The flop/turn seems a bit backwards to me, like if I HAD to raise one or the other it'd definitely be the flop. I think the flop is a decent spot for us to raise, certainly not a mandatory raise though. However if we do flat, I don't think we should raise when the board pairs.
We're just really over-repping our hand imo and making it difficult for us to get called by worse... like I wouldn't be surprised if most fold all their OPs facing this line. I think we can only really get called by 7x on the turn which is only gonna be a small part of their range.
did you not consider leading the flop?? that is definitely my preferred move in that spot, I dont think you give away your strength, as you could have a set, 2 pair, different straights, even one pair and a draw etc. also by leading out you give your opponents a chance to rerarise you which would be great news for you.
As played on the turn its a really tough spot about what the best line is, once its paired id probably flat call, although there defintely are merrits to raising.
Would you have been snap calling a jam over the top then?
did you not consider leading the flop?? that is definitely my preferred move in that spot, I dont think you give away your strength, as you could have a set, 2 pair, different straights, even one pair and a draw etc. also by leading out you give your opponents a chance to rerarise you which would be great news for you. As played on the turn its a really tough spot about what the best line is, once its paired id probably flat call, although there defintely are merrits to raising. Would you have been snap calling a jam over the top then? Posted by jordz16
Hi Jordz, personally I wouldn't lead the flop here, in this spot, being first to act with 4 opponents behind me. Although each to their own.
I just don't see the need to. I much prefer checking, and then seeing what happens with the other 4 guys. Yes it is possible everyone checks, which would be a shame, but I don't see that as likely. So I am just deferring my flop action until after someone else bets. Regarding, what I do if someone comes over the top of my turn 3bet. As I alluded too in my original assessment of this hand, I would almost certainly fold. (Although depends upon the opponent to some degree)
Yeah I'm definitely coming along preflop with 89s The flop/turn seems a bit backwards to me, like if I HAD to raise one or the other it'd definitely be the flop. I think the flop is a decent spot for us to raise, certainly not a mandatory raise though. However if we do flat, I don't think we should raise when the board pairs. We're just really over-repping our hand imo and making it difficult for us to get called by worse... like I wouldn't be surprised if most fold all their OPs facing this line. I think we can only really get called by 7x on the turn which is only gonna be a small part of their range. Posted by Lambert180
Hi Paul, thanks for the feedback.
My reason for just check/calling on the flop, was simply to keep players in and "build" the pot. It would have been such a shame if I check/raised the flop and they both folded, as a check raise on this flop looks very strong.
With the BB calling too, this significantly increased the pot size. I then went for the check/raise option on the turn, to protect my hand and/or get value from a 7.
Fairly standard hand, my thought processes were as follows:
PRE FLOP:
1) I think this is a standard play at this blind level. If, he 5bet, I'd consider all options. Whether I 6bet, called the 5bet or folded would have been opponent specific.
As this is a fairly basic encounter, I thought I'd details some of my stats. (This is from Holdem Manager on my PokerStars account for 9 handed tables over 125K hands.
VPIP: 25.3%
PFR: 20.5%
3bet: 9.75%
It's fair to say, that this is probably slightly more aggressive than standard for full ring games. Anyone who I have helped/coached that wishes to adopt a similar style to myself, I have suggested that the most important factor, is that they don't call too much. So I am looking for a maximum of 5% difference between VPIP and PFR.
I have no capability of recording Sky stats, but on Sky, with 6 handed tables, my stats would probably be something like:
VPIP: 35%
PFR: 30%
3bet: 12%
So clearly when discussing hands, particularly, opening ranges, people who are in the 15/10/5 camp will have way differing views. (Hence contention over the 1st hand, K3o open, for example)
Also, paradoxically, as a general rule (bit of a sweeping statement), but the more aggressive the players are, the more likely they are, to "slow play" big hands post flop (even risk getting outdrawn.) Conversely, tighter players, are more likely to play their monsters aggressively.
As I said it's a generic statement, but worth looking out for this pattern.
I can see a rationale for it - make it look a bit polarised, although not sure if folding therafter then works guess it depends on the table dynamic, and i'm assuming there might have been someone involved who had been calling light ..
Really good read and fair play for putting these hands up for debate. If you are taking suggestions maybe don't reveal the outcome until after the replies. A lot of good players saying after the fact what you should or could have done . In play with your reads I think you should leave it open to debate where you have a choice to make be it flop , turn or river. In general people will always skew their thinking to the right outcome ( or most probable outcome ( pokerstove ) when results are known . Not doubting the vast knowledge of the replies but when the outcome is known players answers are not what would happen in play. Just my take. Flame away. Pat Posted by day4eire76
Cheers Pat.
Yeh, that's probably not a bad idea, for some of the hands anyway. It may however drag out the process even more. Probably will be two months before it's finished, but I guess that's not a problem.
Following on from Pat's suggestion, I am going to do the next hand piece meal.
