You might be right - it's smaller than I would go, but definitely not too unusual.
Stack size is and position are the 2 main factors in how I size my 3b usually vs unknowns. In cash games 100bb deep for instance I will usually go between 2.5x and 3x if I'm making a 3b IP and then around 3.5x OOP. More opponents too and I'll 3b a larger amount since few hands we 3b want to go multi-way. It was my impression you were this deep (or deeper?) at this stage, hence the larger 3b amount I suggested.
Later in the tournament when stack-sizes are sub 50bb then I am definitely sizing smaller and would make it your size 3 way and Gary's size if it was just HU.
Anyway, moving onto your following hands: I think in hand 1 I would strongly consider a double barrel (with a view to maybe triple barrel) Unless we've seen opponent slow-playing before (and even if we have) it's pretty unlikely that we will be raised off our equity by betting and if we hit our hand it will be very disguised too. We have a much stronger range than villain too given we raised in HJ and he called in the BB so we can put in him tough spots even if he has a decently strong Ax like AT or AJ since we will have so many AQ/AK hands here. Obviously if he has AJ too then a J river would be a dream for us.
2nd hand I think it's fine to just give up.
3rd hand is standard. Definitely c-b this hand since it's probably our best chance of winning the pot by taking it down now.
I have 102K and I am just about chip leader on the table, although there are a lot of stacks between 50k-90k. Tournament average stack is about 65K.
UKPC2016 FIFTEENTH HAND:
====================
Blinds 250/500 Antie 75
Chip Count: 102K
Starting Hand: AdQh
I raise to 1.2K, in the CUTOFF, Button folds, SB 3bets to 3.3K, BB folds. I 4bet to 8.8K, SB folds.
My thought processes:
I think this is a standard 4bet for me here. I think to some cash games players, it may be a call, but in MTT's at this stage I prefer, to either:
1) Fold (If my opponent is VERY tight)
or, more often,
2) 4bet.
If he 5bet, I'd probably fold, although against some opponents it could be either, a call or a six bet. It would depend upon the table dynamic to that point, and if there was any potential "leveling" going on.
I was quite happy to win the pot uncontested and add just over 4k to my stack. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm fairly happy to 3bet here with AJs despite the original raiser being UTG+1, as he is an aggresive opener, that often folds to 3bets. Some people may call, but as you know I have a real dislike of calling early table position raises with these types of holdings. So I happily 3bet. A surprising "cold call" by the Button, and then a slightly less surprising call by the original raiser.
POST FLOP: So I have the nut flush draw on a paired board. UTG+1 checks.
** ON ME ** WHAT DO YOU GUYS DO HERE? (PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT, ALL THOUGHTS/OPINIONS WELCOME FROM PRO'S, RECREATIONAL PLAYERS AND NOVICES ALIKE)
I just wrote a reply but i apparently wasn't logged in so i lost it
The AQo i think a 4bet is a reasonable play to make. Flatting is also fine. AQo doesn't flop too well so going to the flop as the preflop aggressor makes it easier to play.
with the AJd, a hand that plays quite well vs an active UTG +1 player I think I prefer flatting as opposed to 3betting for value.
When we flop a flush draw I think a cbet is the most obvious way to proceed, with us having the strongest range on a board that shouldn't hit either play super hard. I think the button cold caller probably has the strongest range of the two and could have hands like 99-JJ, AQ, KQs maybe even AK/QQ that he doesn't want to 4bet and face a 5bet with. I would cbet and my action on the turn would depend on who called/ what came on the turn.
Since you ask for comments from all levels for hand 16 I'll give my thoughts. I'm normally c betting but taking the time to look at the options I'm check calling. There are a lot of pairs in their ranges that I don't think a c bet will fold out and I will not be happy on the turn facing a call to my c bet unless I improve. Even if we hit the flush we don't want to get it all in on a paired board so I want to pot control. This is a great hand for me to actually stop and think about because it is probably one of my biggest leaks. I build a decent stack as you have done. Get a pretty hand and bluff/semi-bluff off a load of chips. Interested to see what the rest say.
