Some of the answers given are really helpful for me its another level of thinking and it makes a lot more sense now when people were asking what was I trying to achieve by doing things in certain situations next hand please
Taking notes about hands during live tourneys is something I have heard of plenty (Gus Hansen with his dictaphone springs to mind) but something I have never actually done.
Brilliant idea for game development which I will take on board for future live games.
I think the process of doing this will probably help you rationale any plays you make good or bad and move on to the subsequent hands with a more clear mind.
Looking forward to seeing your subsequent hands and thoughts behind your play, again thanks for sharing!
Hopefully everyone discussing/reading the analysis can take something from it.
For ease of finding the actual hands on the thread, I will post them in RED. I will also start each post with UKPC2016FIRST HAND:, UKPC2016SECOND HAND: and so on.
I have come to realise that doing three a night, is a bit ambitious, so I will just do one a night. This also allows some time for feedback and contemplation.
Also, this first hand, had much to discuss, most of the hands are not as "SEXY", however I will post them all, to give people an idea of the overall "journey." Also, what I consider to be "Standard Plays" may be useful to some people and also may not be considred "Standard" by others. So I will send THEGOOD, THE BAD, THE UGLY and the darn right BORING :=) and we can contemplate the lot! :=)
What a great thread - well done Graham, thank you. Note especially the comment by Marc - the Ali Mallu factor. Ali could have, literally, ANYTHING here . Posted by Tikay10
Thanks TK, it's good to give something back to Sky Players.
Gary, my son (Limp2Lose), and I remember learning SO MUCH from you back in the SkyPoker TV days.
In 2011, we changed from losing players to becoming winning players, and a lot of the credit for that should go to the advice you and your colleagues gave on Sky Poker TV.
In fact, I remember you being SO adamant, that Limping was generally a bad thing, that I suggested my son's username should be "LIMP2LOSE" to re-inforce your "message"
The way I see it. Sky Poker and all the Analysts enabled us to get our games to a "winning" standard, so we will always appreciate the help received. Giving a bit back to other Sky players is the least I can do.
1) K3o is quite a wide open from the CUTOFF, but I hadn't played many hands, so my image at this stage was fairly tight, and I decided to get involved.
Flop: A94 (two-tone)
POST FLOP:
1) I led out, 550, half expecting a call, as my opponent had often called pre, and would often float the flop in position (His VPIP (Voluntarily Put into Pot) pre flop stat was around 40-50%)
Turn: offsuit Jack (ie No Flush hit)
POST TURN:
2) I led out again, this time making it 1.5K.
I had observed, a "float to take" philosophy in my opponent from previous hands. He would often call the flop in position, and then bet to take it down if checked to on the turn.
3) I always knew that this was probably going to require a double barrell, and was fairly confident that, with this particular opponent, there were more NONAx hands, in his range, than Ax Hands. Plenty of 9x hands that would likely fold, and a decent sized bet, should also price him out of most draws.
Bullfight critics ranked in rows Crowd the enormous Plaza full: But he is the only one who knows- The man who fights the bull. Would be a great read, get em posted mate! Posted by ShaunyT
Hi Shauny.
Is this your own literary prowess or a quote from another? Great if yours, if not, who is the poet/writer/philosopher?
Either way, very good. :=)
My response:
I'm ready for the critics, bring them here, I will not fight them, but hold them dear.
I'll recollect my battle with the bull, the way I saw it, overall.
The critics may help me, in battles new, I respect the advice, of quite a few. :=)
Hi Graham, Really intresting read on how the hand played out. I'm guessing you had no reads so early in the tourney on the villian but would this hand played out the same against a winning reg in a ME on Sky? Posted by Snuffer
Hi Snuffer, in answer to your question.
What I would do against a Sky Reg, would depend on, which Sky Reg it was.
Some good Sky players, could actually make a move on me in this spot (due to Meta game), where as others, it's always JJ.
I will not name who's/who for obvious reasons.
So I had to make a decision, with a lack of understanding of both ability and style of my opponent, which is why it ended up being a bit of a punt.
I simply didn't have enough information on my opponent, to know if my decision was +EV or not.
Had you been taking a note of everyone's VPIP up to the tournament to that point? That's a great idea that anyway
I think pre-flop is very bad - particularly with your read. K3o is just really a bad hand that you do not want to be playing with OOP. There are lots of hands we can be raising here if we want to get more involved - all the suited connectors for instance. Even raising some garbage suited hand (like T3s for instance) would probably* be better than opening with K3o. If BTN was tight, then maybe opening it becomes fine - but with his VPIP, it's definitely not.
Anyway, I suspect you probably already know the open was bad Most of us are guilty of making bad opens, particularly live after we've been card dead for a while. I think if you really wanted to play the hand I'd probably make a larger raise sizing (3-3.5x) to hopefully get rid of BTN.
Flop - standard. Turn - I think this is an OK move to make with your reads and your image. I would probably be intending to fire out a large bet on certain rivers though since I think just betting turn alone is probably not going to be enough +ev.
