Wow well I never knew that. Certainly seems stupid like that and looking at that the problem for beginners like myself is you either keep playing at the micro stakes and win now and again, or you step up a level and play say £3.30 which encounters better players and probably a less chance of winning which then equals more money lost. A catch 22 - that has certainly scrambled my head!!!!! Posted by CardiffAce
beat the £1 dym level, then move up to £2 then £3... simple
The only problem for me is I dont know who is any good on the tables so I just have to jump into the deep end. Maybe not a bad thing but I am goinf to start making notes so hopefully I will start to recognise the same players
The only problem for me is I dont know who is any good on the tables so I just have to jump into the deep end. Maybe not a bad thing but I am goinf to start making notes so hopefully I will start to recognise the same players Posted by CardiffAce
Just have a couple of days off from playing and watch some tables/players and take notes. It'll pay off in the long run
In Response to Re: GaryLaud's diary TEMP SELF SUSPENSION (as at Fri June 20th, 2014) : Just have a couple of days off from playing and watch some tables/players and take notes. It'll pay off in the long run Posted by VespaPX
After my bad losses the other evening, confidence in my game is at a low point at the moment, and I've only really had the frame of mind to play in the F/R's - Although I am delighted to report that due to my post's on the "Build a Bankroll" topic of the forum, RICHORFORD (Sky TV) has given me a seat into next Tuesday's 8pm Main event! 1st Apr 12pm F/R £20 Gtd - 212th Pos Entered the 12pm "F/R GTD £20" as I couldn't safely enter the 2pm as I had a meeting in town - played very lousy indeed and finished the tournament very quickly in just SEVEN MINS! eliminated after an ALL-IN with J-10 with my oppy turning over J-Q and hitting another Q on the board to finish with Q's. £2k B/Hunter FR - 42nd Place Ran better in this one and played realtively well. . APR 2ND 2pm F/R £20 Gtd - 131st Today I entered the 2pm F/R, and one thing I notice with these 10pt afair's is that they are of a turbo format and the blinds increase very quickly - I would play the deepstack but my balance is insufficient to enter and with my present form, I think I will probably end up non-cashing anyway.. Thought I played OK but I need to ensure I pick my spot's a bit better - I am still struggling with what to do when I open with a significant pair (EG K-K or Q-Q or A-A) only to find the flop draw's me dead and Im sitting on a PAIR with other's betting against me! Posted by GaryLaud
Sorry to hear that things aren't going well.
It sounds like you're suffering majorly with confidence tilt.
I went through a spell like that a couple of years ago, where I was scared to raise when anything as I was sure I'd get beaten. I'm not saying that you are definitely having this feeling, but it reminded me of my own struggles.
Taking a break will stop you feeling like that - until you go back to the table.
Personally, I found reading the book 'Kill Everyone' helped.
It's a poker book sequel to 'Kill Phil'.
I don't know if this would help you, but it massively helped me.
It's a couple of years old now, so some of it is out of date, but the general strategies have helped me in a big way.
Anyway, hope the next post I read is a happier story.
In Response to Re: GaryLaud's diary TEMP SELF SUSPENSION (as at Fri June 20th, 2014) : lol it is tough not to see it as a 'get rich quick' opportunity, particularly with all the stories of big/consistent winners in the game... in the first instance, like all gambling, it should be seen as buying entertainment and anything else is a bonus... and let's be fair, 60p for 20-30 minutes entertainment aint a bad price! Yep rake is the 'host' money that Sky (and all other sites) take on games. ROI is Return on Investment - ie how much profit (or loss) you expect on average. I think good DYM players look to anywhere between 2% and 5% - ie for every £1 you pay, you expect to win back £1.02 - £1.05. It doesn't look so much of a get rich quick thing when you stop to look at it like that I think if my maths is right, you need to win 55 of every 100 games at £3.30 DYM or higher to breakeven. Winning 57 out of 100 gets you to 3.6% ROI. By contrast at the lower buy-in games you'd need to win 62 / 100 games to get over 3% ROI... At the higher value games that same win rate (62/100) would get nearly 13% ROI which even the very best players would really struggle to (or couldn't) sustain over a long term (I don't believe). Puts into context the challenge faced by those playing the low buy-in games for anything other than pure entertainment. I certainly won't ever be going below the £3.30 games ever again! Posted by shakinaces
Couldn't agree more.
The rake is very steep on DYMs.
The DYMs are good for a starter as you've a decent chance of winning sometimes (or losing slower), but as a long-term money-maker, you need to be amazing at them to beat the rake.