Since you ask for comments from all levels for hand 16 I'll give my thoughts. I'm normally c betting but taking the time to look at the options I'm check calling. There are a lot of pairs in their ranges that I don't think a c bet will fold out and I will not be happy on the turn facing a call to my c bet unless I improve. Even if we hit the flush we don't want to get it all in on a paired board so I want to pot control. This is a great hand for me to actually stop and think about because it is probably one of my biggest leaks. I build a decent stack as you have done. Get a pretty hand and bluff/semi-bluff off a load of chips. Interested to see what the rest say. Posted by thisltedu
I would also be checking - but more likely with the idea of check raising if last to act chucks out a bet. I think it looks super strong in this spot.
I cant see the exact flop in the post but we are continuing our story.
I just wrote a reply but i apparently wasn't logged in so i lost it The AQo i think a 4bet is a reasonable play to make. Flatting is also fine. AQo doesn't flop too well so going to the flop as the preflop aggressor makes it easier to play. with the AJd, a hand that plays quite well vs an active UTG +1 player I think I prefer flatting as opposed to 3betting for value. When we flop a flush draw I think a cbet is the most obvious way to proceed, with us having the strongest range on a board that shouldn't hit either play super hard. I think the button cold caller probably has the strongest range of the two and could have hands like 99-JJ, AQ, KQs maybe even AK/QQ that he doesn't want to 4bet and face a 5bet with. I would cbet and my action on the turn would depend on who called/ what came on the turn. Posted by FeelGroggy
Hi Danny, many thanks for your response, much appreciated.
Yes it is the "cold caller" that I am most wary off.
I think he could have a whole range of pairs. Sometimes people play KK or AA like this, as a cold 4bet looks SO strong.
Also we are 180 BB's deep, so whilst I expect most people to fold low pocket pairs, it is possible that he may consider set mining.
To me his range, roughly looked like this
22-77 - 15%
88-AA - 65%
AK, AQs - 10%
Other - 10%
I will give a few more people a chance to reply before I discuss the actual flop action.
Incidently, what would you do if your flop continuation bet, met with a re-raise?
Since you ask for comments from all levels for hand 16 I'll give my thoughts. I'm normally c betting but taking the time to look at the options I'm check calling. There are a lot of pairs in their ranges that I don't think a c bet will fold out and I will not be happy on the turn facing a call to my c bet unless I improve. Even if we hit the flush we don't want to get it all in on a paired board so I want to pot control. This is a great hand for me to actually stop and think about because it is probably one of my biggest leaks. I build a decent stack as you have done. Get a pretty hand and bluff/semi-bluff off a load of chips. Interested to see what the rest say. Posted by thisltedu
Hi Donald, many thanks for your reply.
As I alluded to in my response to Danny, I agree with you. There are a lot of pairs, in their ranges (particularly the cold calller), that arn't folding to a flop C-bet.
Will respond with actual flop action a little later. Thanks again for your feedback.
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : I would also be checking - but more likely with the idea of check raising if last to act chucks out a bet. I think it looks super strong in this spot. I cant see the exact flop in the post but we are continuing our story. Posted by Itsover4u
Thanks for this Itsover4u, check/raising is definately a consideration here.
However, lets just suppose, for now, that the cold caller does have a pair. Should we still check/raise if he bets? (I'm not saying we shouldn't, I'm just asking the question)
7K now, c.12K on turn regardless of whether hit or miss Nice thread btw Posted by Essexphil
Hi Essex,
Thanks for this reply, I can definately see the merits of leading out two streets here.
However if you were to believe (as I did) that the chance of the "cold caller" having a pocket pair was very likely (80% imo - subjective of course) would you still do the same? (I'm not saying you shouldn't btw)
Also, how would you respond if re-raised on either turn or river?
The notes in my recording went something like this, "The Button Cold Called, probably a pocket pair."
