinely needed some other opinions, but if you're struggling with this aspect of tournament poker then it's back to the drawing board I think. Posted by hhyftrftdr
No I do not need the £32 to eat next week, hence why I shoved and didn't min-raise or fold I just thought it was worthy of discussing to see peoples view points on the min-raise.
As for attention seeking? really? why would posting this particular hand be attention seeking? Would you rather me not contribute anything at all to the forum?
You can already see that I we have Ivanovic who likes the idea of min-raising here and he explains why, and then you have Phantom and myself that also recognise that it's +EV to be doing that. I myself prefer to shove but I do like to look at all aspects. Oh and struggling? no I'm not struggling, doing rather well actually but thank you for your concern.
Tbf, we have 12xBB and AK... pretty much anything other than folding is gonna be +EV.... limping is probably +EV lol, but we're always looking for the MOST +EV option
If I was blind v blind or on the button and the pot unopened then id still have a balanced min raising range at 13bb. It might not be optimal but it sure exploits players nicely. With multiple players to act id just jam a less balanced range and look to take the pot, as people will recognise that a utg mjn raise screams strength and would be less inclined to jam their KJo/A3 type hands. Also if our min raise gets called by a passive medium stack then other bigish stacks get the odds to call with their JTs T9 type hands which would be a disaster for us OOP.
Sky has no ante's so shoving more than 10bbs means we are winning less than a 15% chip up uncontested and so the risk vs reward is not that big. In a tournament ante's 10bbs plays so much different because we get ~ 25% chip up uncontested. Also because of sky having no ante's we still have fold equity right down to 6/7bbs. Playing in a tournament with ante's our fold equity becomes almost non-existent with that stack size.
Teddy makes a good point about why we might not want to raise UTG with AK but if table is playing normal you usually expect a raise UTG to get enough folds most of the time. Also even getting 3 callers is not neccessarily a disaster. We still have 11bb and on A or K flops can often get stacks in very good and on low dry boards we can often c-bet/take it down or c-bet/call against an aggressive villain/fold against a passive. Our c-bet only needs to be really small because of the stack sizes and how our range looks in this spot.
How short?? lol we're not dribbling away our chips by min-r AK it's a +ev play. OK sometimes it won't work out and we might have to fold. Yes that does suck when we have a hand we are happy to get it in pre with. But a lot of the time it works out nicely and we either take down with a c-bet and get up to a 17+bb stack or we get it in with great equity vs opponents range and double up the majority of the time.
Part of the reason I used to suck at tourneys was because I thought you could only ever shove/fold with less than 15bb's. Which on sky is just not true - and I found a lot of the times I did shove in what I thought was an OK spot that I was crushed when called. Yes I won 1.5bbs when not called but the risk/reward just didn't seem worth it to me. Obv with AK we will rarely be crushed when called but do we really want to be just jamming JJ+ and AK/AQ UTG? Are we just going to fold AJ, KQ, KJ, TT and worse?
4 handed I think its safe to say that villains percieve our range as wider, even UTG.
And in bounty hunters people are more likely to call wider too. BB has a big stack and can take a hit and is more likely to call with rags to take the bounty.
If we are just min raising with AK, AA, KK, QQ and shoving with AQ- JJ- then our range is totally exploitable. We need to be shoving with our premium as well as our A10s and type hands with about 13bb.
Was talking about 13bbs not 10bbs. Obviously 10bbs it's an easy jam!
To be honest I like to open limp a lot on the button rather than min-r as well even as short as 10bb effective. Far too many players will let you get away with it and it's just super profitable to c-bet most flops really small and take it down! I can show you a ton of examples in the torunament I'm currently in of why this is so
Comments
This isnt an interesting spot.
This is as standard as it gets.
Woudn't worry about what if's
what if you fold and he sits back in straight after
---
m/r w/13bb is in many ways a terrible play espcially if your thinking about folding the flop
5 min cashes @ £32 = £160
1x 1st place cash = £170
Not that much difference
But on a serious note, yes of course it's better to have one 1st place than a couple of min cashes but like what Ivanovic says, sometimes things are not so clear cut.
I am shoving all day long - just don't think it is a clearcut mistake to minraise here once in a while to disguise your range - as long as you do it knowing it's not optimal and don't get wedded to it post flop. Ideally I would want 15+bb to min raise. With it being a bubble situation I think the minraise is +ev just not as much as the shove.
I don't think Double or Ivanovic are struggling with anything here - and it's always good to explore different lines and get feedback. I learned a lot the other day by suggesting a raise in a spot where I knew I would have probably called myself.
Think we have 2 choices
1. Jam any hand we are entering with ever in that position (+makes decisions easy, +provides disguise in that all bets are the same, +folds out a lot of hands that cant afford to call but would have liked to seen a flop -less likely to get called by a hand we dominate)
2. Selectively minraise some hands
Minraise range depends on how I see the blinds playing. Range might be very wide if they are particularly tight/passive pre or post flop should they miss.
IF we are going down the minraise route sometimes we need to be careful we are not giving our opponents obvious signals as to what we minraise as opposed to jamming with. If it is obvious we are stealing a lot of the time we are going to get reraised. Both those points give us a reason to minraise with a selection of premium hands too - but we should mix it up and jam with hands we would normally minraise too.
I like to keep poker simple so I am normally an option 1 kind of guy <15bb
Some make that switch at 10bb - so I don't think Ivanovic's line is so out of line.
As for attention seeking? really? why would posting this particular hand be attention seeking? Would you rather me not contribute anything at all to the forum?
You can already see that I we have Ivanovic who likes the idea of min-raising here and he explains why, and then you have Phantom and myself that also recognise that it's +EV to be doing that. I myself prefer to shove but I do like to look at all aspects. Oh and struggling? no I'm not struggling, doing rather well actually but thank you for your concern.
surely people are getting confused with a 30bb and a 13bb stack.
then again it is sky and i am sure many people feel 13bb is 30bb
well it could be turbo tuesday and we have a monster stack
Ivan seriously if your that short how the **** do you expect to stay afloat without shoving % of range
or are you just staying lets dribble by m/r out of short stacks
what % of range are we m/r just to stay in the game so we don't blind away
o no let's compound the problem by dribbling 1bb away once or twice an orbit
this doesn't sound like a strat - just playing hands in a vaccum - o look I have AA I could m/r this out of 11bb - o look everyyone folds - wp me
And in bounty hunters people are more likely to call wider too. BB has a big stack and can take a hit and is more likely to call with rags to take the bounty.
If we are just min raising with AK, AA, KK, QQ and shoving with AQ- JJ- then our range is totally exploitable. We need to be shoving with our premium as well as our A10s and type hands with about 13bb.