"As for those who keep saying to me "oh play the higher stake games, the rake is killing you" YEAH!?? well if I did that, then a run like this I'd a spun an entire £20 BR away in like just a few hours...when I've enjoyed 2x Months + with a £20 BR."
gary, the rake IS killing you. your graph has a very recognisable slope, and it is one of someone who is losing only to the rake. here is your graph showing pre-rake winnings / post rake losses in your favorite game: 60p DYMs.
as a comparision here is the same graph of someone who plays in the same games:
as you can see, they wouldnt be a winner even in a rake-free enviroment.
you're a winning player before rake in these games. you are losing only to the rake in your favorite game - and you are playing the highest raked games on the site. this obviously sucks.
so yah, take some time away to chill out. but when you come back, and if you can afford it, play games where the rake is less extortionate. 60p dyms are **** near unbeatable. you stand a chance of breaking even / having a free hobby in lower raked games.
and take jac up on his offer. he could charge a decent hourly rate for that type of assistance and regs would take him up on his offer.
have faith and keep learning and enjoying your poker.
as an aside. gary's graph and subsequent self-exclusion serves to show just how shocking the rake is at the micros. new players can be pretty big winners pre rake yet horrendous losers once sky have taken their huge slice. i cant see how this encourages novice players who might depost a few quid to 'see how it goes'.
seems like sky drains all liquidity out of that player pool, and it might be counter-productive if people like gary are self excluding as they feel like they cant improve in what is likely to be an unbeatable format [certainly for newer players] due to the unusually high rake.
as an aside. gary's graph and subsequent self-exclusion serves to show just how shocking the rake is at the micros. new players can be pretty big winners pre rake yet horrendous losers once sky have taken their huge slice. i cant see how this encourages novice players who might depost a few quid to 'see how it goes'. seems like sky drains all liquidity out of that player pool, and it might be counter-productive if people like gary are self excluding as they feel like they cant improve in what is likely to be an unbeatable format [certainly for newer players] due to the unusually high rake. ho hum, innit Posted by TeddyBloat
Been said for years.Reduced rake should attract new players increase player pool & get those already playing more.
Or keep it as it is with a shrinking micro player pool.
I've played micros stt's for years.Summer or winter any time after 11am you could get a game in 5-10 mins.But nowadays you can wait 20-30+ until late afternoon when things start pick up a little.
pre rake its a lovely uphill incline. post rake it's the exact mirror image.
i'd expect a decent pre rake winner who isn't quite beating the games to the point where he is profiting post-rake to maybe break even after rake; not an ugly downward slope.
how may other players must feel like they are hitting a brick wall of playing decently well, being better than the players around them, yet keep losing money. as gary said it hardly inspires you to deposit more and play slightly higher limits [where he'd actually putting more £'s in rake into the site]. for shame.
as an aside. gary's graph and subsequent self-exclusion serves to show just how shocking the rake is at the micros. new players can be pretty big winners pre rake yet horrendous losers once sky have taken their huge slice. i cant see how this encourages novice players who might depost a few quid to 'see how it goes'. seems like sky drains all liquidity out of that player pool, and it might be counter-productive if people like gary are self excluding as they feel like they cant improve in what is likely to be an unbeatable format [certainly for newer players] due to the unusually high rake. ho hum, innit Posted by TeddyBloat
+1
It's really poor from Sky. I had a long debate with several sky representatives about this, on this forum a couple of years ago.
Everything is so static and set in stone here. 3 years later, nothing has changed. The majority of new players stand absolutely no chance.
As an aside, Gary I've seen you comment on taking add ons in freerolls before. If/when you start playing these again, do not use your bankroll on freeroll add ons, it's terrible value.
Great offer from Jac, I hope you take him up on it and things start to turn around.
