what does a balanced min raising range at 13bb look like and how does it exploit players nicely surely people are getting confused with a 30bb and a 13bb stack. then again it is sky and i am sure many people feel 13bb is 30bb well it could be turbo tuesday and we have a monster stack Posted by rancid
in a tournament 13bb is deep, certainly playable. and i think you can do better in some spots than a brute shove/fold game. i've explained why i wouldn't be minraising UTG, but when it's folded to us and we're on the button or small blind then i absolutely would have a minraise/fold range. i'll explain my reasoning.
we are on the button/SB, it's folded to us and it's the bubble of an MTT. opportunites to steal chips do not come better than this and we want to include as many bluffs as we can get away with without being owned. we could shove nash from the SB, but that is a -EV play this deep, and i think we can do better.
imagine the BB holds a hand like K4, Q7 or J8s. if we've been active in these steal spots he can't defend by calling, often OOP, from a 13bb eff stack [well he can, but...], if he wants to defend he's likely going to have to shove over the top of our minraise. he probably wants to jam here. however 13bbs deep those hands probably aren't calling a shove. this means the value of minraise calling AQ/KQ/KJ etc goes up a bunch.
we still get folds from all his 92 type junk so we can bundle a ton of minraise/fold hands to take advantage and also help induce. so we still get the same folds from junk, still get it in against hands that beat us, but also get jammed on by hands that we dominate that would otherwise fold. this makes up for the times that they jam over our minraise folding range when they would have folded to a shove. we maintain fold equity, our bluffs are cheaper and we have a much better chance of doubling.
we don't like being flatted but our range contains monsters as well as hands that connect with pretty much any flop texture, we sometimes have postition and the SPR's are low so we arent faced with too many difficult decisions.
not very well explained maybe, but hope it makes some sense.
i'd also be jamming a bunch of hands too btw, and i also think having a limping range is ok against some opponents.
i'm only a micro stakes player, maybe the games are mega different at the levels you play but, meh.
So your m/r down to 13bb and limping btn w/10bb wow you must be finding some super soft tables to play small ball strat with such a short stack Think we have opposing views on MTT strat Posted by rancid
10bb effective - I had 30bbs or so. And not really it's pretty standard to find plenty of players that will let you limp into them when they have a 10bb stack.
If I know someone in the BB is really tight and will only call/shove with the strongest of hands and plays passive post, then what sense does it make for me to shove 10bbs with A8o? I may get it through a lot and it will be +ev but when called I'm just so crushed vs their range. Whereas I can min-r and happily fold to a shove because I just know I don't have the right equity vs their range. Or alternatively I can limp with suited/high card hands and c-bet a ton and pick up their blinds just as easily and as often without risking my entire stack. Hence more +ev than just jamming.
Obviously vs someone that knows what they are doing I am never going to be min-r folding A8 on 10bbs and instead just shoving for max fold equity. But I think far too many players are afraid to deviate from shove/fold even though it's going to be more EV vs specific players to go down a different route.
Note that when I'm talking about 10bb and limping I'm only advocating this OTB maybe the CO if BTN is really tight. (and with the right opponents in the blinds)
4 handed I think its safe to say that villains percieve our range as wider, even UTG. And in bounty hunters people are more likely to call wider too. BB has a big stack and can take a hit and is more likely to call with rags to take the bounty. If we are just min raising with AK, AA, KK, QQ and shoving with AQ- JJ- then our range is totally exploitable. We need to be shoving with our premium as well as our A10s and type hands with about 13bb. Posted by gazza127
This was not a BH it was a freezeout but like you said, you would expect bb with his big stack to call quite wide, which is what was doing, however he was playing fit/fold on the flop which made him really easy to play against post-flop. This is a big reason as to why I questioned whether or not a min-raise would have been the better option given the table dynamics.
@ Teddy 13bb is not deep and is not playable - Think we have opposing approaches to MTT play when short @ivan, ok so you are putting pressure on 10bb stacks - that's fine but I actually prefer a m/r not ever a flat on btn Posted by rancid
13bb can be playable especially when no antes are involved. Example blinds are 300/600 We can m/r btn 1200, bb flats so pot is 2700, we can then fire a bet ~900 which would mean we have bet a total of 2100, 3.5bbs leaving us with 9.5bbs.
Yeh we don't wanna be putting in 25% of our stack and folding too often though do we.
FWIW, I agree with some of the above to an extent, I think 13xBB is the absolute bottom of the barrel to be raise/folding but we can do it in the right spots. Preferably in later position and like Ivan said, only against very tight people. As he said, if we ship BvB into a very tight player with A9o, we get snapped off when crushed and get snap folds otherwise, a lot of these players won't have a different reship range to their calling range here so with A9o we can m/r and fold to a raise/shove knowing we're just never getting exploited and we're risking the minimum for the odd time they have a like top 5% hand.
