In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Cheers TK, much appreciated. :=) BTW, I'm not great with theses acronyms. TOTW? Which one of these beauties did you mean TK? lol Rank Abbr. Meaning TOTW Taste of the Wild TotW Tales of the World (game) TOTW Topic of the Week TOTW Top of the World TOTW Temple of Three Winds (Anarchy Online Mmorpg location) TOTW Twist of the Wrist (motorcycles) TOTW Treasures of the Web TOTW Take Over the World TOTW Tune of the Week (radio shows) TOTW Thoughts of the Week TOTW Trance Around the World (radio show) TOTW Tutorial of the Week TOTW Top of the Week TOTW Team of the Week Posted by StayOrGo
Gutted that I've never won this.
Snap fold btw, but I am now officially useless at MTTs so I guess the correct answer is go all in and pick up the pot.
With your AK hand, I generally prefer to know what I'm planning on doing before I make a 4b but sometimes it's easier said than done! Being IP I am generally more prone to flatting my AK unless I know my opponent is really out of line with his 3b (even given positions where we should have a strong opening range from here) If you think he's 3b wide for value though then 4b is great because we put him into a tough decision with a lot of his hands like TT/JJ for instance. (which he prob will get away from post if an A flops)
With the 67s hand I agree with markycash. On first glance it seems like an easy fold but there are a few options. We can simply just raise now to try and represent Tx or we can call. If we call, there are many options we can proceed with:
- Donk turn - Check, and see how action develops - potentially putting in a raise if OR bets and Neil Channing folds. - If it checks through, we can lead river very large
Be interesting to see what you did. With a tight image, I think I would definitely be making a play in this spot but if I'd been pretty active I would probably just let it go.
Id fold with so little invested... not many good turns & any good Turns (IE another 7) are just getting us in more trouble if we are behind.
a re-raise looks super strong and would be the only other option but against 2 decent players you are unlikely to get rid ot 88+ on the flop which makes the turn super hard to play.
I knew a few people would say it's a good spot to make a play but I don't think it's the right board. We are going to find it harder to get rid of any hands with very good equity like FDs and SDs and combos of the two. On say a 10106 or 10102 board a play here is better as we can fold out better hands easier.
I just feel we have to think there are better spots to get involved in than this
I think I'm in the fold camp. If we raise I think we have to decide what it is we're repping as you're no longer playing your hand if you raise. So how you play hearts or 89 or Tx or 77 on this board becomes important. I'd much prefer a raise in position, calling would be bad given there are so few turns that are good for your hand, and Neil is unlikely to let it all check through on the turn. If you raise you've got to be prepared to fire 3 at this but with your stack size it's plausible but could be seen as spewy if it doesn't come off!
Suspect the 'move camp' is just pre-empting your actual play given it's a post-worthy hand. Suspect 90% of players would fold here?
Dunno, I'm not that useful, but those would be my thoughts.
Hope you're well and good to play against you the other night in the MTT.
Just discovered your thread and will slowly make my way through it. Loved Gus Hansen's book and this format. And have already read your first hand and given it some thought.
My own conclusion on it was you played it perfectly fine and, controversially(!), I see nothing wrong with the pre-flop 3 bettor's play!
Suited gapped connectors is a playable hand with plenty of potential to land a monster flop which will crush pre-flop premium hands. The main point is though, HE was the aggressor- he played the hand strongly by 3-betting and since everyone else just called this bet and didn't put any pressure back on him, then when he flops the nuts he's obviously going to try and get the lot in asap. You can't fault his play after his initial 3-bet.
His only debatable move in the entire hand is his initial pre-flop bet and it seems like a perfectly legitimate move to me, albeit not necessarily one I think I'd be looking to make that early in the game.
That being said, and bearing in mind you didn't put a foot wrong either, that must have been horrible to see the 10-8 flip over and a giant relief to house up on the river!
I think the guy who exited that early from the tournament will have more nightmares about it than you would have done had you lost the hand, because of course he could have played it more passively pre-flop and maybe got to the end of the hand having only lost 1/3rd to 1/2th his stack.
