For example - someone opening BTN a high % of the time will get 3-bet/played back a lot and we could end up with a dynamic where there is a lot of 3/4betting going on. Posted by F_Ivanovic
A good player will adjust to you accordingly, tightening their range and flatting your 3bets in position more (deep stack) or stack size dependant, 4bet jamming.
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : A good player will adjust to you accordingly, tightening their range and flatting your 3bets in position more (deep stack) or stack size dependant, 4bet jamming. Posted by DoubleAAA
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oxymoronic? Posted by GELDY
I meant tightening their range 'or' flatting your 3bets IP more but like he said that's 'if' he considers the person to be +ev to start with, and a person who adjusts accordingly would no longer be +ev for him, so long as he recognises the adjustment.
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : I don't know, it's tricky. I mean it's really not the best of rivers so would probably have to c/f although this hand is one of the better hands we can have to 3 barrel bluff. I'm not too sure either if we should be betting turn when they call a flop bet on this board since they will just have an A so often. But at the same time c/f turn would suck and at least if we only bet 1/3 pot we give ourselves a good price to hit OTR rather tIhan let our opponent stick in a hefty turn bet. A high boards when you have a FD are notoriously difficult to play - I mean on 742 with KQ fd we can happily barrel off because we can hit a K or a Q which will often be good - and in addition if opponent has a pair we can get him to fold on high scare cards. But here OTF we only have our FD and if opponent has an A there aren't any scare over cards that could come and we can't improve with a K or Q either. Somewhat related to this hand, I'm interested to hear your thoughts about bluffing/high variance lines in tournaments generally. As a cash player all I have to think about is whether or not I think something is +ev, and if it is then I'm good to go. For example - someone opening BTN a high % of the time will get 3-bet/played back a lot and we could end up with a dynamic where there is a lot of 3/4betting going on. It does't matter if there are weaker players in the game because if I lose (so long as it's a +ev play) then I can reload and still win money from the weaker players in other spots. But in a tournament, if I make the same +ev high variance play it doesn't seem quite as appealing because I will get more edge in other situations. However, if the BTN knows that you don't want to tangle with them because of this, he can just relentlessly raise you all day, so where do you draw the line? Posted by F_Ivanovic
very good question and a reason why mtts differ from cash in that middle game blind play is more important
however the key thing to think of is not how many of your blinds are being taken but what is your net balance attack + defense
so you don't have to take on the aggro player with position all the time - just pick your spots against them and be aggro attacking the blinds instead
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oxymoronic? Posted by GELDY
well if they tighten up, then their opening range is stronger so they will have a good enough hand to continue with (flat or 4bet) a higher % of the time
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : well if they tighten up, then their opening range is stronger so they will have a good enough hand to continue with (flat or 4bet) a higher % of the time Posted by LOL_RAISE
ok - update on last night, then I will replay later on to some of the questions..
bad night last night - stone bubbled a UKPC final seat and barely cashed in anything else.
Main - ran quite well, trebbling up twice in flip situations. actually, one of them was 88 v KK v QJ on a Jxx board lol - runner runner for a flush no cash though
Mini - finished 10th. happy with how I played, only question was over my exit hand: the SB is the big stack at the table, I have 60k @ 3k/6k levels in the BB. The SB has been the most active and has just doubled up a 15BB stack. action folds round to the SB, who shoves. I look down at A4o...what should I do? 10 remaining and I'm either 9/10 or 10/10, but have enough chips to last 1 more rotation and still have fold equity. Will probably look at the maths if I get a chance at some point too.
edit - Villains chipstack is around 200k
UKPC semi - played solid, ended up stone bubbling.
big BH - again played solid, but lost a big pot for a second bounty and to put me up with the chip leaders with AA v 87 on an 8Jx board. turn was an 8. sigh. a few hands later I 3bet jammed my last 10bb or so with AQ. called by AK. gg.
£11 turbo - ran up a gig chipstack and was chip leader for a while, but around the bubble I took 3 or 4 beats and couldnt hang in for a cash.
I'm not sure atm if I'm not playing well or if I'm just running bad - thats the horrible thing about being in a downswing! I feel like I'm getting it in good the vast majority of the time though.
£11 turbo - ran up a gig chipstack and was chip leader for a while, but around the bubble I took 3 or 4 beats and couldnt hang in for a cash. Posted by chicknMelt
oops - sorry about the turbo when i shoved my 11 BB with 33 out of the sb over your mr with JJ - and rivered the flush. left you with 8 bigs. nothing wrong with your play in that hand.
