i am a little miffed that it could be inferred that my figures are fake news.
i try to be precise in my language when presenting the numbers. you will see that there have been 1,165 players new to major tournaments in october and 1,199 in september.
not one of these people have played a major tournament before, with records going back to 2010 and covering 33,400 major tournaments played.
major tournaments are those with (a) guarantee over £500, (b) buy-in above £3, and (c) no fewer than 20 entrants. if any player never plays one they will not appear in my numbers. however, they will appear once they do.
It's not that your figures are fake news Rob, I don't doubt for one moment they are correct. It's how they are interpreted.
You made it quite clear that the "new players" were new to a variety of MTT's. This was interpreted as new to Sky Poker, which is a very different thing.
It seems to have escaped the notice of this thread that MTT's, in their entirety, only account for around one sixth of Online Poker Traffic. Another One sixth play SNG's, & the rest - some two thirds of the entire Online Poker revenue, comes from Cash Games. So when discussing the effect of MTT's on Sky Poker, it needs to be viewed in context.
One reason I have tried to stay away from commenting on this thread is that I'd get caught in a time & space lop from which I'd never escape, & so I only posted reluctantly last night, & now I wish I had not, as the last thing I wanted to do was upset you, & imply or suggest your data is inaccurate. Apologies if you thought I was taking a swipe at you. I was not.
This debate has been purely about the mtt schedule. I therefore think that the only figures that are appropriate to the debate are the figures that Aussie quoted for those playing their first major mtt on Sky. I think it irrelevant what the players have done before, whether it was cash or sitngoes on Sky, tournaments elsewhere or even left Sky and returned. The number of players playing their first major mtt is absolutely fair, as they cant be counted more than once. The figures quoted were around 1200 players per month, which would represent 14,000 players per year, assuming they were average months. The effectiveness of your tournament schedule can surely only be determined by the number of these players that go on to become regular mtt players. The percentage of cash games, turnover, and profit is completely irrelevant to this debate. I suppose that what may be good for the schedule today, may not be good for the future. I think I have said enough on this thread, so that's it for me. Unless I get Tontoed, or Lone Rangered that is. I would like to point out that I have said all this as a big fan of Sky Poker. I have played here since 2009, currently play 9 or 10 tournaments per day, 7 days per week, and currently spend around £1,000 per week on buy ins. This will obviously be a drop in the ocean for the big players, but its a lot for me. I looked upon this purely as a debate regarding the number, and effect of the bounty hunters on the schedule not as a means of criticising Sky Poker.
because of the question raised over my figures i have spent today double checking, treble checking, re-testing my workings. i am pleased to say that all is correct.
in doing this is have uncovered some fantastic numbers connected with major tournaments on sky poker. major tournaments are those with (a) guarantee over £500, (b) buy-in above £3, and (c) no fewer than 20 entrants.
in 8 years of major tournaments i have records of 300,000 entrants. of these, there are 150,000 unique players of a major tournament. so far in 2017, there have been 38,551 unique players in 7,033 major MTTs of these 13,794 had never played a major before. that is 36%.
there will be a variety of reasons why these players have never appeared before. they might have been playing cash, or SNGs, or lower buy-in MTTs, non major MTTs or new to Sky Poker.
what I get from this is well done Sky Poker. it is magnificent that the MTT schedules can attract so many to try.
we should find ways to keep hold of greater numbers. we can all help achieve this.
Debate is about the MTT schedule, Aussie doesn't track all games. Someone who plays smaller games then plays the odd "major" MTT is a lot different to someone who comes onto sky and starts playing mains every night.
Also, lots of players wont just play MTTs or wont just play one site. If a player moves some of their play from one format to another on sky then sky wont care as they still get the RB.
The effectiveness of your tournament schedule can surely only be determined by the number of these players that go on to become regular mtt players.
We have no idea how many of these players are actually potential long or even medium term customers. Lots may have had a win in a small game or on another part of SB&G and treat themselves to a main game. Maybe they have seen poker on television and fancy a go. Schedule will have nothing to do whether they stay, it will more likely be down to whether they manage to bink.