Live by the sword, die by the sword eh?
Anyway, great thread. Will enjoy dipping in and out of this over the coming weeks as I play on the tables.
UTG+1 raises to 700, UTG+2 calls, CutOff calls (Neil Channing), I call in the SB, BB calls.
Flop: ThTc7h
I check, BB checks, UTG+1 raises to 1.5K, UTG+2 folds, Neil calls.
ON ME: I decide to re-raise to 3.5K, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Neil thinks for a while, then calls.
Turn: 5s
ME TO ACT. THOUGHTS?
Thoughts so far:
I decide that 1.5K is a fairly small raise from the UTG+1 guy (compaired to his previous C-bets which had been about 65% of the pot), which possibly signifies great strength, but more likely a weak continuation bet.
I feel Neil's range is quite wide, Tx, 7x, low pocket pairs, flush and/or straight draws.
Calling is the least attractive play to me, in this spot, so I go for the re-raise to 3.5K for a variety of reasons:
1) Find out where I am. (Losing 3.5k to do this, wouldn't damage me too much)
2) A small re-raise like this would look scary to my opponents (like I wanted to get called, possible Ten or 77 in their eyes)
2) Possibly win 7K for a 3.5K bet if they fold.
3) Protect my hand if ahead.
4) Not give a free card to drawing hands
(It's worth pointing out that I would probably have folded if the initial flop bet was 2K+)
So onto the turn, which was the 5s, just me and Neil left in the hand, me to act from the small blind.
As I mentioned in my post if I was raising this on the flop then I would be looking to fire the turn too as it isn't 'air' hands we are looking to fold and the story told by the betting will have to be convincing.
As you mentioned and I noted in my reply I think it is entirely possible Neil has 7x or Tx here but his range I don't think is polarised towards these hands and he could have a wide variety of holdings. I would be following up on the turn and betting an amount that priced out draws.
I think at this stage if you fire the turn then pocket pairs that Neil may have called with on the flop will have to sigh/fold with the strength you have shown in the hand (unless Neil plans to get tricky with you which would be exceptional play without 7x or Tx given the way the hand has played).
Hi Graham, Hope you're well and good to play against you the other night in the MTT. Just discovered your thread and will slowly make my way through it. Loved Gus Hansen's book and this format. And have already read your first hand and given it some thought. My own conclusion on it was you played it perfectly fine and, controversially(!), I see nothing wrong with the pre-flop 3 bettor's play! Suited gapped connectors is a playable hand with plenty of potential to land a monster flop which will crush pre-flop premium hands. The main point is though, HE was the aggressor- he played the hand strongly by 3-betting and since everyone else just called this bet and didn't put any pressure back on him, then when he flops the nuts he's obviously going to try and get the lot in asap. You can't fault his play after his initial 3-bet. His only debatable move in the entire hand is his initial pre-flop bet and it seems like a perfectly legitimate move to me, albeit not necessarily one I think I'd be looking to make that early in the game. That being said, and bearing in mind you didn't put a foot wrong either, that must have been horrible to see the 10-8 flip over and a giant relief to house up on the river! I think the guy who exited that early from the tournament will have more nightmares about it than you would have done had you lost the hand, because of course he could have played it more passively pre-flop and maybe got to the end of the hand having only lost 1/3rd to 1/2th his stack. Live by the sword, die by the sword eh? Anyway, great thread. Will enjoy dipping in and out of this over the coming weeks as I play on the tables. :-) Posted by RICHORFORD
Hi Richard, yes it was good sharing a table with you deep in the MTT. I must congratulate you on your improvement btw. I have noticed, very clearly, that your game has improved, so I am not surprised to be coming across you deep into Main Events and £55 Bounty Hunter's etc. So, well done. :=)
Glad you are enjoying the thread. Regarding this first hand. I certainly thought it was "unusual" that he 3bet with T8s so early in the tournament, but I am certainly not critical of it. I think it shows a creative element to his game, which I respect.
When he turned over the T8, I was a little disappointed, but not totally surprised that I was behind. In fact, it was much preferable, to seeing him turn over pocket Jacks, which would have left me drawing very thin.
