I get where Ivan is coming from. As he said with the Vicky Coren example, she didn't like the idea of stars pushing casino games on their site and decided to gg her sponsorship with them.
I don't have anything against the games either, it's all a good bit of fun and I've had a little splash around on them too. I guess Ivan's point was around the whole 'responsible gambling' thing which all sites have to encourage. I think 'responsible gambling' was one of the reasons Sky said they weren't allowed to have auto rebuy/addon buttons due to some new UK regulation for example. Not saying Sky are breaking any rules btw, I'm sure they've checked it all out in advance.
Fwiw, "If i'm playing 1/2 £200 deep, and im having a bad sesh and lose 5 buy ins, i'm down £1k. On this playing 1/2 im down £100" is a pretty poor example.
Playing 10bb effective you could be by far the best player at the table and lose 5 'BIs' in the space of 20 mins easyyyyyy. It would take some serious bad luck to drop 5 BIs at 1 table where you're the best player if you're 100bb effective in 20 mins. It's apples and pairs. If you wanna punt off £20 then you can still sit at any regular 100NL with £20 or whatever (as many players regularly do).
In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby : THIS If I click the 'regular' filter on my cash game lobby I am still left with all the spin up tables. I have no intention of playing these so can I remove them from my lobby in the same way I can remove the heads up tables that I don't play? Posted by huuuuume
yeah am not happy about this
by all means highlight a couple, let the punters punt, but remove them from the 'regular' filter please
responsible gambling pah,what are sky gonna do are they gonna contact someone and say,hey,you lost alot o money today were gonna keep an eye on you so that you don't do it again and if you do we,ll suspend your account,i don't think so.
the only time i can remember it being done is when someone came on the forum and told all and sundry that they had a problem then sky banned them.
looking at the posts the only people pulling their faces about the lobby are the cash regs who seemed bothered about the lesser players/gamblers playing on the spin ups rather than donating to them
look, sky have said they will see how things go so let them worry about the lobby
edit:im gonna read the oatcake now cuz ive lost a fiver dont want sky on me case
@Phantom: A degen gambler is someone that loses money that they can't afford to lose. Well, at a bare minimum anyway. Obviously there's varying degrees of degeneracy!
Having the Spin Up tables highlighted at the top of the lobby is like invited an alcoholic to a party with an open bar. Yes, if you didn't invite them they might still get recklessly drunk but that doesn't mean you just go ahead and invite them anyway.
@ Stuarty: Yes, RR are just as bad, if not worse, but at least they're not highlighted at the top of the lobby.
I agree that just because there are degenerative gamblers in the world doesn't mean others should lose out on potential enjoyment. Hence I'm not advocating for these games to disappear - just that they not be highlighted at the top of the lobby any longer. But hey, that's just my opinion and ultimately Sky will decide when to remove them from the top of the lobby.
Just drop this whole degen thing, totally lame excuse to try and get the game removed.
Just played some .5/1 and it reminded me why i stopped playing it here since last year. The most boring nit infested games ever, i;m having to show bluff after bluff to try and squeeze some play out of them. Literally managed to get to showdown with around 4 hands in the past hour, twice they had AA. Theres literally nothing more boring or tilting than what i just went through.
Spin ups on the other hand are fun, quick and action filled. This is what i and many others want, we work, we have social lives we dont want to grind away at a lifeless table for 6 hours - leave them up, they're doing well for Sky whats the need to change? Look how much i raked during July, remove them and you'll lose tons of players like me as the games wont run anymore.
Ok - degen gamblers are in trouble the second they chose to log on to any gambling site.
No side of the arguement has any evidence that
1. spinups attract more or less degens than any other type of the game.
2. spinups are better/worse in terms of how quickly they would lose their bankroll vs other forms
There is an "assumption" that because they are highlighted at the top of the lobby they will attract more degens.
I have only played a total of 46 sessions of these so its early days but I have seen 1 player who I would class as a degen, playing a2c and reloading constantly for a 2 hour session. I have seen others who must be losing players but they stand after a small number of BIs so I assume they are not "degens" and have some self control and bankroll diiscipline.
I think Stoke is spot on in that most regs who whine about spinups dont like the fact that some weaker players are playing them instead of regular games. I havent seen anyone who is not a winning reg complain about them.
I accept in defending them I have my own self interest too, I like playing games which are not full of sharks and I have a skill edge over most of the table most of the time. There is skill involved in these even with the 10BB stack, and when a few players do spinup it can quickly become a very deep stacked game which certainly differentiates them from capped games.
Finding a skill edge and playing for profit is why I play low stakes 6max SNGs when they are running. I also like challenging myself and playing with a pool of players who are tough to beat but play in a friendly way with a great atmosphere at the tables, which is why I like PLO8 dyms too.
Fwiw I dont think they should always be highhlighted, but equally we are in the low volume part of the year so to enable them to become established I would like to see them highlighted for a bit longer.