I thoroughly agree with the comments regarding the rake on micro stakes dyms.With a 20% rake, at the 60p level where I play you have to win 60% of games just to break even and it's unlikely a new player will win that many let alone make enough of a profit to move up the levels. It seems a mite unfair that the players with the smallest bankrolls are paying the highest percentage rake on the site. If the 20% was applied across all levels the big players on the site would be off for greener pastures in a flash. In my view a 10% rake at the lowest levels would be more than adequate and would give the new players some chance of making a profit thereby encouraging more newbies to join the site and hopefully move up to the higher levels.
bl00dy **** after reading the posts re pre rake profits, I played a lot of the miro dyms when I first came to sky. So I went to scope and checked the pre rake profit of my stats and the results/difference is startling to say the least, plus 131.00 pre rake and only 25.93 post erm wtf 4/5th of my winnings gone to the sky coffers....... get it sorted sky its extortionate
also if and when you come back to playing Gary you should be auto pming jac and taking him up on his offer if nothing else it will improve your confidence whilst playing, but something tells me you will get a lot more out of it than that
Just really bored of the clicky community on here now, I still stand what I said about the bellringing guy.
Forum is dead now, it used to be really good but since sky split the categories into clinic/ cash/ tournament etc it can be 2 days between replies, unheard of a while ago.
All the good posters have left now, we are just left with really boring diarys ( one or 2 exceptions ) BBV is getting more traffic than the clinic.
I genuinely think that a lot of people are getting jacked off with the game, blame football and the weather at this time of year.
Only a very small percentage of players make money at this game but we all think" it could be me".
You don't get any good luck messages in the chatbox anymore, everyone is just aggro.
A lot of posters say they all play for fun, but I can guarantee they will all think "ffs how can he call with that" and it messes your nite up when we lose, its not fun,
Poker is just gambling with a slight edge but most tourneys are decided on the flip of a coin, go figure.
Just really bored of the clicky community on here now, I still stand what I said about the bellringing guy. Forum is dead now, it used to be really good but since sky split the categories into clinic/ cash/ tournament etc it can be 2 days between replies, unheard of a while ago. All the good posters have left now, we are just left with really boring diarys ( one or 2 exceptions ) BBV is getting more traffic than the clinic. I genuinely think that a lot of people are getting jacked off with the game, blame football and the weather at this time of year. Only a very small percentage of players make money at this game but we all think" it could be me". You don't get any good luck messages in the chatbox anymore, everyone is just aggro. A lot of posters say they all play for fun, but I can guarantee they will all think "ffs how can he call with that" and it messes your nite up when we lose, its not fun, Poker is just gambling with a slight edge but most tourneys are decided on the flip of a coin, go figure. Posted by davelufc
So you stand by saying you would like to punch a guy? That hasnt done anything wrong but try to learn the game, because youfeel the forum is dead? What youtrying to do spice it up in ur unique way!
Well done you!
No goodluck messages and everybody is aggro?
Then you post something like that!
everybody is at different stages of their poker development and learn at different rates. Maybe he doesnt understand some of the advice that has been given to him, do you remember when you started playing and had to look at the hand rankings? Limp calling with aces right down to the river, making constant fishy plays because you were in fact learning how to play!
All in all you have made 3 or 4 posts to gary that I have noticed that are neither constructive or in the community spirit!
The you have the cheek to say all the good posters have gone, when you post constant garbage!
I like to read many forums and feel that thiis is by far the friendliest! Most others are just egotistical and belittle anybody who can't write like ivanovic! Look how many people have tried to help gary out! Where else would you find this?
Take a good long hard look at yourself and how you approach poker! Learn yourself from what is written on this diary, maybe you want be 3k in the red!
Dave you're in the red by £1.1k over 1.1k games in dyms with a -17.7% avg roi and yet you have the cheek to try and mock Gary (whom might I add has a better roi than you). You're losing almost £1 every time you load up a dym! If I were you, I would start to absorb some of the help that others have given you in the past eh!
Just really bored of the clicky community on here now, I still stand what I said about the bellringing guy. Forum is dead now, it used to be really good but since sky split the categories into clinic/ cash/ tournament etc it can be 2 days between replies, unheard of a while ago. All the good posters have left now, we are just left with really boring diarys ( one or 2 exceptions ) BBV is getting more traffic than the clinic. I genuinely think that a lot of people are getting jacked off with the game, blame football and the weather at this time of year. Only a very small percentage of players make money at this game but we all think" it could be me". You don't get any good luck messages in the chatbox anymore, everyone is just aggro. A lot of posters say they all play for fun, but I can guarantee they will all think "ffs how can he call with that" and it messes your nite up when we lose, its not fun, Poker is just gambling with a slight edge but most tourneys are decided on the flip of a coin, go figure. Posted by davelufc
Sorry to hijack the diary Gary, best of luck with whatever you decide to you!