So I seemed quite convinced at the time that it was a pocket pair. Not everyone plays the same, but to me, AQ usually folds here, and AK, 4bets, so cold calls, can often be pocket pairs.
Cheers for the feedback.
G
P.S. Interestingly 4 replies from very good players, 4 different opinions :=) Don't you just love poker?
You might be right - it's smaller than I would go, but definitely not too unusual. Stack size is and position are the 2 main factors in how I size my 3b usually vs unknowns. In cash games 100bb deep for instance I will usually go between 2.5x and 3x if I'm making a 3b IP and then around 3.5x OOP. More opponents too and I'll 3b a larger amount since few hands we 3b want to go multi-way. It was my impression you were this deep (or deeper?) at this stage, hence the larger 3b amount I suggested. Later in the tournament when stack-sizes are sub 50bb then I am definitely sizing smaller and would make it your size 3 way and Gary's size if it was just HU. Anyway, moving onto your following hands: I think in hand 1 I would strongly consider a double barrel (with a view to maybe triple barrel) Unless we've seen opponent slow-playing before (and even if we have) it's pretty unlikely that we will be raised off our equity by betting and if we hit our hand it will be very disguised too. We have a much stronger range than villain too given we raised in HJ and he called in the BB so we can put in him tough spots even if he has a decently strong Ax like AT or AJ since we will have so many AQ/AK hands here. Obviously if he has AJ too then a J river would be a dream for us. 2nd hand I think it's fine to just give up. 3rd hand is standard. Definitely c-b this hand since it's probably our best chance of winning the pot by taking it down now. Posted by F_Ivanovic
I just explained the KK hand to Gary (Hand 9), as he rarely goes on the forum, and hasn't seen this thread.
He says he would make it 2.4k with all of his range that he 3bets with. So that's his take on it.
Also, as you alluded to Ivan, his 3bet sizes become smaller at the latter stages.
A lot of pairs that aren't folding to an initial cbet, but a lot of pairs that won't be able to withstand pressure for 3 streets. I think checking kinda gives the game up a little bit, and we have more than enough equity plus a strong perceived range to empty the clip. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Thanks for the feedback hhyftrftdr. So you are in the betting two streets camp with Essex Phil?
If so, what if you get re-raised on the flop? Are you getting it in? Is that what you mean by emptying the clip?
i would make a small raise here and make a judgement after that the cold caller imo has a pocket pair Posted by weecheez1
Thanks for this weecheez1, so you lead out a small amount. In line with questions I asked the others. If you are re-raised on the flop, what would your response be?
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : Thanks for this weecheez1, so you lead out a small amount. In line with questions I asked the others. If you are re-raised on the flop, what would your response be? Cheers, G Posted by StayOrGo
In Response to Re: StayOrGo UKPC Hand Review: 15TH HAND REVEALED + START OF 16TH HAND (GET INVOLVED, PLAY IT AS ME) : sorry mate i was editing as you posted Posted by weecheez1
No worries, so do you fold/call or 4bet if re-raised by the cold caller on the flop?
Comments
Later in the tournament when stack-sizes are sub 50bb then I am definitely sizing smaller and would make it your size 3 way and Gary's size if it was just HU.
2nd hand I think it's fine to just give up.
Blinds 250/500 Antie 75
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feel free to comment.
Cheers,
G
Blinds 250/500 Antie 75
WHAT DO YOU GUYS DO HERE? (PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT, ALL THOUGHTS/OPINIONS WELCOME FROM PRO'S, RECREATIONAL PLAYERS AND NOVICES ALIKE)
Cheers,
G
I'm normally c betting but taking the time to look at the options I'm check calling. There are a lot of pairs in their ranges that I don't think a c bet will fold out and I will not be happy on the turn facing a call to my c bet unless I improve. Even if we hit the flush we don't want to get it all in on a paired board so I want to pot control.
This is a great hand for me to actually stop and think about because it is probably one of my biggest leaks. I build a decent stack as you have done. Get a pretty hand and bluff/semi-bluff off a load of chips.
Interested to see what the rest say.
Nice thread btw