Spins up level of play is akin to online Poker back in 2006 - i just dont get why people would whinge - it's fantastic, it's brought fun back into a dwindling product. I say well done Sky, for doing somthinng tad different, now stick to ur guns and keep it for a few more months and see how it pans out...
In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby : yeah am not happy about this by all means highlight a couple, let the punters punt, but remove them from the 'regular' filter please Posted by sikas
I agree with those of you who have mentioned this - I will try to sort this out now.
*Update* - unfortunately the 'regular' filter refers to the type of poker being played, IE NL, PL, Heads-Up. Because the Spin Up tables are NL they are appearing in all filters relating to NL. I don't think this should be the case and agree that the filters need some work. I am going to raise this to see if we can get something sorted.
So Sky offer a game with no skill and huge rake and some people defend it. You couldnt make it up. We love poker because there is skill in the game dont let sites destroy this. The only silver lining is I get to read threads like this and have a good laugh. Posted by ajs4385
No skill? PMSL. The game is much more skillfull then sitting with 100BB's waiting for AA. When play gets deep on the spin ups it's great fun.
I love how everyone slamming it hasnt even played it. Unfortunatly this thread is pointless is all the nitty regs are active on the forum, whilst all the reccy players who play it arnt on here.
So Sky offer a game with no skill and huge rake and some people defend it. You couldnt make it up. We love poker because there is skill in the game dont let sites destroy this. The only silver lining is I get to read threads like this and have a good laugh. Posted by ajs4385
Set yourself a goal ajs. Write just one positive post ever. The we can all have a good laugh and says that you're not so miserable after all.
Just in case they remove the highlighting let's keep this thread at the top of the forum board. This discussion has definitely made me consider jumping in to see what it's all about, and maybe a cash game without these nitty regs would be good fun. Or maybe some will come out to play and open up a little?
@ajs no skill? It isnt Russian Roulette even on a flat table with everyone on 10BB you can have a skill edge. It doesnt take long for several players to be 50BB+ and higher so you certainly need your wits about you post flop too.
@alex "all the reccy players who play it arnt on here" cough!
+1 to everything alex has said. and wp for sticking up for the spin up tables.
I bet most people like them or arent bothered about them but the small percent of people who dont like them will make a lot of noise to get them removed, I agree with is that they shouldnt be in the regular filter but theyre sorting that out now anyway.
As for accusing them of promoting gambling well ya can only laugh haha. Keep them highlighted at the top for longer as they are a new game and still most people wont of played them
Just drop this whole degen thing, totally lame excuse to try and get the game removed. Just played some .5/1 and it reminded me why i stopped playing it here since last year. The most boring nit infested games ever, i;m having to show bluff after bluff to try and squeeze some play out of them. Literally managed to get to showdown with around 4 hands in the past hour, twice they had AA. Theres literally nothing more boring or tilting than what i just went through. Spin ups on the other hand are fun, quick and action filled. This is what i and many others want, we work, we have social lives we dont want to grind away at a lifeless table for 6 hours - leave them up, they're doing well for Sky whats the need to change? Look how much i raked during July, remove them and you'll lose tons of players like me as the games wont run anymore. Posted by alex1229
Just drop this whole "trying to get the game removed" because not once have I said I want to remove it; Just that they no longer be highlighted at the top of lobby.
I agree with you about .5/1 games btw. I've been playing them for the last week only because I need to reach Priority and they are definitely very boring/nitty! I doubt I'm even a winner in these games because whilst I win a ton of money uncontested I invariably try and do something stupid. But anyway, that's why normally I play 90% Omaha and 10% the Sunday tournaments on here. Therefore, these games have really no effect on my games at all, so you cannot say that it is a self-motivating suggestion. I don't know if you do or not, but do you play Omaha? It's definitely the game to play if you don't like how nitty NL cash has become - and probably more profitable than Spin Up games anyway.
@ Phantom: True, although not necessarily. There are lots of winning poker players that are degens to varying extents in other forms of gambling. Stu Ungar is arguably simultaneously the greatest poker player and biggest degen of all time. I guess it's not just about degening either - any player can go on tilt for a while. You might come on, be playing your regular low stakes games and then "go on tilt" - the Spin Up tables are easy to find and you might end up burning through £100. I know when I was building up my roll at 20nl I could quite easily see myself jumping into 1/2 with £20 if I had gone on tilt and proceeding to blow £100 very quickly. Whereas going on tilt at 20nl, I would never be able to do that much damage. I could go higher stakes - but even then, it would only be up to 50nl.
I agree with you that I'm just putting out hypothesis out there with no actual stats to back it up, so maybe I am wrong. Only Sky are likely to know the figures. For now, I will concede to withdraw my suggestion.
@ Alex: I disagree. It was the easy option of something new for Sky to create because it probably didn't require much coding (just got to set min BI to 10bb) Yes, it's a bit of fun but not proper poker. I will concede that 100nl on sky often isn't proper poker either but then why not create a cash game with ante's? That would certainly help get rid of the nittiness and make 100bb deep actually fun again. People couldn't just nit it up anymore because you'd be winning so much more money by regularly stealing the blinds.