Dave,
Do you want an active forum? Abusing people on the forum isn't likely to get them to come back so am a bit confused about your intentions.
Given the weather and the world cup it is hardly surprising that activity is down for both the tables and the forum. What is your basis for a lot of people getting jacked off with the game? For the majority poker is a form of entertainment which they pay for, the may win sometimes but overall they know they will lose. Some are happy with this and feel they get value for money. Some may want to try and improve their game. So when there are other forms of entertainment (hot weather/world cup etc) its not surprising that numbers drop. Numbers drop on all sites, its not a sky specific thing.
Maybe its the games you play but I often see gl messages in chat at the start of a tournament, when players you know are moved to your table and often when deep you see people on the rail with gl messages. If it concerns you, have you tried saying GL all when your table opens? Its easy to blame the world for everything, its a lot harder to actually do something positive.
In the short term the edge can be small but over sensible sample sizes the edge can be significant so I have to disagree with your last statement. If your night is messed up by losing then maybe poker isn't the game for you or you should play lower stakes where losing doesn't effect you as much.
In Response to Re: GaryLaud's diary TEMP SELF SUSPENSION (as at Fri June 20th, 2014) : So you stand by saying you would like to punch a guy? That hasnt done anything wrong but try to learn the game, because youfeel the forum is dead? What youtrying to do spice it up in ur unique way! Well done you! No goodluck messages and everybody is aggro? Then you post something like that! everybody is at different stages of their poker development and learn at different rates. Maybe he doesnt understand some of the advice that has been given to him, do you remember when you started playing and had to look at the hand rankings? Limp calling with aces right down to the river, making constant fishy plays because you were in fact learning how to play! All in all you have made 3 or 4 posts to gary that I have noticed that are neither constructive or in the community spirit! The you have the cheek to say all the good posters have gone, when you post constant garbage! I like to read many forums and feel that thiis is by far the friendliest! Most others are just egotistical and belittle anybody who can't write like ivanovic! Look how many people have tried to help gary out! Where else would you find this? Take a good long hard look at yourself and how you approach poker! Learn yourself from what is written on this diary, maybe you want be 3k in the red! Posted by BOOBOO81
You don't get any good luck messages in the chatbox anymore, everyone is just aggro. Posted by davelufc
Maybe this changes at higher levels where the money becomes more meaningful, but since the recent change in software (to make chatbox visible in mini view) there is way more non-aggro banter in the chatboxes at the micro levels.
Sure you still get the non-regs going off on one when their aces get cracked, but that's always happened at every online poker site and will continue forever more. Humans don't like bad beats and a minority are always going to be numpties when they take on.
Can't disagree about the forum bit though, does seem a lot quieter this past year (not just summer/world cup season where you expect quiter). Not sure how that can be fixed though, probably only through an influx of new players?
Just really bored of the clicky community on here now, I still stand what I said about the bellringing guy. Forum is dead now, it used to be really good but since sky split the categories into clinic/ cash/ tournament etc it can be 2 days between replies, unheard of a while ago. All the good posters have left now, we are just left with really boring diarys ( one or 2 exceptions ) BBV is getting more traffic than the clinic. I genuinely think that a lot of people are getting jacked off with the game, blame football and the weather at this time of year. Only a very small percentage of players make money at this game but we all think" it could be me". You don't get any good luck messages in the chatbox anymore, everyone is just aggro. A lot of posters say they all play for fun, but I can guarantee they will all think "ffs how can he call with that" and it messes your nite up when we lose, its not fun, Poker is just gambling with a slight edge but most tourneys are decided on the flip of a coin, go figure. Posted by davelufc
2 things.
a) ur a leeds fan. no one cares what u think
b) your a shockingly bad player, no one cares what you think
gary isnt a poker wiz, but just leave him to it, why does it bother you so much?
I havent read through all the replies but this has been a very interesting thread. Especially Gary since I started playing Poker around the same time as you. A self exclusion had crossed my mind aswell tbh, but since I am still a beginner I don't expect to be winning much anyway. As much as i concentrate on technique etc it is very frustrating when you do lose.
I would defo take up the offer from Jac (and if you don't I will be on him like a flash!) lol. I have just started trying to grind DYMs and reading John Connors blog and looking in the SnG section on here has helped me tremendously.