Had you been taking a note of everyone's VPIP up to the tournament to that point? That's a great idea that anyway I think pre-flop is very bad - particularly with your read. K3o is just really a bad hand that you do not want to be playing with OOP. There are lots of hands we can be raising here if we want to get more involved - all the suited connectors for instance. Even raising some garbage suited hand (like T3s for instance) would probably* be better than opening with K3o. If BTN was tight, then maybe opening it becomes fine - but with his VPIP, it's definitely not. Anyway, I suspect you probably already know the open was bad Most of us are guilty of making bad opens, particularly live after we've been card dead for a while. I think if you really wanted to play the hand I'd probably make a larger raise sizing (3-3.5x) to hopefully get rid of BTN. Flop - standard. Turn - I think this is an OK move to make with your reads and your image. I would probably be intending to fire out a large bet on certain rivers though since I think just betting turn alone is probably not going to be enough +ev. Posted by F_Ivanovic
Hi Ivan, thanks for the response.
I take a mental note of approx VPIP/PFR/3BET/C-BET/FOLD TO C-BET stats of each of my opponents, especially early on in tournaments. I watch every hand (whether I'm involved in it or not) vigorously to start with.
I'm actually completely happy with how I played this hand (rightly or wrongly, hopefully not being results orientated) :=)
So regarding your comment below in BLUE:
"Anyway, I suspect you probably already know the open was bad Most of us are guilty of making bad opens, particularly live after we've been card dead for a while. I think if you really wanted to play the hand I'd probably make a larger raise sizing (3-3.5x) to hopefully get rid of BTN."
Pre flop, if I open, I make it 375 with any hand.
I generally don't vary raise sizes too much.
This is so that no information regarding my hand type/strength can be gauged (from the bet size, atleast), as it would be the same for all my range.
Also regarding being out of position, I'm only OOP against a button call. I'm in position against either the SB or BB if they call.
I think just folding K3o pre is the better option, especially if you think the BTN has a VPIP of 40-50% cos he's just gonna call a lot and we're gonna be OOP with a hand that plays really terribly postflop.
As played, if you think he's floating loads and folding lots of turns then i guess you have to play it this way, but readless I think just a cbet and give up might be better.
What was your plan on different rivers if he'd called the turn?
I think just folding K3o pre is the better option, especially if you think the BTN has a VPIP of 40-50% cos he's just gonna call a lot and we're gonna be OOP with a hand that plays really terribly postflop. As played, if you think he's floating loads and folding lots of turns then i guess you have to play it this way, but readless I think just a cbet and give up might be better. What was your plan on different rivers if he'd called the turn? Posted by Lambert180
Hi Paul, my intention, based upon my experience of watching the player for an hour and a half, was to fire two barrells (I decided this pretty much when I made the flop bet). I would give up on nearly all rivers.
One advantage of playing a wide range like this (with the same raise size), is that your opening range is balanced with monstors, premiums, marginals, suited connectors/one gappers, low pocket pairs, rag Kings and rag Aces, so it makes it very hard for people to "range you" just from one bet that is always the same amount.
Most people will not like how I played this, but I am happy with it for reasons I have stated. (It came off OK this time, but don't worry, I make plenty of plays that go wrong later, so plenty of chance to see the down side of this type of thing)
People can then decide for themselves overall, if they feel it's +EV or -EV.
Although as I previously alluded to, it's impossible to convey subliminal reads in this thread.
The feedback is all good. However, I won't forcibly try to defend every play I make, I am simply explaining my thought processes, and people can make their own judgements and are welcome to their own opinions.
There are a few hands further down the line, were I genuinely just didn't know what the best play was, on these particular hands, I am very much up for constructive criticsm.
its the image i think your trying to keep here. you said you have been very tight so he had to give you credit for the ace imo. def after you double barrell.
if he had the ace he prob raises flop anyway so hero hand is irrelavant.
i like this play and its something lots overdo or are frightened todo as OOP.
I would echo what others have said generally. I would rather be raising with hands that play better post flop here, suited connectors, suited 1/2 gapers, and even come non suited connectors. With the BB's high VPIP I think this is even more important.
I can see what your thinking was and in the 'playing the opponent not the cards' sense, if you went with an informed plan that you could fire 2 bullets post flop and get him off then all good. I just would rather be doing it with hands that might nail the flop and provide a solid back up as obviously it will be hard to figure out how you stand in the hand on the vast majority of flops, even kxx.