To give us a head start, I'll start it off now.
I'll allow 12 hours from now (3PM Saturday) for people to respond regarding their suggested Post flop play, then I will divulge the action I took. This hand involves Neil Channing, so no need to describe, player style etc. Although there is also one other player involved, who was fairly solid.
UKPC2016 SIXTH HAND:
==================
Blinds 150/300 Antie 25
Chip Count: 87K
Starting Hand:6s7s
UTG+1 raises to 700, UTG+2 calls, CutOff calls (Neil Channing), I call in the SB, BB calls.
Flop: ThTc7h
I check, BB checks, UTG+1 raises to 1.5K, UTG+2 folds, Neil calls.
Good suggestion about not revealing the hand outcome straight away. This crossed my mind the other day, it can definitely sway opinion a tad more towards being overly results orientated and result in slightly less objective feedback when the outcome is know right away. Obviously this isn't as important for standard spots.
Regarding the AK hand... I probably flat the 3bet for pot control in this spot (depending on the opponents stack obviously). I think this is just down to styles though as you said you are 'probably a bit more aggressive than standard'. I like to be active but in a small ball fashion when the stack sizes allow it. I feel when I am playing my best I try to give my opponents more rope to hang themselves or bleed off chips by flatting and playing more postflop. Again if I am playing decent I would be hoping to get more action post flop from weaker aces or maybe get a lot of pocket pairs off their hands post flop even if the AK doesn't connect.
Again I am not suggesting for a second that the 4bet was in some way wrong I think this is just down to styles and there are pros and cons both ways.
Looking forward to the upcoming hands and once again, great thread!
Following on from Pat's suggestion, I am going to do the next hand piece meal. To give us a head start, I'll start it off now. I'll allow 12 hours from now (3PM Saturday) for people to respond regarding their suggested Post flop play, then I will divulge the action I took. This hand involves Neil Channing, so no need to describe, player style etc. Although there is also one other player involved, who was fairly solid. UKPC2016 SIXTH HAND: ================== Blinds 150/300 Antie 25 Chip Count: 87K Starting Hand: 6s7s UTG+1 raises to 700, UTG+2 calls, CutOff calls (Neil Channing), I call in the SB, BB calls. Flop: ThTc7h I check, BB checks, UTG+1 raises to 1.5K, UTG+2 folds, Neil calls. ON ME: ??????? So what do we do here? Posted by StayOrGo
Ok, I'll have a go. Standard call pre. I don't think we can call flop bet with the value of our hand because even if we are ahead against at least two opponents (3 if BB calls) we are not going to know where we are on turn and river. We also have no real way to improve. We can't make two pair, a flush or straight and no garentee a 7 wins the hand either so for the standard play is to fold.
If we raise our 7 we are hoping to take the pot then and there but how often do we think that will get through? If we get called then How do we feel about shutting down? Problem there is we can be called quite wide and either end up folding best hand or getting in to trouble against a strong hand. We just don't know, I feel we would be guessing far too much.
I think fold flop, we called to try and hit something with a lot more equity than just bottom or on a paired board multi way with straight and FD on it.
Following on from Pat's suggestion, I am going to do the next hand piece meal. To give us a head start, I'll start it off now. I'll allow 12 hours from now (3PM Saturday) for people to respond regarding their suggested Post flop play, then I will divulge the action I took. This hand involves Neil Channing, so no need to describe, player style etc. Although there is also one other player involved, who was fairly solid. UKPC2016 SIXTH HAND: ================== Blinds 150/300 Antie 25 Chip Count: 87K Starting Hand: 6s7s UTG+1 raises to 700, UTG+2 calls, CutOff calls (Neil Channing), I call in the SB, BB calls. Flop: ThTc7h I check, BB checks, UTG+1 raises to 1.5K, UTG+2 folds, Neil calls. ON ME: ??????? So what do we do here? Posted by StayOrGo
I feel like we should probably just fold. I don't imagine the preflop raiser is going to cbet 5 way without any kind of equity and if we imagine a lot of his range from opening from early position is going to be weighted to stronger holdings I think he could have a fair amount of overpairs. Neil can have a wider range when he calls here, from Tx to 7x to straight draws and flush draws and will probably be willing to make some moves on certain runouts. We just have a marginal holding that can't improve or stand much (if any) heat on future streets. Also being out of position makes it even more difficult
Initially it certainly looks like a standard fold.
On deeper inspection there is room for a play here. The original raiser definitely doesnt need to have a T here and I feel is weighted to pocket pairs as the cbet into so many people with a missed Ax wouldn't be the best. I would imagine neil will balance his range here and be flatting or floating with open enders, FD's, pairs and also 10's. So I would wouldn't say either player has to have a T here. The original raiser may check the flop with a T or 77 or TT for obvious reasons and if either does have the T then I would feel it is more likely to be Neil. A reraise here would look strong as it is multiway and several players have seen the flop. You still have the BB to act but I guess you will find out soon enough if he has a T.