I think people see poker as a good way to make money and im not ashamed to think i did/still do - but i think for us beginners it is a big eye opener for a) the standard in micro stakes and b) the amount you seem to spun k on endless deposits, not matter how much you are trying to manage your BR. I think the name of the game is to enjoy it, if you don't then take some time out. No1 likes losing money mate (me more than anyone) but that is the risk you take.
I did wonder though what is ROI & rake? Is rake the money sky take from 'hosting the game?
Good luck on your future games when you come back & I hope to see you on the tables soon. Never know we could learn some tips from each other, I defo need to step it up.....but you have only been playing for 3 months like myself, dont let it get to you & keep trying to improve.
I think the name of the game is to enjoy it, if you don't then take some time out. No1 likes losing money mate (me more than anyone) but that is the risk you take. I did wonder though what is ROI & rake? Is rake the money sky take from 'hosting the game? Good luck on your future games when you come back & I hope to see you on the tables soon. Never know we could learn some tips from each other, I defo need to step it up.....but you have only been playing for 3 months like myself, dont let it get to you & keep trying to improve. All the best Posted by CardiffAce
lol it is tough not to see it as a 'get rich quick' opportunity, particularly with all the stories of big/consistent winners in the game... in the first instance, like all gambling, it should be seen as buying entertainment and anything else is a bonus... and let's be fair, 60p for 20-30 minutes entertainment aint a bad price!
Yep rake is the 'host' money that Sky (and all other sites) take on games.
ROI is Return on Investment - ie how much profit (or loss) you expect on average. I think good DYM players look to anywhere between 2% and 5% - ie for every £1 you pay, you expect to win back £1.02 - £1.05.
It doesn't look so much of a get rich quick thing when you stop to look at it like that
I think if my maths is right, you need to win 55 of every 100 games at £3.30 DYM or higher to breakeven. Winning 57 out of 100 gets you to 3.6% ROI.
By contrast at the lower buy-in games you'd need to win 62 / 100 games to get over 3% ROI...
At the higher value games that same win rate (62/100) would get nearly 13% ROI which even the very best players would really struggle to (or couldn't) sustain over a long term (I don't believe).
Puts into context the challenge faced by those playing the low buy-in games for anything other than pure entertainment. I certainly won't ever be going below the £3.30 games ever again!
Wow well I never knew that. Certainly seems stupid like that and looking at that the problem for beginners like myself is you either keep playing at the micro stakes and win now and again, or you step up a level and play say £3.30 which encounters better players and probably a less chance of winning which then equals more money lost. A catch 22 - that has certainly scrambled my head!!!!!
Comments
gary, the rake IS killing you. your graph has a very recognisable slope, and it is one of someone who is losing only to the rake. here is your graph showing pre-rake winnings / post rake losses in your favorite game: 60p DYMs.
as a comparision here is the same graph of someone who plays in the same games:
as you can see, they wouldnt be a winner even in a rake-free enviroment.
you're a winning player before rake in these games. you are losing only to the rake in your favorite game - and you are playing the highest raked games on the site. this obviously sucks.
so yah, take some time away to chill out. but when you come back, and if you can afford it, play games where the rake is less extortionate. 60p dyms are **** near unbeatable. you stand a chance of breaking even / having a free hobby in lower raked games.
and take jac up on his offer. he could charge a decent hourly rate for that type of assistance and regs would take him up on his offer.
have faith and keep learning and enjoying your poker.
good luck
seems like sky drains all liquidity out of that player pool, and it might be counter-productive if people like gary are self excluding as they feel like they cant improve in what is likely to be an unbeatable format [certainly for newer players] due to the unusually high rake.
ho hum, innit
pre rake its a lovely uphill incline. post rake it's the exact mirror image.
i'd expect a decent pre rake winner who isn't quite beating the games to the point where he is profiting post-rake to maybe break even after rake; not an ugly downward slope.
how may other players must feel like they are hitting a brick wall of playing decently well, being better than the players around them, yet keep losing money. as gary said it hardly inspires you to deposit more and play slightly higher limits [where he'd actually putting more £'s in rake into the site].
for shame.
It's really poor from Sky. I had a long debate with several sky representatives about this, on this forum a couple of years ago.
Everything is so static and set in stone here. 3 years later, nothing has changed. The majority of new players stand absolutely no chance.