And if you're that good, why not play Sit And Gos instead?
new players dont pay attention to rake, they see it as a cost where 'i pay 10p in rake, but if i win a 60p DYM i win £1"
unfortunatley rake has a massive impact on winrate and variance. and its at the micros where the rake is highest.
poker is a form of gambling. it's a great form of gambling as the skill element means that a winning streak can be an ego boost [i am better than these fools] and a losing one down to dumb luck [i am better than these lucky fools]. but any form of gambling has to offer the chance of riding that thrill of winning. at the micros this cant be happenening and i worry it will put people off if they are flicking £5 or £10 onto the site and giving poker a spin.
here's why:
in 60p DYMs an average player will expect to win 50% of games. however because poker has a big luck element he might expect to go on a mini heater every now and then. if mr 50% goes on a 100 game heater and wins 60% of his games at this level he make ZILCH. he breaks even. no rush there.
look at gary. he wins 54% of his 60p DYMs yet feels so fustrated at his lack of progress that he has self excluded.
lets say his true winrate is 54%. he is significantly better than his opponents, yet if he played 1000 games and won 54% of them, even though prerake he would be up £40 for an ROI of 8% , after sky's rake he will be £60 down with an roi of -10%.
even players who have improved to the point where they are significantly better than those around them lose BADLY to sky.
jac35 one of the sites best DYMers has an ITM rate of 59.9%.
johnconnor a DYM reg with 33000 games and who is also a professional coach in this format has an ITM rate of 57%.
yet newbies, in order to stand a hope of winning need to achieve a 61% win rate. even if they go on a heater they will break even at best.
---
i cant find one winning player at that level. the closest is a player who has a gold star, a 61% win rate at all levels and a 5.6roi total over 8000 games.
in other words he own the small stakes.
he played 800 x 60p dyms and has a 58.8% winrate in them. he crushes 60p DYM's
pre rake he would be up $114, post he is down $16.8.
newbs dont stand a chance of winning even if they heater. it cant be good if new players are hit by this wall of rake.
maybe this is why we have so many RNG / rig threads. players see they are better than the peeps around them yet are losing badly but dont undertand the effect the massive rake has on their results and how it means that even with POSITIVE variance they wont win.
if the rake where lower then new players could heater and win some money. they can experiance that thrill of seeing their balance rise. improving players stand a chance of getting to the point where they are breaking even over large samples and have essentially a free hobbie and will get games started. winning players will actually win some money [crazy idea, hope it catches on...] and will start seeding games higher up / move up to [where they will actually pay more rake].
it's grim at the moment, and cannot be sustainable, shurely?
It is possible to make money in DYM's, I recently made £125 over a sample of 500 with a ROI of about 5%. 80% of those were 1.15's, a few 11's, several 5.50's and a fair few 3.30's and 2.25's. The £125 would have been drastically higher however if i had stayed away from 30p's and 60p's, the only levels where I am a losing player. The point is if you want to see your BR increase through only DYM's, you gotta stay away from the 30p/60p's as they definitely are not beatable!
Not looked at my scope in detail in quite a while. One thing that sticks out like a sore thumb. Without rake profits of
£11,288. Less than half that when rake is taken into account.
Your points are valid Teddy. The site has yo make money and I have no problem with the 10% taken as rake from the games I play but I think it's nigh on impossible to beat Dyms with the rake at the micro stakes.
it's the new player that i am concerned with. if someone like gary is so dissillusioned with his lack of progress that he stops playing, how many other players must feel that poker is too hard, or get very fustrated by a percieved lack of progress.
it's all very well sky investing in a poker channel that coaches new players and promoting poker clinics / schools and 'how to beat...' guides - obviously they feel there is value in their player base improving their skill set. presumably it's because when peeps see their results improve / hit a run of form that they play more. sky get paid whoever wins right?
so why rake games to the point where they are unbeatable over any decent sample?
it doesnt affect me too much as i dont play here now, but it'd be sad to see games dry up here because people never get the bug at the micros.
Gary was playing the 60p dym's, I believe. treading water maybe, hanging around & getting good value for his money for his £20 or whatever.
Then he got talked into playing the £1 games, or so I believe. things took a turn for the worse, as they often can do when first moving up a level... yes, I know all about that, and he's gone busto.
yes, it's sad for Gary. was he rolled properly for the £1 level? I can't answer that for sure, as Gary never posted his b/r... something I suggested he should do, but it now seems to me that he wasn't.