The schedule isn't set in stone and fluctuates, if a certain MTT is struggling then sky cant justify it taking up a prime spot in the lobby. No one can see into the future but sky have all the data to know what is going on at the moment.
You say what may be good now may not be good for the future but what is the average age of players wanting deepstack games and the age of those wanting bh games?
because of the question raised over my figures i have spent today double checking, treble checking, re-testing my workings. i am pleased to say that all is correct.
in doing this is have uncovered some fantastic numbers connected with major tournaments on sky poker. major tournaments are those with (a) guarantee over £500, (b) buy-in above £3, and (c) no fewer than 20 entrants.
in 8 years of major tournaments i have records of 300,000 entrants. of these, there are 150,000 unique players of a major tournament. so far in 2017, there have been 38,551 unique players in 7,033 major MTTs of these 13,794 had never played a major before. that is 36%.
there will be a variety of reasons why these players have never appeared before. they might have been playing cash, or SNGs, or lower buy-in MTTs, non major MTTs or new to Sky Poker.
what I get from this is well done Sky Poker. it is magnificent that the MTT schedules can attract so many to try.
we should find ways to keep hold of greater numbers. we can all help achieve this.
The figures you quote are really interesting, you also record a daily figure of the number of players that participate in what you describe as the major tournaments. Do you know what that figure has been doing?
Debate is about the MTT schedule, Aussie doesn't track all games. Someone who plays smaller games then plays the odd "major" MTT is a lot different to someone who comes onto sky and starts playing mains every night.
Also, lots of players wont just play MTTs or wont just play one site. If a player moves some of their play from one format to another on sky then sky wont care as they still get the RB.
The effectiveness of your tournament schedule can surely only be determined by the number of these players that go on to become regular mtt players.
We have no idea how many of these players are actually potential long or even medium term customers. Lots may have had a win in a small game or on another part of SB&G and treat themselves to a main game. Maybe they have seen poker on television and fancy a go. Schedule will have nothing to do whether they stay, it will more likely be down to whether they manage to bink.
The schedule isn't set in stone and fluctuates, if a certain MTT is struggling then sky cant justify it taking up a prime spot in the lobby. No one can see into the future but sky have all the data to know what is going on at the moment.
You say what may be good now may not be good for the future but what is the average age of players wanting deepstack games and the age of those wanting bh games?
You are right there are a number of imponderables in this debate. However I am certain that anyone starting a new poker site tomorrow wouldn't just include bounty hunters in their mtt schedule. Any business wants to retain as many of their new customers as possible to maximise their profitability. Any restriction of the mainstream products that they offer is likely to have an effect on this. There could be a number of players leaving Sky on a regular basis due to the bounty hunter focused tournament schedule, or maybe they haven't. Lets say that due to the popularity of the mtt schedule, and the fantastic number of new players, that the number of regular daily players has increased dramatically. That in itself would be proof of success, and that the unbalanced nature of the schedule doesn't matter. What if the number had stood still, what would that prove. What if they have decreased? Could you blame other influences? What about the Russians? That would be topical. I don't know what the figures are, but I know a man who does.
Good to see the UKOPs mini 'main', which was a freezeout, absolutely smash its guarantee tonight.
Obv Sky have no idea what they are doing.
It's a shame that tonight's UKOPS 'mini Main' event didn't even make the Guarantee. I know it only missed by £110, but shows that even when SKY puts on a £3,000 Freezeout tourney, it doesn't attract enough people, and even though I don't particularly like Bounty Hunters, and would prefer a more varied schedule, I'm not suprised they aren't willing to change. It would have been nice if TheMadMonk who started this debate would have played tonight, I can only assume he was busy doing something else or on another site.
Perhaps a £22 Freezeout, especially with Satellites to it (to attract us lower stakes players), might work as a mid-range, slightly lower budget midweek Main....... but I won't hold my breath !
The tin foil hat wearing part of me had initially assumed that the glut of BH's in the MTT schedule here was a result of Sky pushing players towards a lower variance form of tournaments in order to keep deposits flowing round the system for longer and generating more rake. However, having followed this thread with interest, it really does seem that this is more of a reaction towards player preferences rather than something pushed upon us. I'm also happy to assume that the move away from a mostly regular freezeout to a mostly BH schedule (whenever that was?) was something that happened organically as a result of players voting with their feet.