As an aside, Gary I've seen you comment on taking add ons in freerolls before. If/when you start playing these again, do not use your bankroll on freeroll add ons, it's terrible value.
Great offer from Jac, I hope you take him up on it and things start to turn around.
gl.
gary's looks like this:
<
where the upslope represents £10.40p profit pre rake and the downslope represents £12 loss post rake.
slaughtering the new players with rake.
barmy
It seems a mite unfair that the players with the smallest bankrolls are paying the highest percentage rake on the site. If the 20% was applied across all levels the big players on the site would be off for greener pastures in a flash.
In my view a 10% rake at the lowest levels would be more than adequate and would give the new players some chance of making a profit thereby encouraging more newbies to join the site and hopefully move up to the higher levels.
So I went to scope and checked the pre rake profit of my stats and the results/difference is startling to say the least,
plus 131.00 pre rake and only 25.93 post erm wtf
4/5th of my winnings gone to the sky coffers....... get it sorted sky its extortionate
also if and when you come back to playing Gary you should be auto pming jac and taking him up on his offer if nothing else it will improve your confidence whilst playing, but something tells me you will get a lot more out of it than that
best of luck
regards
iah
Forum is dead now, it used to be really good but since sky split the categories into clinic/ cash/ tournament etc it can be 2 days between replies, unheard of a while ago.
All the good posters have left now, we are just left with really boring diarys ( one or 2 exceptions ) BBV is getting more traffic than the clinic.
I genuinely think that a lot of people are getting jacked off with the game, blame football and the weather at this time of year.
Only a very small percentage of players make money at this game but we all think" it could be me".
You don't get any good luck messages in the chatbox anymore, everyone is just aggro.
A lot of posters say they all play for fun, but I can guarantee they will all think "ffs how can he call with that" and it messes your nite up when we lose, its not fun,
Poker is just gambling with a slight edge but most tourneys are decided on the flip of a coin, go figure.
Dave,
Do you want an active forum? Abusing people on the forum isn't likely to get them to come back so am a bit confused about your intentions.
Given the weather and the world cup it is hardly surprising that activity is down for both the tables and the forum. What is your basis for a lot of people getting jacked off with the game? For the majority poker is a form of entertainment which they pay for, the may win sometimes but overall they know they will lose. Some are happy with this and feel they get value for money. Some may want to try and improve their game. So when there are other forms of entertainment (hot weather/world cup etc) its not surprising that numbers drop. Numbers drop on all sites, its not a sky specific thing.
Maybe its the games you play but I often see gl messages in chat at the start of a tournament, when players you know are moved to your table and often when deep you see people on the rail with gl messages. If it concerns you, have you tried saying GL all when your table opens? Its easy to blame the world for everything, its a lot harder to actually do something positive.
In the short term the edge can be small but over sensible sample sizes the edge can be significant so I have to disagree with your last statement. If your night is messed up by losing then maybe poker isn't the game for you or you should play lower stakes where losing doesn't effect you as much.
Anyway, gl at the tables Dave.
Sure you still get the non-regs going off on one when their aces get cracked, but that's always happened at every online poker site and will continue forever more. Humans don't like bad beats and a minority are always going to be numpties when they take on.
Can't disagree about the forum bit though, does seem a lot quieter this past year (not just summer/world cup season where you expect quiter). Not sure how that can be fixed though, probably only through an influx of new players?
Yep rake is the 'host' money that Sky (and all other sites) take on games.
ROI is Return on Investment - ie how much profit (or loss) you expect on average. I think good DYM players look to anywhere between 2% and 5% - ie for every £1 you pay, you expect to win back £1.02 - £1.05.
It doesn't look so much of a get rich quick thing when you stop to look at it like that
I think if my maths is right, you need to win 55 of every 100 games at £3.30 DYM or higher to breakeven. Winning 57 out of 100 gets you to 3.6% ROI.
By contrast at the lower buy-in games you'd need to win 62 / 100 games to get over 3% ROI...
At the higher value games that same win rate (62/100) would get nearly 13% ROI which even the very best players would really struggle to (or couldn't) sustain over a long term (I don't believe).
Puts into context the challenge faced by those playing the low buy-in games for anything other than pure entertainment. I certainly won't ever be going below the £3.30 games ever again!