Gary, if you enjoy the dym games, come back fresh when you are ready, is my advice.
deposit your £20 or whatever then decide what level to play.
playing the 60p games will be the safe bet & give you value for your money.
I would personally deposit £40 & play the £1 level, as they are beatable, but that takes practise and does not come easily, especially straight away.
It might be better for you to continue with the 60p games & just have some fun and continue learning the best way of playing them.
also it would pay you to watch some dym tables & take notes on players, especially at the next level you intend playing, ie; the £1 for you, which all helps when you play there.
anyway mate, I wish you all the best whatever you do,
Ian.
ps; just been reading back through a few of Gary's recent posts.
looks like depositing the £40 as I suggested might not be an option.
deposit £10-£20 play the 60p games, have fun.
If & when your bankroll increases by whatever means, then give the £1 another go.
The 55p regular speeds could be an alternative to 60p DYMs. There not really any easier or harder to beat pre rake. Easier to make actual profit though.
I noticed that in all the debate about 60p's, no one mentions the standard of the players in these games, which is surely the biggest reason why they should be avoided. Players will play any two and keep calling bottom pair and then might river 2 pair/trips, so it's just bingo. There's little satisfaction to winning one and it is mega annoying if you play for 45 mins and then get taken out by trash. Also the 30p turbo makes the 60p DYM bad value, because two 30p's wins the same 40p but you get 2 points instead of one.
If he wants to work his way up the stakes through DYM's then he needs to wait until he has at least £100 to deposit and then work his way up on the £1 games... until he can afford that he shouldnt play as it is a waste/risk of money.. if he just wants to play for fun then thats fine but people who play for fun dont normally take it to heart and self exclude. BR management is key at all levels
Comments
It'll pay off in the long run
unfortunatley rake has a massive impact on winrate and variance. and its at the micros where the rake is highest.
poker is a form of gambling. it's a great form of gambling as the skill element means that a winning streak can be an ego boost [i am better than these fools] and a losing one down to dumb luck [i am better than these lucky fools]. but any form of gambling has to offer the chance of riding that thrill of winning. at the micros this cant be happenening and i worry it will put people off if they are flicking £5 or £10 onto the site and giving poker a spin.
here's why:
in 60p DYMs an average player will expect to win 50% of games. however because poker has a big luck element he might expect to go on a mini heater every now and then. if mr 50% goes on a 100 game heater and wins 60% of his games at this level he make ZILCH. he breaks even. no rush there.
look at gary. he wins 54% of his 60p DYMs yet feels so fustrated at his lack of progress that he has self excluded.
lets say his true winrate is 54%. he is significantly better than his opponents, yet if he played 1000 games and won 54% of them, even though prerake he would be up £40 for an ROI of 8% , after sky's rake he will be £60 down with an roi of -10%.
even players who have improved to the point where they are significantly better than those around them lose BADLY to sky.
jac35 one of the sites best DYMers has an ITM rate of 59.9%.
johnconnor a DYM reg with 33000 games and who is also a professional coach in this format has an ITM rate of 57%.
yet newbies, in order to stand a hope of winning need to achieve a 61% win rate. even if they go on a heater they will break even at best.
---
i cant find one winning player at that level. the closest is a player who has a gold star, a 61% win rate at all levels and a 5.6roi total over 8000 games.
in other words he own the small stakes.
he played 800 x 60p dyms and has a 58.8% winrate in them. he crushes 60p DYM's
pre rake he would be up $114, post he is down $16.8.
newbs dont stand a chance of winning even if they heater. it cant be good if new players are hit by this wall of rake.
maybe this is why we have so many RNG / rig threads. players see they are better than the peeps around them yet are losing badly but dont undertand the effect the massive rake has on their results and how it means that even with POSITIVE variance they wont win.
if the rake where lower then new players could heater and win some money. they can experiance that thrill of seeing their balance rise. improving players stand a chance of getting to the point where they are breaking even over large samples and have essentially a free hobbie and will get games started. winning players will actually win some money [crazy idea, hope it catches on...] and will start seeding games higher up / move up to [where they will actually pay more rake].
it's grim at the moment, and cannot be sustainable, shurely?
it's all very well sky investing in a poker channel that coaches new players and promoting poker clinics / schools and 'how to beat...' guides - obviously they feel there is value in their player base improving their skill set. presumably it's because when peeps see their results improve / hit a run of form that they play more. sky get paid whoever wins right?
so why rake games to the point where they are unbeatable over any decent sample?
it doesnt affect me too much as i dont play here now, but it'd be sad to see games dry up here because people never get the bug at the micros.