Clearly I was delighted to see the Jack on the river and get a lucky double up. Yes I did feel for him, however, with Poker, I think you need to embrace the whole game, including the variance. I've probably played over 5 million hands of poker, so I embrace the inevitable good luck when I get it, and accept the inevitable bad luck, when that comes too. I find it best not to be too "attached" to good luck or bad luck, but just try and make the most +ev decisions that you can make each time, and then allow fate/luck to do it's thing, accepting it either way.
Anyhow, I ramble on, clearly I was "over the moon" to house up on the river!
As we are currently discussing a hand I played against Neil Channing.
I wanted to say at the outset, what a pleasure and priviledge it was to share a table with Neil at the UKPC.
Clearly Neil's insight into the game, is far beyond anything I can muster, and sitting down at the table with a man of his experience/ability, was a great learning experience for me.
He was also great fun and friendly at the table. He told a wonderful "Moth Catcher" joke, with theatrical prowess, expert timing and delivery, just like his poker game.
He's a great ambassador for Sky Poker and for the game in general. I'm so hoping he will bring home a bracelett from the WSOP. So if you are reading this Neil. Thanks, and all the best in Vegas mate!
As I mentioned in my post if I was raising this on the flop then I would be looking to fire the turn too as it isn't 'air' hands we are looking to fold and the story told by the betting will have to be convincing. As you mentioned and I noted in my reply I think it is entirely possible Neil has 7x or Tx here but his range I don't think is polarised towards these hands and he could have a wide variety of holdings. I would be following up on the turn and betting an amount that priced out draws. I think at this stage if you fire the turn then pocket pairs that Neil may have called with on the flop will have to sigh/fold with the strength you have shown in the hand (unless Neil plans to get tricky with you which would be exceptional play without 7x or Tx given the way the hand has played). Posted by markycash
Does everyone agree with Mark here. Should I lead out on this turn?
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Hi Richard, yes it was good sharing a table with you deep in the MTT. I must congratulate you on your improvement btw. I have noticed, very clearly, that your game has improved, so I am not surprised to be coming across you deep into Main Events and £55 Bounty Hunter's etc. So, well done. :=) Glad you are enjoying the thread. Regarding this first hand. I certainly thought it was "unusual" that he 3bet with T8s so early in the tournament, but I am certainly not critical of it. I think it shows a creative element to his game, which I respect. When he turned over the T8, I was a little disappointed, but not totally surprised that I was behind. In fact, it was much preferable, to seeing him turn over pocket Jacks, which would have left me drawing very thin. Clearly I was delighted to see the Jack on the river and get a lucky double up. Yes I did feel for him, however, with Poker, I think you need to embrace the whole game, including the variance. I've probably played over 5 million hands of poker, so I embrace the inevitable good luck when I get it, and accept the inevitable bad luck, when that comes too. I find it best not to be too "attached" to good luck or bad luck, but just try and make the most +ev decisions that you can make each time, and then allow fate/luck to do it's thing, accepting it either way. Anyhow, I ramble on, clearly I was "over the moon" to house up on the river! Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
Cheers for your comments re- my play Graham.
I do feel my play has improved a great deal over the past 24 months, although there's still a long way to go before I would class myself as a 'good' player. I think I'd allow myself to be called a 'competent' player these days! ;-) I often go deep in MTTs and have been making a bigger percentage of FTs than I previously did.
I am enjoying my poker more than ever though, which is a good thing after playing it for 16 years as it would have been easy to have lost interest in it by now.
One question regarding the admin of your 'every hand revealed' project: when you say you recorded every detail of the hand into your phone, was that inputting it by text or quietly dictating it verbally into the phone's voice recorder?
Either way it's impressive you could play the hand and record every detail on the table without it being a distraction to yourself or others, or getting the info wrong.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Does everyone agree with Mark here. Should I lead out on this turn? Posted by StayOrGo
I should probably have said the main reason I would lead the turn and for an amount that prices out draws is that while the flop reraise I feel looks strong... Any drawing hands that opponent has were given a fair price to draw (especially with implied odds if they feel you have 7x or Tx and think will get paid often if they hit). Other parts of the opponents range may have floated to see what you do on the turn.