Assuming all of the above is correct, I do find it curious as to why the trend here on Sky isn't repeated to anywhere near the same extent on the larger international sites? I would imagine that an MTT schedule heavily weighted towards BH's would be preferable from a business perspective so other sites would surely be highly incentivised to follow a similar path had it been suggested it was what their customers wanted.
Good to see the UKOPs mini 'main', which was a freezeout, absolutely smash its guarantee tonight.
Obv Sky have no idea what they are doing.
It's a shame that tonight's UKOPS 'mini Main' event didn't even make the Guarantee. I know it only missed by £110, but shows that even when SKY puts on a £3,000 Freezeout tourney, it doesn't attract enough people, and even though I don't particularly like Bounty Hunters, and would prefer a more varied schedule, I'm not suprised they aren't willing to change. It would have been nice if TheMadMonk who started this debate would have played tonight, I can only assume he was busy doing something else or on another site.
Perhaps a £22 Freezeout, especially with Satellites to it (to attract us lower stakes players), might work as a mid-range, slightly lower budget midweek Main....... but I won't hold my breath !
The Business try to take a longer view on these things, & don't knee-jerk based on one bad night, but it's worth making the point that the nightly Mini here almost never overlays. It's usually £2,000 on a Thursday, but was £3,000 last night (as it was Mini UKOPS), so that did not help. I'd bet very good money that it would have covered easily if it were a BH though.
The point is, of course, we all know that the majority of players here prefer BH's, but Sky Poker are mindful that they want to retain Freezeouts, too, so as to do that impossible thing - please all of the players.
It's really not easy to get the balance right & please everyone, but more than any other Online Poker site, Sky Poker really do try.
The tin foil hat wearing part of me had initially assumed that the glut of BH's in the MTT schedule here was a result of Sky pushing players towards a lower variance form of tournaments in order to keep deposits flowing round the system for longer and generating more rake. However, having followed this thread with interest, it really does seem that this is more of a reaction towards player preferences rather than something pushed upon us. I'm also happy to assume that the move away from a mostly regular freezeout to a mostly BH schedule (whenever that was?) was something that happened organically as a result of players voting with their feet.
Assuming all of the above is correct, I do find it curious as to why the trend here on Sky isn't repeated to anywhere near the same extent on the larger international sites? I would imagine that an MTT schedule heavily weighted towards BH's would be preferable from a business perspective so other sites would surely be highly incentivised to follow a similar path had it been suggested it was what their customers wanted.
Morning Dues,
That's a very interesting Post. I'm certainly not criticising your initial "tin hat brigade" view, but you go on to make some interesting & well thought out observations which surprised me.
I can absolutely guarantee you that whilst Sky Poker are aware - & happy of course - that BH's are good for the poker ecology - the money lasts longer - that was NOT the reason they came to dominate here.
In fact the Team in the Office were never particularly keen on having BH's dominate the schedule, & that is still the case.
As you go on to say, the reason BH's dominate the schedule here is a reaction towards player preferences. No more, no less. That's what the majority of the players wanted. Freezeouts used to dominate the schedule here, but they attracted less & less runners, while more & more played BH's. There's a bit of chicken & egg here, of course.
I doubt that balance between Freezeouts & BH's will change much in the short-term, but if the players & Data suggest it has gone too far in one direction, then it might change.
Worth noting, as few have mentioned it yet, but the Online Poker Market in the UK is not exactly "buoyant" right now, so Sky Poker are doing well in a difficult market. And that is thanks not just to the guys who run the Business, but a remarkably loyal player base. I'm not sure I've ever seen an Online Poker Site where so many players have been loyal for so long.
Misty,I didn't realise there was a 3k gtd MTT on sky last night or I would have player it.
I thought it must have been an oversight. Always worth checking the Tourney Lobby each day to see if there's something different to play, particularly when the UKOPS Main and Mini series are on, and they have their own tab too, to help find what's on much more easily. £1500 Mega stack tonight at 7.30pm and just £5.50 entry fee....I'm working but hope to make it home before late reg. finishes. Hope to see you on the tables MadMonk.