As you hinted at, you were in the best position to judge the player etc considering you had been playing with him for a while.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SECOND HAND NOW REVEALED : Pre flop, if I open, I make it 375 with any hand. I generally don't vary raise sizes too much. This is so that no information regarding my hand type/strength can be gauged (from the bet size, atleast), as it would be the same for all my range. Also regarding being out of position, I'm only OOP against a button call. I'm in position against either the SB or BB if they call. Cheers for the feedback. Posted by StayOrGo
As a general strategy, this is obviously fine. But we should be willing to adjust and exploit based on our opponents at the table. If we have a loose BTN who is going to be calling us very wide, then entire range (assuming fairly tight) would benefit from opening larger so that we create a bigger pot pre-flop and hence can make a bigger pot post-flop (where we will win a bigger % of it more often than not)
In a vacuum where this is the only hand we have opened this size, none of your opponents will know what this means. They might assume you have a strong but vulnerable hand like JJ/TT, which suits us fine. Also, continuing on to future situations, there is no reason we can't be balanced with 2 opening raise sizes either here if you just split your ranges well. Just a very rough example: 3x: KK, TT, JJ, A8o-AKo, A2-A7s, KQs, KJo, 22-77, suited one gappers, garbage (like your K3o) And then 2.25x (or w/e your standard sizing) everything else (AA, QQ, 88,99, As8s-AsKs, KQo, KsJs, suited connectors.
You're not going to get all them hands in game obviously, so no-one is going to get much of a read on what your different open-sizes mean. But if they think your range is X based on what you've shown down, throw in a curveball
I would echo what others have said generally. I would rather be raising with hands that play better post flop here, suited connectors, suited 1/2 gapers, and even come non suited connectors. With the BB's high VPIP I think this is even more important. I can see what your thinking was and in the 'playing the opponent not the cards' sense, if you went with an informed plan that you could fire 2 bullets post flop and get him off then all good. I just would rather be doing it with hands that might nail the flop and provide a solid back up as obviously it will be hard to figure out how you stand in the hand on the vast majority of flops, even kxx. As you hinted at, you were in the best position to judge the player etc considering you had been playing with him for a while. Posted by markycash
Hi Mark,
Hands like these always get a plethora of views from various people. To some people raising with such hands is just a no-no, to others it's routine, and to some it's, ok now and again.
It's impossible to justify actions to all camps, which is why my "plays" will always receive mixed reviews. My request of people, is to not look at things as wholely Good or wholely Bad, but to consider plays with an open mind (even if it seems completely bizaar to you)
I would love to be able to justify to every individual, why I think something is +ev, but will never be able to convince all. So I just offer my opinion/thoughts and people can dismiss it or consider it as they see fit.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SECOND HAND NOW REVEALED : Hi Mark, Hands like these always get a plethora of views from various people. To some people raising with such hands is just a no-no, to others it's routine, and to some it's, ok now and again. It's impossible to justify actions to all camps, which is why my "plays" will always receive mixed reviews. My request of people, is to not look at things as wholely Good or wholely Bad, but to consider plays with an open mind (even if it seems completely bizaar to you) I would love to be able to justify to every individual, why I think something is +ev, but will never be able to convince all. So I just offer my opinion/thoughts and people can dismiss it or consider it as they see fit. Thanks for the feedback. Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
Careful. You may get labelled "The Madman" for your maniac style of play ;-)
Comments
What a great thread - well done Graham, thank you.
Note especially the comment by Marc - the Ali Mallu factor. Ali could have, literally, ANYTHING here.
Brilliant idea for game development which I will take on board for future live games.
I think the process of doing this will probably help you rationale any plays you make good or bad and move on to the subsequent hands with a more clear mind.
Looking forward to seeing your subsequent hands and thoughts behind your play, again thanks for sharing!
Hopefully everyone discussing/reading the analysis can take something from it.
I think pre-flop is very bad - particularly with your read. K3o is just really a bad hand that you do not want to be playing with OOP. There are lots of hands we can be raising here if we want to get more involved - all the suited connectors for instance. Even raising some garbage suited hand (like T3s for instance) would probably* be better than opening with K3o. If BTN was tight, then maybe opening it becomes fine - but with his VPIP, it's definitely not.
Anyway, I suspect you probably already know the open was bad
Turn - I think this is an OK move to make with your reads and your image. I would probably be intending to fire out a large bet on certain rivers though since I think just betting turn alone is probably not going to be enough +ev.
What was your plan on different rivers if he'd called the turn?
I can see what your thinking was and in the 'playing the opponent not the cards' sense, if you went with an informed plan that you could fire 2 bullets post flop and get him off then all good. I just would rather be doing it with hands that might nail the flop and provide a solid back up as obviously it will be hard to figure out how you stand in the hand on the vast majority of flops, even kxx.
As you hinted at, you were in the best position to judge the player etc considering you had been playing with him for a while.
In a vacuum where this is the only hand we have opened this size, none of your opponents will know what this means. They might assume you have a strong but vulnerable hand like JJ/TT, which suits us fine. Also, continuing on to future situations, there is no reason we can't be balanced with 2 opening raise sizes either here if you just split your ranges well. Just a very rough example: 3x: KK, TT, JJ, A8o-AKo, A2-A7s, KQs, KJo, 22-77, suited one gappers, garbage (like your K3o) And then 2.25x (or w/e your standard sizing) everything else (AA, QQ, 88,99, As8s-AsKs, KQo, KsJs, suited connectors.
You're not going to get all them hands in game obviously, so no-one is going to get much of a read on what your different open-sizes mean. But if they think your range is X based on what you've shown down, throw in a curveball