That said, as above, 13xBB is the absolute bottom we can mr/fold imo and I wouldn't be doing it UTG. So if I'm never mr/folding UTG, then obv that means when I mr I'm calling ships with 100% of my range. And for that reason, I'd rather ship myself (when UTG)
@ Teddy 13bb is not deep and is not playable - Think we have opposing approaches to MTT play when short
lol, yah 'deep' was hyperbole-ish...
whats the cut off for open shoving then? 15, 17bb?
i'm only talking about the SB or Button position when it's folded to us. obv steal spots that people will jam lighter over. if they fold more, great our bluffs just got cheaper and more profitable. [the chips we lose here are more valuable than the ones we win, so that's a consideration].
i think you are burning ev by eg open-shoving AA 15bb deep when you're the SB v BB or button v blinds
i think the same holds for 13bb deep.
i think the same holds for hands like KQs.
shove/fold is not the be all and end all at these depths for me.
aside from the specific situation of button/SB positions in unopened pots i agree that it's better to just SoF
Open shoving 15 or 17BB without antes is horrible play imo. Risk too large for reward and again just creates that situation of getting loads of folds then when we get called we're crushed and probably out the tourney. Obv the odd time we can cooler someone AA v KK or w/e but if we're shoving a decent sized range we're just gonna be crushed SO often.
Tbf, it does also depend on the table about how low we go and how we play our shortstack, which people don't seem to be taking into account. With 15xBB+ I'm definitely minraising 100% of my range (obv range depends on table) from any positon on any table on Sky, below that it comes a little more situation dependent.
Yeh we don't wanna be putting in 25% of our stack and folding too often though do we. FWIW, I agree with some of the above to an extent, I think 13xBB is the absolute bottom of the barrel to be raise/folding but we can do it in the right spots. Preferably in later position and like Ivan said, only against very tight people. As he said, if we ship BvB into a very tight player with A9o, we get snapped off when crushed and get snap folds otherwise, a lot of these players won't have a different reship range to their calling range here so with A9o we can m/r and fold to a raise/shove knowing we're just never getting exploited and we're risking the minimum for the odd time they have a like top 5% hand. That said, as above, 13xBB is the absolute bottom we can mr/fold imo and I wouldn't be doing it UTG. So if I'm never mr/folding UTG, then obv that means when I mr I'm calling ships with 100% of my range. And for that reason, I'd rather ship myself (when UTG) Posted by Lambert180
In this scenario we were 4 handed so in effect the utg is also the CO so we only have to pass the btn..
One of the biggest mistakes I see on Sky (in my opinion of course) is people waiting too long to get busy with a short stack. Yes, there are no antes. But people seem to like waiting until 10bb deep or so before feeling they can be shoving. This is wrong I feel, and more often than not leads us to getting super short and thus leaving our fold equity out in the cold.
Down to 10bb, card/spot dead for 2 orbits and suddenly we have a 7bb stack. When we are down to the 15-20bb stack, we should be using this size to its absolute maximum; 3bet shoving potentially quite light vs certain villains. Perhaps open jamming towards 20bb is a bit off, but 15 or under is fine by me.
In this specific example, we are only 4 handed. We will be in the blinds 50% of the time. Any opportunity we have to pinch chips with a 13bb stack should be taken. Any chips we can nick without seeing a flop keeps our heads above water and doesn't risk our tournament life. We can make no mistakes with a 13bb stack. Anything other than open shipping AK (or indeed our whole range) here is a mistake I think.
Pretty much a +1 to what Rancid has said. Obviously people approach MTT's in a different mode, but shortstack poker is pretty one dimensional.
One of the biggest mistakes I see on Sky (in my opinion of course) is people waiting too long to get busy with a short stack
See I agree with this but not for the reasons you gave. A lot of people seem to think they have to shove or fold at 15bbs deep or less which leads to extremely tight shoving ranges because jamming with a wide range just doesn't have enough risk/reward.
I guess it's all personal preference but any more than 10bbs and I think there's always more options than just shove/fold.
One of the biggest mistakes I see on Sky (in my opinion of course) is people waiting too long to get busy with a short stack
See I agree with this but not for the reasons you gave. A lot of people seem to think they have to shove or fold at 15bbs deep or less which leads to extremely tight shoving ranges because jamming with a wide range just doesn't have enough risk/reward. I guess it's all personal preference but any more than 10bbs and I think there's always more options than just shove/fold. Posted by F_Ivanovic
You genuinely think that 11/12bb is still a raising stack? Serious question by the way! Intrigued....