Good to see the UKOPs mini 'main', which was a freezeout, absolutely smash its guarantee tonight.
Obv Sky have no idea what they are doing.
The day you have something positive to say, about anything, will probably be the day that I keel over from a heart attack, from the sheer shock of it. The fact that you can knock Sky for incurring an overlay cost, for just attempting the impossible job of keeping all the players happy, just shows what a simpleton you are Tonto. It just seems a shame that putting on a decent tournament cost them £100, and that it wasn't better supported.
Although I don't know how it usually performs, it's worth noting that the £33 bounty hunter main also missed it's guarantee by a similar percentage, so maybe it was just a quiet night on the site.
Good to see the UKOPs mini 'main', which was a freezeout, absolutely smash its guarantee tonight.
Obv Sky have no idea what they are doing.
The day you have something positive to say, about anything, will probably be the day that I keel over from a heart attack, from the sheer shock of it. The fact that you can knock Sky for incurring an overlay cost, for just attempting the impossible job of keeping all the players happy, just shows what a simpleton you are Tonto. It just seems a shame that putting on a decent tournament cost them £100, and that it wasn't better supported.
Oh irony, you can be so delicious at times.
You really don't get sarcasm do you Haysie?
Ps, I accept your apology in advance for calling me a simpleton when its you who can't grasp sarcasm and tongue in cheek posts.
Comments
I therefore think that the only figures that are appropriate to the debate are the figures that Aussie quoted for those playing their first major mtt on Sky. I think it irrelevant what the players have done before, whether it was cash or sitngoes on Sky, tournaments elsewhere or even left Sky and returned.
The number of players playing their first major mtt is absolutely fair, as they cant be counted more than once. The figures quoted were around 1200 players per month, which would represent 14,000 players per year, assuming they were average months. The effectiveness of your tournament schedule can surely only be determined by the number of these players that go on to become regular mtt players.
The percentage of cash games, turnover, and profit is completely irrelevant to this debate.
I suppose that what may be good for the schedule today, may not be good for the future.
I think I have said enough on this thread, so that's it for me. Unless I get Tontoed, or Lone Rangered that is.
I would like to point out that I have said all this as a big fan of Sky Poker. I have played here since 2009, currently play 9 or 10 tournaments per day, 7 days per week, and currently spend around £1,000 per week on buy ins. This will obviously be a drop in the ocean for the big players, but its a lot for me.
I looked upon this purely as a debate regarding the number, and effect of the bounty hunters on the schedule not as a means of criticising Sky Poker.
because of the question raised over my figures i have spent today double checking, treble checking, re-testing my workings. i am pleased to say that all is correct.
in doing this is have uncovered some fantastic numbers connected with major tournaments on sky poker. major tournaments are those with (a) guarantee over £500, (b) buy-in above £3, and (c) no fewer than 20 entrants.
in 8 years of major tournaments i have records of 300,000 entrants. of these, there are 150,000 unique players of a major tournament. so far in 2017, there have been 38,551 unique players in 7,033 major MTTs of these 13,794 had never played a major before. that is 36%.
there will be a variety of reasons why these players have never appeared before. they might have been playing cash, or SNGs, or lower buy-in MTTs, non major MTTs or new to Sky Poker.
what I get from this is well done Sky Poker. it is magnificent that the MTT schedules can attract so many to try.
we should find ways to keep hold of greater numbers. we can all help achieve this.
Also, lots of players wont just play MTTs or wont just play one site. If a player moves some of their play from one format to another on sky then sky wont care as they still get the RB.
The effectiveness of your tournament schedule can surely only be determined by the number of these players that go on to become regular mtt players.
We have no idea how many of these players are actually potential long or even medium term customers. Lots may have had a win in a small game or on another part of SB&G and treat themselves to a main game. Maybe they have seen poker on television and fancy a go. Schedule will have nothing to do whether they stay, it will more likely be down to whether they manage to bink.
The schedule isn't set in stone and fluctuates, if a certain MTT is struggling then sky cant justify it taking up a prime spot in the lobby. No one can see into the future but sky have all the data to know what is going on at the moment.