Whilst Spin up games are fun and profitable right now, imagine when it becomes Reg invested because the other games have died out? People have been stubborn so far - it's human nature - as well as not wanting to learn something new. But when you have 5 people that know what they're doing and only 1 rec at a table of 6 it will be impossible to profit.
So Sky offer a game with no skill and huge rake and some people defend it. You couldnt make it up. We love poker because there is skill in the game dont let sites destroy this. The only silver lining is I get to read threads like this and have a good laugh. Posted by ajs4385
This is just hilarious! So what you are saying is all the top players who grind any form of the game where stack sizes are around the 10bb mark are just punting without implementing any strategy?
In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby : Just drop this whole "trying to get the game removed" because not once have I said I want to remove it; Just that they no longer be highlighted at the top of lobby. I agree with you about .5/1 games btw. I've been playing them for the last week only because I need to reach Priority and they are definitely very boring/nitty! I doubt I'm even a winner in these games because whilst I win a ton of money uncontested I invariably try and do something stupid. But anyway, that's why normally I play 90% Omaha and 10% the Sunday tournaments on here. Therefore, these games have really no effect on my games at all, so you cannot say that it is a self-motivating suggestion. I don't know if you do or not, but do you play Omaha? It's definitely the game to play if you don't like how nitty NL cash has become - and probably more profitable than Spin Up games anyway. @ Phantom: True, although not necessarily. There are lots of winning poker players that are degens to varying extents in other forms of gambling. Stu Ungar is arguably simultaneously the greatest poker player and biggest degen of all time. I guess it's not just about degening either - any player can go on tilt for a while. You might come on, be playing your regular low stakes games and then "go on tilt" - the Spin Up tables are easy to find and you might end up burning through £100. I know when I was building up my roll at 20nl I could quite easily see myself jumping into 1/2 with £20 if I had gone on tilt and proceeding to blow £100 very quickly. Whereas going on tilt at 20nl, I would never be able to do that much damage. I could go higher stakes - but even then, it would only be up to 50nl. I agree with you that I'm just putting out hypothesis out there with no actual stats to back it up, so maybe I am wrong. Only Sky are likely to know the figures. For now, I will concede to withdraw my suggestion. @ Alex: I disagree. It was the easy option of something new for Sky to create because it probably didn't require much coding (just got to set min BI to 10bb) Yes, it's a bit of fun but not proper poker. I will concede that 100nl on sky often isn't proper poker either but then why not create a cash game with ante's? That would certainly help get rid of the nittiness and make 100bb deep actually fun again. People couldn't just nit it up anymore because you'd be winning so much more money by regularly stealing the blinds. Whilst Spin up games are fun and profitable right now, imagine when it becomes Reg invested because the other games have died out? People have been stubborn so far - it's human nature - as well as not wanting to learn something new. But when you have 5 people that know what they're doing and only 1 rec at a table of 6 it will be impossible to profit. Posted by F_Ivanovic
- Omaha, i agree it's fun. Played a fair bit of 5 card on stars - i enjoy it but not good enough to churn a profit.
- Yeah it was a simple game - but i think they had the right idea behind it (fun, quick, not nit friendly) - i cant really comment on other ideas such as antes because all that stuff is more complex and would require changes in the software
- The game almost plays as though antes exist, you lose 15% of your stack every round due to the BB/SB so this requires you to play, nit's could never be successful players in it - i can only assume thats why they're kicking off, they're only whinging because it's taken the recreational players from their games, and they're now playing something more fun suited to their style.
Comments
Surely bankroll management and self control apply to all forms of the game.
It's easy to make a case that spinups are better or worse than "normal" games based on assumptions and made up scenarios.
A pure gambler with little poker skill or someone on tilt can lose money quickly on a spinup or on a mastercash table.
Better not to demonise spinups just yet. Give them time and let sky make the decision based on actual facts.
You couldnt make it up.
We love poker because there is skill in the game dont let sites destroy this.
The only silver lining is I get to read threads like this and have a good laugh.
Has anyone mentioned the £2.20 @2.20 deepstack yet.
All the best.
Rainman397
I bet most people like them or arent bothered about them but the small percent of people who dont like them will make a lot of noise to get them removed, I agree with is that they shouldnt be in the regular filter but theyre sorting that out now anyway.
As for accusing them of promoting gambling well ya can only laugh haha. Keep them highlighted at the top for longer as they are a new game and still most people wont of played them
@ Alex: I disagree. It was the easy option of something new for Sky to create because it probably didn't require much coding (just got to set min BI to 10bb) Yes, it's a bit of fun but not proper poker. I will concede that 100nl on sky often isn't proper poker either but then why not create a cash game with ante's? That would certainly help get rid of the nittiness and make 100bb deep actually fun again. People couldn't just nit it up anymore because you'd be winning so much more money by regularly stealing the blinds.