In Response to Re: Can a chicken go pro? : I'd snap assign 99-QQ. I think he's heavily weighted towards these hands. Maybe some AQ, AJs, even Ace Kings....... Think readless I auto put him on TT/JJ and go from there. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
That's exactly what I was thinking, but also sometimes AA and KK as a reverse squeeze- knowing I am committed to calling a shove from the button...
I'd say 99+. And this villain will consider 99 to be the nuts on a 7 high board. But we have a 9 so that pair is unlikely. I'll go with 1010. Which is why it is such a sweet spot if we have AA/KK, but not such a sweet spot with just the A9s. In answer to the previous post, yes I would lead out, fully expecting him to ship his (not so) massive overpair. Posted by hhyftrftdr
And then call it off?
...that would be ICM suicide vs an overpair, and bet folding is worse than check folding. Exactly why I went for a check shove, but had to back out.
big stack vs a constant stealer pretty wide looking for an opportunity to use his stack against you Posted by GELDY
This is possible, but I dont think its a likely as you think it is - I had been opening quite alot, but I cant remember a single 3bet whilst on that table up to that point...
In Response to Re: Can a chicken go pro? : And then call it off? ...that would be ICM suicide vs an overpair, and bet folding is worse than check folding. Exactly why I went for a check shove, but had to back out. Posted by chicknMelt
TBH I don't think he would ship over the top. I'd deffo be betting this flop, looking/hoping to either hit the goods or see a high turn to ship.
Yeah I'm not really sure what he would do with 99/TT between call or shove, but I don't like either...
U certainly ain't bad ( I've ss'd u, what a run u had for 200 games or so!) - I value ur opinion greatly, as with all the others that have commented. I wasn't expecting many people to agree with my line- I wouldn't either in most circumstances, just happened to think this time was different.
Well, that certainly was an interesting discussion about THAT hand!
Tuesday- I didn't play at all. I normally take Tuesdays off because they are my least favourite main, so I do some stuff outside of poker, like spend time with my wife!
It's been a very long week for me this week. I can normally get up around 8:30, to be in work for 9:30. But this week has been a little different. After winning the big bh on Monday, naturally I was buzzing a bit, and couldn't sleep for an hour or 2 afterwards, think I finally got to sleep at 4am. But I had to be in work an hour early on tues, so that meant getting up at 7:30...I can cope with that for one night. So on Tuesday I planned to have an early night (around midnight, which is early for me) but still found myself browsing the internet at 2:30am... I had to be up at 5:30am for a 3hr drive to another site for work, so that didn't really go to plan either. so, 6.5 hrs sleep in 2 nights!
After a full day at work, on the long drive back, shattered, I found myself wondering 'why am I sitting in the inside lane behind all this slow moving traffic, when the outside lane is completely empty...' So I moved out to overtake, before realising - erm, why are there headlights coming towards me...it was obviously just a normal road! Luckily I had only just pulled out and could easily pull back in. The cars behind me must have wondered what the **** I was doing! I should have taken this as a sign, skip poker tonight, you won't play well...
I didn't, and as predicted my evening was infested with mistakes. basic mistakes. I managed to stone bubble the main after being around 5/31 with 30 paid - I needlessly took a flip, and then Called of the other half of my stack with TP after I was clearly being slow played. The only other tourney I managed to stave off the mistakes for any length of time was in was the £11 bounty @ 9:30, which Igowawa decided to make up for all of his runbad, but only vs me! I shoved T7ss into a 8h9hxs board, only to walk into JThh - worst case scenario I believe! Then 15 mins or so later, I busted after calling his 4bet shove with AA vs his QJ, and he hit runner runner for a flush. oh well. gg.
I dropped about £240 last night- it's very hard to play consistently well when that tired! I've had a whopping 5 hours sleep last night, so should be on slightly better form tonight! I hardly feel refreshed though, so we'll see.
The only other hand I can rmember, is my bust from the big BH, there was a limper, and I had JJ in the CO, so I made my standard iso raise, and the limper called. the board was T84ss, after getting checked to, I made a standard cbet, and the villain over bet shoved. After tanking for a bit, I decided it was most likely AT/KT, or a draw of some kind - there was plenty, so I called... they had 84 and held lol. cant remember the chipstacks exactly, but I know I would have been very comfortable if I folded (around average), and it was a huge overbet (3x pot maybe)...not sure if I would have laid it down or not had I not been so tired...
Just had a read through the Ac9c hand and thought I would add my 2 cents worth
3bet size looks rather big and you're committed to calling a 4bet shove from btn. If he is opening wide, then perhaps 3betting smaller as he will fold and if you feel that it induces a shove, you're still going to be way ahead of his range.
Now let's get to the bb, well, yes it's rather suspcious to say the least and I would be very careful here. It certainly looks like a monster given the dynamics you have mentioned. If he was making a 'play' against you then he would be 4bet raising, not flatting, this tells me he has a big pocket pair as I feel he would also be 4betting AK, AQ, AJ as flatting those hands would be awful.