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oops - sorry about the turbo when i shoved my 11 BB with 33 out of the sb over your mr with JJ - and rivered the flush. left you with 8 bigs. nothing wrong with your play in that hand. Posted by GELDY
Rub-down?
Keep going chicknmelt, try your best to not let it affect your confidence. You'll come out of this downswing shortly I'm sure of it!
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : oops - sorry about the turbo when i shoved my 11 BB with 33 out of the sb over your mr with JJ - and rivered the flush. left you with 8 bigs. nothing wrong with your play in that hand. Posted by GELDY
lol, thanks for the reminder Geldy... I'd forgotten the details, but thats for bringing that back to the forefront
ok - update on last night, then I will replay later on to some of the questions.. bad night last night - stone bubbled a UKPC final seat and barely cashed in anything else. Main - ran quite well, trebbling up twice in flip situations. actually, one of them was 88 v KK v QJ on a Jxx board lol - runner runner for a flush no cash though Mini - finished 10th. happy with how I played, only question was over my exit hand: the SB is the big stack at the table, I have 60k @ 3k/6k levels in the BB. The SB has been the most active and has just doubled up a 15BB stack. action folds round to the SB, who shoves. I look down at A4o...what should I do? 10 remaining and I'm either 9/10 or 10/10, but have enough chips to last 1 more rotation and still have fold equity. Will probably look at the maths if I get a chance at some point too. edit - Villains chipstack is around 200k UKPC semi - played solid, ended up stone bubbling. big BH - again played solid, but lost a big pot for a second bounty and to put me up with the chip leaders with AA v 87 on an 8Jx board. turn was an 8. sigh. a few hands later I 3bet jammed my last 10bb or so with AQ. called by AK. gg. £11 turbo - ran up a gig chipstack and was chip leader for a while, but around the bubble I took 3 or 4 beats and couldnt hang in for a cash. I'm not sure atm if I'm not playing well or if I'm just running bad - thats the horrible thing about being in a downswing! I feel like I'm getting it in good the vast majority of the time though. Posted by chicknMelt
Saw this. Was surprised you went with the hand after the action. If i remember correctly UTG limped, I raised, got 3 calls behind including you, then UTG raised into 4 opponents. I dropped my 1010 instantly expecting this to be Aces A LOT. He's not limp/raising into 4 opponents light and I was a bit shocked you decided to go with 88 and shove. Of course it wasnt aces... it was kings, but they're pretty much the same
You got further than me in that tournament... i believe it was the £22 Deepstack. You saw me barrel three streets with air and throw my chip lead away. The quickness of the calls from the villain in question made me think he was on the flush draw - he was... but he just had top pair to go with it
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : I don't know, it's tricky. I mean it's really not the best of rivers so would probably have to c/f although this hand is one of the better hands we can have to 3 barrel bluff. I'm not too sure either if we should be betting turn when they call a flop bet on this board since they will just have an A so often. But at the same time c/f turn would suck and at least if we only bet 1/3 pot we give ourselves a good price to hit OTR rather tIhan let our opponent stick in a hefty turn bet. A high boards when you have a FD are notoriously difficult to play - I mean on 742 with KQ fd we can happily barrel off because we can hit a K or a Q which will often be good - and in addition if opponent has a pair we can get him to fold on high scare cards. But here OTF we only have our FD and if opponent has an A there aren't any scare over cards that could come and we can't improve with a K or Q either. Somewhat related to this hand, I'm interested to hear your thoughts about bluffing/high variance lines in tournaments generally. As a cash player all I have to think about is whether or not I think something is +ev, and if it is then I'm good to go. For example - someone opening BTN a high % of the time will get 3-bet/played back a lot and we could end up with a dynamic where there is a lot of 3/4betting going on. It does't matter if there are weaker players in the game because if I lose (so long as it's a +ev play) then I can reload and still win money from the weaker players in other spots. But in a tournament, if I make the same +ev high variance play it doesn't seem quite as appealing because I will get more edge in other situations. However, if the BTN knows that you don't want to tangle with them because of this, he can just relentlessly raise you all day, so where do you draw the line? Posted by F_Ivanovic
The way I see it:
The point that you should start playing back is variable (as you kind of suggest) depending on ICM and the skill levels at your table... so if you have a big stack, and another good player with a bigstack is relentlessly stealing your blinds from the button, then you should probably just let him if you have other weaker spots at the table that you can get your chips from more easily, on the other hand, on a tricky table with no obvious spots you might want to defend more agressivley. it also helps if you can put them in difficult ICM spots, for example, 3bet shoving for more chips than them on the bubble.