Again it is entirely possible Neil is sitting with 7x or Tx but I feel that a turn bet that prices out draws and makes it difficult for Neil to continue without 7x or Tx is where we either take the pot down or give up on the pot if we are called.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : I should probably have said the main reason I would lead the turn and for an amount that prices out draws is that while the flop reraise I feel looks strong... Any drawing hands that opponent has were given a fair price to draw (especially with implied odds if they feel you have 7x or Tx and think will get paid often if they hit). Other parts of the opponents range may have floated to see what you do on the turn. Again it is entirely possible Neil is sitting with 7x or Tx but I feel that a turn bet that prices out draws and makes it difficult for Neil to continue without 7x or Tx is where we either take the pot down or give up on the pot if we are called. Posted by markycash
Hi Mark, yes, I pretty much saw this as you described. I bet 7K and Neil folded.
Usually I know exactly what type of bet I am making, ie bluff, value bet, semi-bluff, blocker bet etc, although on this occasion, I couldn't categorise the bet. I didn't know if Neil had a draw, a low/medium, pocket pair or a better 7. So I had no idea if it was a successful bluff or if I was ahead all the time.
I just felt that a reasonable sized bet would get him to fold a large part of his range. Also on the flop, he deliberated quite a bit when calling my re-raise.
I know a player of Neil's standard can do this for deception, but I was cautiously optimistic that he would fold, to a decent turn bet, which I considered to be a satisfactory outcome.
I would love to know what Neil had, but it's probably a bit optimistic to expect him to remember the hand. Knowing Neil and his ability, it was probably a very good fold by him.
Are we all done with this hand now? Shall I move on?
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Hi Mark, yes, I pretty much saw this as you described. I bet 7K and Neil folded. Usually I know exactly what type of bet I am making, ie bluff, value bet, semi-bluff, blocker bet etc, although on this occasion, I couldn't categorise the bet. I didn't know if Neil had a draw, a low/medium, pocket pair or a better 7. So I had no idea if it was a successful bluff or if I was ahead all the time. I just felt that a reasonable sized bet would get him to fold a large part of his range. Also on the flop, he deliberated quite a bit when calling my re-raise. I know a player of Neil's standard can do this for deception, but I was cautiously optimistic that he would fold, to a decent turn bet, which I considered to be a satisfactory outcome. I would love to know what Neil had, but it's probably a bit optimistic to expect him to remember the hand. Knowing Neil and his ability, it was probably a very good fold by him. Are we all done with this hand now? Shall I move on? Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
Would you say there was maybe a bit of ego in the hand as well. We all know that frisson of delight from winning a complex hand against one of the top players. Maybe your play had a bit more of the Now what do i need to do to win the hand against Neil As against Is this a hand that it makes sense to try to win?
Knowing Neil and his ability, it was probably a very good fold by him. Posted by StayOrGo
Neil is certainly great, so I mean nothing bad by him when saying this, but how can it be a very good fold? you had a pair of 7s with a low kicker, you either bluffed him or he had an easy fold surely?
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Neil is certainly great, so I mean nothing bad by him when saying this, but how can it be a very good fold? you had a pair of 7s with a low kicker, you either bluffed him or he had an easy fold surely? Posted by chiggypig
I would say it is very possible for Neil to make a very good fold here even if he was ahead.
It is all about the long run and lets just say for example Neil had pocket queens (I am not saying I think he had pocket queens or that folding them would/wouldn't be optimal, just purely as an example). If making a tough disciplined fold with pocket queens in such situations was going to save you a load of chips long term then I would personally say it is a very good fold.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Neil is certainly great, so I mean nothing bad by him when saying this, but how can it be a very good fold? you had a pair of 7s with a low kicker, you either bluffed him or he had an easy fold surely? Posted by chiggypig
Hi chiggy, thanks for the feedback.