You say what may be good now may not be good for the future but what is the average age of players wanting deepstack games and the age of those wanting bh games?
However I am certain that anyone starting a new poker site tomorrow wouldn't just include bounty hunters in their mtt schedule.
Any business wants to retain as many of their new customers as possible to maximise their profitability.
Any restriction of the mainstream products that they offer is likely to have an effect on this.
There could be a number of players leaving Sky on a regular basis due to the bounty hunter focused tournament schedule, or maybe they haven't.
Lets say that due to the popularity of the mtt schedule, and the fantastic number of new players, that the number of regular daily players has increased dramatically. That in itself would be proof of success, and that the unbalanced nature of the schedule doesn't matter.
What if the number had stood still, what would that prove.
What if they have decreased?
Could you blame other influences?
What about the Russians? That would be topical.
I don't know what the figures are, but I know a man who does.
Obv Sky have no idea what they are doing.
It's a shame that tonight's UKOPS 'mini Main' event didn't even make the Guarantee. I know it only missed by £110, but shows that even when SKY puts on a £3,000 Freezeout tourney, it doesn't attract enough people, and even though I don't particularly like Bounty Hunters, and would prefer a more varied schedule, I'm not suprised they aren't willing to change. It would have been nice if TheMadMonk who started this debate would have played tonight, I can only assume he was busy doing something else or on another site.
Perhaps a £22 Freezeout, especially with Satellites to it (to attract us lower stakes players), might work as a mid-range, slightly lower budget midweek Main....... but I won't hold my breath !
Assuming all of the above is correct, I do find it curious as to why the trend here on Sky isn't repeated to anywhere near the same extent on the larger international sites? I would imagine that an MTT schedule heavily weighted towards BH's would be preferable from a business perspective so other sites would surely be highly incentivised to follow a similar path had it been suggested it was what their customers wanted.
The Business try to take a longer view on these things, & don't knee-jerk based on one bad night, but it's worth making the point that the nightly Mini here almost never overlays. It's usually £2,000 on a Thursday, but was £3,000 last night (as it was Mini UKOPS), so that did not help. I'd bet very good money that it would have covered easily if it were a BH though.
The point is, of course, we all know that the majority of players here prefer BH's, but Sky Poker are mindful that they want to retain Freezeouts, too, so as to do that impossible thing - please all of the players.
It's really not easy to get the balance right & please everyone, but more than any other Online Poker site, Sky Poker really do try.
Morning Dues,
That's a very interesting Post. I'm certainly not criticising your initial "tin hat brigade" view, but you go on to make some interesting & well thought out observations which surprised me.
I can absolutely guarantee you that whilst Sky Poker are aware - & happy of course - that BH's are good for the poker ecology - the money lasts longer - that was NOT the reason they came to dominate here.
In fact the Team in the Office were never particularly keen on having BH's dominate the schedule, & that is still the case.
As you go on to say, the reason BH's dominate the schedule here is a reaction towards player preferences. No more, no less. That's what the majority of the players wanted. Freezeouts used to dominate the schedule here, but they attracted less & less runners, while more & more played BH's. There's a bit of chicken & egg here, of course.
I doubt that balance between Freezeouts & BH's will change much in the short-term, but if the players & Data suggest it has gone too far in one direction, then it might change.
Worth noting, as few have mentioned it yet, but the Online Poker Market in the UK is not exactly "buoyant" right now, so Sky Poker are doing well in a difficult market. And that is thanks not just to the guys who run the Business, but a remarkably loyal player base. I'm not sure I've ever seen an Online Poker Site where so many players have been loyal for so long.
£1500 Mega stack tonight at 7.30pm and just £5.50 entry fee....I'm working but hope to make it home before late reg. finishes. Hope to see you on the tables MadMonk.
The fact that you can knock Sky for incurring an overlay cost, for just attempting the impossible job of keeping all the players happy, just shows what a simpleton you are Tonto.
It just seems a shame that putting on a decent tournament cost them £100, and that it wasn't better supported.
You really don't get sarcasm do you Haysie?
Ps, I accept your apology in advance for calling me a simpleton when its you who can't grasp sarcasm and tongue in cheek posts.