In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem : You genuinely think that 11/12bb is still a raising stack? Serious question by the way! Intrigued.... Posted by hhyftrftdr
Yes
11bb 2x raise = 9bb. c-bet/fold = leaves us with 8-8.5bb. Obviously we won't be c-bet/folding much (we can chk fold some boards too) but at minimum we still have 8bb's. Still have fold equity with this stack and a couple of steal shoves and we're back up to over 10bbs.
In Response to Re: £250 Gtd £11, AKo utg, Bubble, ICM problem : You genuinely think that 11/12bb is still a raising stack? Serious question by the way! Intrigued.... Posted by hhyftrftdr
In a heads up sng playing exclusive shove or fold 12bbs deep would be bad. Think this can apply to certain mtt spots such as SB v BB / button v blinds. Does open shipping AA 12bb deep yield the best expectation? If it doesnt then you have to be minraising it, surely.
Really respect the opinion of the people in this thread btw, dont have any poker mates so threads like this are a gold mine for me, especially so as you are all vastly more experienced and skilled than I am. Dont want to come across as a know it all upstart, but being able to debate, challenge and be challenged is proper helpful. Just so ye know.
This has been a very good debate as to whether we min raise or shove with 10-13bbs. It's always good to view things with an open mind as nothing is concrete and poker is always evolving. It was only around 3 years ago that a min raise was frowned upon.
The issue with that arguement tho Teddy is that it's about the best expectation for our range, not for AA or w/e.
Are we gonna start raising different amounts with 22 than with AA because of our expectation for that one particular hand?
For instance, some people with 10xBB shove 22-JJ, but then give them QQ+ and it's a minraise cos they're desperate for action? We don't want to be this face up so we have to take maybe less expectation from some hands to get more from others for the good of our whole range.
I see that point, and its a great one, lambert which is why I'd be minraise folding a bunch of stuff too. Id still be jamming hands, the beauty of 11-13 bb stack depths is that there are a bunch of hands like A2o or K4s that we can also unexploitably shove if we want to blind on blind, shoving small pairs is also not open for exploitation at these depths.. So we can take advantage of the property of our hand whilst still remaining pretty balanced. Also we get the added value of both cheaper bluffs with our minr/F range and getting to call light resteals with hands like AQ AA that crush resteal hands like Q8o or J9s that might otherwise fold to a shove.
I dunno, how active do we need to ge 13bb deep and away from the money? It's all about accumulating chips and doing so cheaply here, and fast, non?
Im not going to be playing face-up hopefully, but having a mixed strat at these depths is fine imo. It allows us to bluff without putting our entire stack at risk, bluff more often, and gives us a better chance of a double up. Again im talking about when fokded to us in the SB or button.
Comments
and limping btn w/10bb
wow you must be finding some super soft tables to play small ball strat with such a short stack
Think we have opposing views on MTT strat
Think we have opposing approaches to MTT play when short
@ivan, ok so you are putting pressure on 10bb stacks - that's fine but I actually prefer a m/r not ever a flat on btn
FWIW, I agree with some of the above to an extent, I think 13xBB is the absolute bottom of the barrel to be raise/folding but we can do it in the right spots. Preferably in later position and like Ivan said, only against very tight people. As he said, if we ship BvB into a very tight player with A9o, we get snapped off when crushed and get snap folds otherwise, a lot of these players won't have a different reship range to their calling range here so with A9o we can m/r and fold to a raise/shove knowing we're just never getting exploited and we're risking the minimum for the odd time they have a like top 5% hand.
That said, as above, 13xBB is the absolute bottom we can mr/fold imo and I wouldn't be doing it UTG. So if I'm never mr/folding UTG, then obv that means when I mr I'm calling ships with 100% of my range. And for that reason, I'd rather ship myself (when UTG)
whats the cut off for open shoving then? 15, 17bb?
i'm only talking about the SB or Button position when it's folded to us. obv steal spots that people will jam lighter over. if they fold more, great our bluffs just got cheaper and more profitable. [the chips we lose here are more valuable than the ones we win, so that's a consideration].
i think you are burning ev by eg open-shoving AA 15bb deep when you're the SB v BB or button v blinds
i think the same holds for 13bb deep.
i think the same holds for hands like KQs.
shove/fold is not the be all and end all at these depths for me.
aside from the specific situation of button/SB positions in unopened pots i agree that it's better to just SoF
cheers,
TEDDY
Tbf, it does also depend on the table about how low we go and how we play our shortstack, which people don't seem to be taking into account. With 15xBB+ I'm definitely minraising 100% of my range (obv range depends on table) from any positon on any table on Sky, below that it comes a little more situation dependent.
cheers,
TEDDY
Are we gonna start raising different amounts with 22 than with AA because of our expectation for that one particular hand?
For instance, some people with 10xBB shove 22-JJ, but then give them QQ+ and it's a minraise cos they're desperate for action? We don't want to be this face up so we have to take maybe less expectation from some hands to get more from others for the good of our whole range.