So on the flop you check and he bets big, you have 0 fold equity here, but you do have 12 outs (9xclubs, 3xAce, unless he is holding AA) I think we can safely rule out villian holding Ax hands and are looking at over pairs so we are ~ 45% vs 99+ range.
I can understand your reasoning for folding as this really is a gamble spot and as you say, you can gain chips and rebuild in other hands. This is definitely a +cEV call, but ICM wise, I haven't ran it, but I think it is looking like a fold, so long as your reads are spot-on vs villian.
The only thing I can disagree with you is the 3bet sizing pf as I feel that you can 3bet smaller and have the same impact.
Just had a read through the Ac9c hand and thought I would add my 2 cents worth 3bet size looks rather big and you're committed to calling a 4bet shove from btn. If he is opening wide, then perhaps 3betting smaller as he will fold and if you feel that it induces a shove, you're still going to be way ahead of his range. Now let's get to the bb, well, yes it's rather suspcious to say the least and I would be very careful here. It certainly looks like a monster given the dynamics you have mentioned. If he was making a 'play' against you then he would be 4bet raising, not flatting, this tells me he has a big pocket pair as I feel he would also be 4betting AK, AQ, AJ as flatting those hands would be awful. So on the flop you check and he bets big, you have 0 fold equity here, but you do have 12 outs (9xclubs, 3xAce, unless he is holding AA) I think we can safely rule out villian holding Ax hands and are looking at over pairs so we are ~ 45% vs 99+ range. I can understand your reasoning for folding as this really is a gamble spot and as you say, you can gain chips and rebuild in other hands. This is definitely a +cEV call, but ICM wise, I haven't ran it, but I think it is looking like a fold, so long as your reads are spot-on vs villian. The only thing I can disagree with you is the 3bet sizing pf as I feel that you can 3bet smaller and have the same impact. Congrats on the recent bink btw! Posted by DoubleAAA
at last, someone agrees - the reason for the large 3bet was becasue when the button has < 20bb, I normally shove or fold, but couldnt do this with the BB having me covered etc, so I chose a size that would commit me (and the button would know I'm committed) to a button shove, but not a BB shove. I had also been experimenting with 3.5x 3bet sizes OP anyway (mostly alot earlier in tourneys though to be fair) - think I used both as an "excuse" at some point in the discussion... I was more interested in the post flop comments anyway.
In Response to Re: Can a chicken go pro? : at last, someone agrees - the reason for the large 3bet was becasue when the button has < 20bb, I normally shove or fold, but couldnt do this with the BB having me covered etc, so I chose a size that would commit me (and the button would know I'm committed) to a button shove, but not a BB shove. I had also been experimenting with 3.5x 3bet sizes OP anyway (mostly alot earlier in tourneys though to be fair) - think I used both as an "excuse" at some point in the discussion... I was more interested in the post flop comments anyway. Posted by chicknMelt
Thing is when you make it this size, btn surely realises that he has 0% fold equity so will only be shoving a good hand, whilst, if you make your 3bet smaller, you can induce the btn to shove wide, whereby you have his range crushed. Unless of course you did not want btn to shove wide on you?
Going back to the flop, I would also fold this, as the BB calling us pf was not part of the plan and we have to believe he has 99+.
well done on crushing the £3 and £5 tourneys btw double - when am I likely to come up against you in the £10+ games? cant be far off it?... Posted by chicknMelt
Cheers! We've met once in the £55 Primo (I finished 12th, think you finished top 4). Hopefully It'll be after xmas as I have used a large part of my bankroll this year for 2 holidays and xmas! I also grind the stts on 888 which are quite profitable but hugely boring
The only other hand I can rmember, is my bust from the big BH, there was a limper, and I had JJ in the CO, so I made my standard iso raise, and the limper called. the board was T84ss, after getting checked to, I made a standard cbet, and the villain over bet shoved. After tanking for a bit, I decided it was most likely AT/KT, or a draw of some kind - there was plenty, so I called... they had 84 and held lol. cant remember the chipstacks exactly, but I know I would have been very comfortable if I folded (around average), and it was a huge overbet (3x pot maybe)...not sure if I would have laid it down or not had I not been so tired... what would you do in that spot? Posted by chicknMelt
read less I should fold although in game I might end up levelling myself into a call but ICM and all that as you like to quote says insta fold I would guess
As for the A9 hand i don,t understand all this ICM stuff ( i prefer to just go with my gut instinct ) but the 3 bet pre does look a bit big , but then again you said you,ve been experimenting with different bet-sizing which is fine. On the flop i,d be looking to get it all in with the amount of outs you,ve got . i presume you still don,t know what he had?
Was it on a TV table ? If so have you thought about sending the hand into the show and finding out what you were up against ?
what about calling 3bets with 34s - bout 25-30bb deep lol obvs think u can outplay me pre Posted by LnarinOO
erm..was that the one that I backed myself into a flush? lol
Yeah, wasn't playing the greatest as I said... but at least it was a semi playable hand, and you had been 3betting me very wide.