As you say though, if you let a good player get away with stealing your blinds, they will keep on doing it until you give them a reason not to - so if the situation allows it, it can be beneficial to play back at them at quite an early stage - if they are a good player they should realise there is easier spots at the table and target them instead.
not really a clear answer, I've basically just said "it depends"...
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : lol, thanks for the reminder Geldy... I'd forgotten the details, but thats for bringing that back to the forefront Posted by chicknMelt
your chips were jinxed though - ended up stone cold bubbling
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : Saw this. Was surprised you went with the hand after the action. If i remember correctly UTG limped, I raised, got 3 calls behind including you, then UTG raised into 4 opponents. I dropped my 1010 instantly expecting this to be Aces A LOT. He's not limp/raising into 4 opponents light and I was a bit shocked you decided to go with 88 and shove. Of course it wasnt aces... it was kings, but they're pretty much the same You got further than me in that tournament... i believe it was the £22 Deepstack. You saw me barrel three streets with air and throw my chip lead away. The quickness of the calls from the villain in question made me think he was on the flush draw - he was... but he just had top pair to go with it Posted by gazza127
My thinking was there is LOTS of dead money in the pot, I'm short, it might be AK lol... was looking for a gamble and it was a chance to treble up. normally I'm folding there though. this was the main I thought.
Yeah, I didnt actually see your spew hand, I do remember you being chip leader for pretty much the whole tourney until that though lol. I think my bust was pretty brutal in that too - again taking some beats right on the bubble.
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : My thinking was there is LOTS of dead money in the pot, I'm short, it might be AK lol... was looking for a gamble and it was a chance to treble up. normally I'm folding there though. this was the main I thought. Yeah, I didnt actually see your spew hand, I do remember you being chip leader for pretty much the whole tourney until that though lol. I think my bust was pretty brutal in that too - again taking some beats right on the bubble. Posted by chicknMelt
2 and a half hours I was chip leader...
2 and a half **** hours and then I go and make 1 mistake and its pretty much game over. Poker is brutal sometimes
Oh and I didnt play the main so it must have been the deepstack
In Response to Re: Can a chicken turn pro? : 2 and a half hours I was chip leader... 2 and a half **** hours and then I go and make 1 mistake and its pretty much game over. Poker is brutal sometimes Oh and I didnt play the main so it must have been the deepstack Posted by gazza127
SB's shoving range: 22-AA, Ax, Kx, QJ, QT, Q9, JT, J9, a few other randoms
A4 (my hand in the BB) has 50% equity vs this range
ICM Value before the hand = £162.5
if I fold, my ICM value is £154.5
if I call and win, my ICM value is £239.5
if I call and lose my ICM value is £60
fold = £154.5
call = (chance of winning x ICM value if I win) + (chance of losing x ICM value of losing) = (0.5 x 239.5) + (0.5 x 60)
call = 149.75
so actually, a fold was the best play. on Average, I will make an extra £4.75 by folding (or rather lose £4.75 less)
hmmm, suspected it was a mistake, but I felt like I needed to chip up to have a chance... There are times when it is correct to ignore ICM, but I'm not sure this was one of them
Im exactly the same regarding the £55 speed BH. Must of played it 50+ times & can only remember FT once lol - Dont bother buying in direct anymore, try a couple of £6 sats & thats me (not played it in ages though, cant seem to qualify).
You have been on my tables quite alot over the last 2 nights, got your game sussed now #iwish
Hi Chicken, Im exactly the same regarding the £55 speed BH. Must of played it 50+ times & can only remember FT once lol - Dont bother buying in direct anymore, try a couple of £6 sats & thats me (not played it in ages though, cant seem to qualify). You have been on my tables quite alot over the last 2 nights, got your game sussed now #iwish Posted by goodylad21
lol, I was gonna say... I dont even have my game sussed
I thought it would be a good idea to swap session "sweats" with someone. what I mean by this, is you record a session, someone else does the same, and you swap videos. The plan would be to both spot leaks, and pick up some moves you hadnt thought of.
When you have finished analysing the video you can point out mistakes you think they are making and ask questions about some of the lines they have taken... Would anyone be interested in this?
Comments
Keep going chicknmelt, try your best to not let it affect your confidence. You'll come out of this downswing shortly I'm sure of it!
Im exactly the same regarding the £55 speed BH. Must of played it 50+ times & can only remember FT once lol - Dont bother buying in direct anymore, try a couple of £6 sats & thats me (not played it in ages though, cant seem to qualify).
You have been on my tables quite alot over the last 2 nights, got your game sussed now #iwish