I guess I was affording Neil the respect, I feel, he deserves, by suggesting he made a good fold.
Folding a lower pocket, or a draw, is still a good fold imo, against an aggressive player.
Many players may make a bad call here with say a flush draw and a gut shot for example.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: SIXTH HAND POST FLOP PLAY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Would you say there was maybe a bit of ego in the hand as well. We all know that frisson of delight from winning a complex hand against one of the top players. Maybe your play had a bit more of the Now what do i need to do to win the hand against Neil As against Is this a hand that it makes sense to try to win? Posted by GELDY
Hi Geld. I don't think there was any ego in this play. Although who truely knows what goes on subconsciously in one's mind.
I generally feel that, if my decision making is influenced by ego, that is the start of a very slippery slope.
However, even in the most level headed player, ego can come to the fore in certain situations.
All I will say is that I try very hard to quell it. Did it feel good to win a pot against Neil? (Someone I respect and admire)
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: FIFTH HAND REVEALED AND SIXTH HAND PARTIALLY REVEALED (AGAINST NEIL CHANNING) : Cheers for your comments re- my play Graham. I do feel my play has improved a great deal over the past 24 months, although there's still a long way to go before I would class myself as a 'good' player. I think I'd allow myself to be called a 'competent' player these days! ;-) I often go deep in MTTs and have been making a bigger percentage of FTs than I previously did. I am enjoying my poker more than ever though, which is a good thing after playing it for 16 years as it would have been easy to have lost interest in it by now. One question regarding the admin of your 'every hand revealed' project: when you say you recorded every detail of the hand into your phone, was that inputting it by text or quietly dictating it verbally into the phone's voice recorder? Either way it's impressive you could play the hand and record every detail on the table without it being a distraction to yourself or others, or getting the info wrong. Rich Posted by RICHORFORD
Hi Rich,
Regarding your above statement in blue.
I recorded the hand details by voice into my phone. I would just step back from the table, after folding the following hand, and quietly record the details. TBH some of the recordings were not "great", and I have to ad lib a tiny bit. For example I may just have recorded "Early Table Position" and I use a poetic license as to whether it was UTG+1 or UTG+2. Or that the river "bricked" rather than the actual card. Also sometimes I forgot to record the actual bet size and had to go with what I thought was about right.
The "essence" of the hands are all the same, but probably arn't 100% factual, but more 95% from as best as I can create from my notes. Gus Hansen, had the advantage of being able to see his hands again on TV, I don't.
However, for anyone thinking of doing this, I would get into a rounting of recording the hand as follows:
Namely:
1) Blind Levels
2) Starting Stack
3) Your Hand
4) Where the action starts (Table Position) and that player's percieved style
5) What the action is (include raise size)
6) Any subsequent action before you act, recording any other players styles that are involved.
Comments
Snap fold btw, but I am now officially useless at MTTs so I guess the correct answer is go all in and pick up the pot.
- Donk turn
- Check, and see how action develops - potentially putting in a raise if OR bets and Neil Channing folds.
- If it checks through, we can lead river very large
As you mentioned and I noted in my reply I think it is entirely possible Neil has 7x or Tx here but his range I don't think is polarised towards these hands and he could have a wide variety of holdings. I would be following up on the turn and betting an amount that priced out draws.
I think at this stage if you fire the turn then pocket pairs that Neil may have called with on the flop will have to sigh/fold with the strength you have shown in the hand (unless Neil plans to get tricky with you which would be exceptional play without 7x or Tx given the way the hand has played).
Again it is entirely possible Neil is sitting with 7x or Tx but I feel that a turn bet that prices out draws and makes it difficult for Neil to continue without 7x or Tx is where we either take the pot down or give up on the pot if we are called.
Now what do i need to do to win the hand against Neil
As against
Is this a hand that it makes sense to try to win?
It is all about the long run and lets just say for example Neil had pocket queens (I am not saying I think he had pocket queens or that folding them would/wouldn't be optimal, just purely as an example). If making a tough disciplined fold with pocket queens in such situations was going to save you a load of chips long term then I would personally say it is a very good fold.