The reraise would look strong but I think it would have to be followed up on the turn by firing another barrel as the hands we would be trying to fold are probably going to be pretty strong hands/ pocket pairs. By reraising the flop and firing the turn I think it would be difficult for anything but a T or pocket TT/77 to continue. Pocket 7's or T's are less likely as obviously it would be the case cards.
I just have a feeling you are not folding here.
It would certainly be creative to do anything here but it would look like a very strong hand if you do make a play, your holdings are also not cards that you would be likely to lose more than the reraise and turn barrel with and get into trouble for stacks with.
Just trying to give another angle on it as the standard line seems to be instafold.
Even if it goes wrong and you lose a small amount, it will help balance your reraising range in similar spots and may result in you getting paid off big if you do nail one.
Following on from Pat's suggestion, I am going to do the next hand piece meal. To give us a head start, I'll start it off now. I'll allow 12 hours from now (3PM Saturday) for people to respond regarding their suggested Post flop play, then I will divulge the action I took. This hand involves Neil Channing, so no need to describe, player style etc. Although there is also one other player involved, who was fairly solid. UKPC2016 SIXTH HAND: ================== Blinds 150/300 Antie 25 Chip Count: 87K Starting Hand: 6s7s UTG+1 raises to 700, UTG+2 calls, CutOff calls (Neil Channing), I call in the SB, BB calls. Flop: ThTc7h I check, BB checks, UTG+1 raises to 1.5K, UTG+2 folds, Neil calls. ON ME: ??????? So what do we do here? Posted by StayOrGo
personally id just fold, my guess is you are ahead a decent chunk of the time, but there are so few good turn cards for you that i think its best to pass, especially being out of position too.
I also agree that its best not to reveal the outcome straight away as it leaves more room for discussion.
Comments
The flop/turn seems a bit backwards to me, like if I HAD to raise one or the other it'd definitely be the flop. I think the flop is a decent spot for us to raise, certainly not a mandatory raise though. However if we do flat, I don't think we should raise when the board pairs.
I just don't see the need to. I much prefer checking, and then seeing what happens with the other 4 guys. Yes it is possible everyone checks, which would be a shame, but I don't see that as likely. So I am just deferring my flop action until after someone else bets. Regarding, what I do if someone comes over the top of my turn 3bet. As I alluded too in my original assessment of this hand, I would almost certainly fold. (Although depends upon the opponent to some degree)
Cheers,
G
pre - tick
flop - tick
turn - concept - tick
turn - amount - interesting
I can see a rationale for it - make it look a bit polarised, although not sure if folding therafter then works
guess it depends on the table dynamic, and i'm assuming there might have been someone involved who had been calling light ..
Regarding the AK hand... I probably flat the 3bet for pot control in this spot (depending on the opponents stack obviously). I think this is just down to styles though as you said you are 'probably a bit more aggressive than standard'. I like to be active but in a small ball fashion when the stack sizes allow it. I feel when I am playing my best I try to give my opponents more rope to hang themselves or bleed off chips by flatting and playing more postflop. Again if I am playing decent I would be hoping to get more action post flop from weaker aces or maybe get a lot of pocket pairs off their hands post flop even if the AK doesn't connect.
Again I am not suggesting for a second that the 4bet was in some way wrong I think this is just down to styles and there are pros and cons both ways.
Looking forward to the upcoming hands and once again, great thread!
Might just be the best thread ever, & definitely TOTW.
Great stuff Graham, excellent in every way.
On deeper inspection there is room for a play here. The original raiser definitely doesnt need to have a T here and I feel is weighted to pocket pairs as the cbet into so many people with a missed Ax wouldn't be the best. I would imagine neil will balance his range here and be flatting or floating with open enders, FD's, pairs and also 10's. So I would wouldn't say either player has to have a T here. The original raiser may check the flop with a T or 77 or TT for obvious reasons and if either does have the T then I would feel it is more likely to be Neil. A reraise here would look strong as it is multiway and several players have seen the flop. You still have the BB to act but I guess you will find out soon enough if he has a T.
The reraise would look strong but I think it would have to be followed up on the turn by firing another barrel as the hands we would be trying to fold are probably going to be pretty strong hands/ pocket pairs. By reraising the flop and firing the turn I think it would be difficult for anything but a T or pocket TT/77 to continue. Pocket 7's or T's are less likely as obviously it would be the case cards.
I just have a feeling you are not folding here.
It would certainly be creative to do anything here but it would look like a very strong hand if you do make a play, your holdings are also not cards that you would be likely to lose more than the reraise and turn barrel with and get into trouble for stacks with.
Just trying to give another angle on it as the standard line seems to be instafold.
Even if it goes wrong and you lose a small amount, it will help balance your reraising range in similar spots and may result in you getting paid off big if you do nail one.