@Geldy - yep, your right, snap fold probably, unless I think they are the type of player that would play TP like that, but I didnt have that read. bad play me.
@MP33 - ICM is basically your average payout based your chipstack, it works out the probability of you finishing in each position (disregarding any skill edges) and adds up the results to give you a total. obviously your chances of winning are 0 if your out, so it places a greater emphasis on survival that sometimes means passing up +ev spots that put your tournament life at risk, or vastly hurt your chances of winning were you to lose.
In Response to Re: Can a chicken go pro? : erm..was that the one that I backed myself into a flush? lol Yeah, wasn't playing the greatest as I said... but at least it was a semi playable hand, and you had been 3betting me very wide. @Geldy - yep, your right, snap fold probably, unless I think they are the type of player that would play TP like that, but I didnt have that read. bad play me. Posted by chicknMelt
Comments
Well, that certainly was an interesting discussion about THAT hand!
Tuesday- I didn't play at all. I normally take Tuesdays off because they are my least favourite main, so I do some stuff outside of poker, like spend time with my wife!
It's been a very long week for me this week. I can normally get up around 8:30, to be in work for 9:30. But this week has been a little different. After winning the big bh on Monday, naturally I was buzzing a bit, and couldn't sleep for an hour or 2 afterwards, think I finally got to sleep at 4am. But I had to be in work an hour early on tues, so that meant getting up at 7:30...I can cope with that for one night. So on Tuesday I planned to have an early night (around midnight, which is early for me) but still found myself browsing the internet at 2:30am... I had to be up at 5:30am for a 3hr drive to another site for work, so that didn't really go to plan either. so, 6.5 hrs sleep in 2 nights!
After a full day at work, on the long drive back, shattered, I found myself wondering 'why am I sitting in the inside lane behind all this slow moving traffic, when the outside lane is completely empty...' So I moved out to overtake, before realising - erm, why are there headlights coming towards me...it was obviously just a normal road! Luckily I had only just pulled out and could easily pull back in. The cars behind me must have wondered what the **** I was doing! I should have taken this as a sign, skip poker tonight, you won't play well...
I didn't, and as predicted my evening was infested with mistakes. basic mistakes. I managed to stone bubble the main after being around 5/31 with 30 paid - I needlessly took a flip, and then Called of the other half of my stack with TP after I was clearly being slow played. The only other tourney I managed to stave off the mistakes for any length of time was in was the £11 bounty @ 9:30, which Igowawa decided to make up for all of his runbad, but only vs me! I shoved T7ss into a 8h9hxs board, only to walk into JThh - worst case scenario I believe! Then 15 mins or so later, I busted after calling his 4bet shove with AA vs his QJ, and he hit runner runner for a flush. oh well. gg.
I dropped about £240 last night- it's very hard to play consistently well when that tired! I've had a whopping 5 hours sleep last night, so should be on slightly better form tonight! I hardly feel refreshed though, so we'll see.
3bet size looks rather big and you're committed to calling a 4bet shove from btn. If he is opening wide, then perhaps 3betting smaller as he will fold and if you feel that it induces a shove, you're still going to be way ahead of his range.
Now let's get to the bb, well, yes it's rather suspcious to say the least and I would be very careful here. It certainly looks like a monster given the dynamics you have mentioned. If he was making a 'play' against you then he would be 4bet raising, not flatting, this tells me he has a big pocket pair as I feel he would also be 4betting AK, AQ, AJ as flatting those hands would be awful.
So on the flop you check and he bets big, you have 0 fold equity here, but you do have 12 outs (9xclubs, 3xAce, unless he is holding AA) I think we can safely rule out villian holding Ax hands and are looking at over pairs so we are ~ 45% vs 99+ range.
I can understand your reasoning for folding as this really is a gamble spot and as you say, you can gain chips and rebuild in other hands. This is definitely a +cEV call, but ICM wise, I haven't ran it, but I think it is looking like a fold, so long as your reads are spot-on vs villian.
The only thing I can disagree with you is the 3bet sizing pf as I feel that you can 3bet smaller and have the same impact.
Congrats on the recent bink btw!
Thing is when you make it this size, btn surely realises that he has 0% fold equity so will only be shoving a good hand, whilst, if you make your 3bet smaller, you can induce the btn to shove wide, whereby you have his range crushed. Unless of course you did not want btn to shove wide on you?
Going back to the flop, I would also fold this, as the BB calling us pf was not part of the plan and we have to believe he has 99+.
Cheers! We've met once in the £55 Primo (I finished 12th, think you finished top 4). Hopefully It'll be after xmas as I have used a large part of my bankroll this year for 2 holidays and xmas! I also grind the stts on 888 which are quite profitable but hugely boring
although in game I might end up levelling myself into a call
but ICM and all that
as you like to quote
says insta fold I would guess