As a starter on tournament poker I think what you did was right, getting past the bubble is your achievement in tournaments, If the shorter stacks were very simular in size to yours then I'd shove this AK itself but if their is a very short stack 1-2BB deep then folding would be the answer. A decent tournament player might say it was a jam but as a less XP tournament player myself getting past the bubble is good so folding is the answer.
Could I have your thoughts on that hand I posted in the tournament stategy thread where I Ch shoved on the turn, would be interesting to know was I lucky you had an AK or did I make you fold a premium pair?
If your aiming just to cash as you was, it is the correct play, for me its a jam hoping for a double or triple up with the chance of going much deeper or go out.
For me it is a jam. Im playing for the win not to min cash. Unless it was a £110 buy in or bigger and the min cash was an amount I would be gutted if i missed then i may fold depending on where the other 3 players where positioned are with the big blinds etc. for a £10 min cash im jamming this everytime.
It was one on those situations where as a tourney noob I felt really thrown as to what was theoretically the correct play and it was still bugging me this morning - hence the post. I too have a much more of a playing for the win mentality (despite what the above suggests!) but folded as I felt that was what one was 'supposed' to do in those rather unique circumstances.
I'll be playing in the main tonight so will make sure I give my inner nit a good talking too before showtime .
Craig - I found your post about our tourney hand and have now posted a reply.
if its not gonna hurt your roll jam all day long if you,re conscious about the money and roll building then fold away , me i,d jam with 11p in me account gl with this quest m8
Best of luck with the challenge / diary. Nice to meet you and your lovely wife out in Vegas btw.
Reference the AK bubble hand I had a situation similar to that a few weeks back and I folded as there was a player on another table with around 1 BB (and away), so elected to fold. Think I actually went on to win the tournament, but wouldn't swear to it. So I would say it is a fold if there is another player still in with a micro stack, but if not I would be shoving.
Interesting spot, and even more interesting to get so many views of how to play it.
Personally, I'm of the 'play ftw' mind set. Unless its a huge bubble. Yes, we are prob getting called light as its a bh, but are we going to find a better spot to gii?
As has been mentioned, with the dynamics of a micro stack, there is an argument for MAXALLYING it and nitting up a min cash so we can DEV the win.
Fwiw, if you want to really MAXALLY it up, one should start tanking 50 off the bubble.
I read a fair bit on the forum, but don't post much. So while I'm here, vbol with your challenge this year. I'm sure with your cash pedigree you will tear it up in the tourneys.
Chris, jam all day long and twice on Sundays. You have already covered ur buyin by taking a couple of heads, orCLOSE TO So EFFECTIVELY FREEROLLING. BY THE WAY, ARE YOU DONIG THIS CHALLENGE ON A BANKROLL OR FROM A BUDGET? PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, COMPUTER PROBS AND TECHNOPHOBE, BAD COMBO.
You have to jam in these situations. Top 3 finish is all that matters in MTT's long term and you have to do what is right to give you best chance of achieving this.
I'm slightly stunned by how many people have posted in this thread so firstly, thanks all for the interest, support and input.
A couple of people have asked about bankroll. I'm very strict about keeping poker funds separate from 'real life' funds and previous successes at the tables mean I'm in the fortunate position of being very comfortably rolled when it comes to taking on this challenge - it would take a prolonged sharp downswing for that situation to change (that's fate tempted nicely then!). This is purely a profit goal/challenge as opposed to a specific bankroll builder.
Going back to the AK jam or fold dilemma, I mostly lean towards the jam side of the argument in retrospect, but I think there are merits to the nitty approach too. As an exercise in curiosity I ran some numbers on it. When we jam 6bb's from the btn, if the small blind folds the big blind needs 40% equity for their call to be profitable. If we are jamming with AKo, the big blind can (surprisingly) make a profitable call with a hand as 'bad' as 64s. Those numbers also exclude the value of any bounty which means that in reality even less equity is required by the big blind to be profitable overall here. Whilst there will of course be plenty of times we get looked up by something that we're dominating (any other Ax hand for example), it's still some interesting food for thought. Well, it is for an anorak like me anyway .
Far from ramping up the work-rate, I had a very lazy and chilled night with just 4 tournaments played and no cash games (so much for the motivating diary lol). I played the main, the mini, an £11 bounty hunter and another £2.20 deepstack. The mini and the £11 bh consisted of some pretty unexciting mid-stage exits without a bounty in sight, but I did manage a more respectable 31st in the main for a small cash (just the one bounty sadly though) and a 3rd place in the £2.20 deepstack. That was my 5th final table in a £2.20 deepstack for 2018 but 3rd is the highest I've managed to finish thus far. Whilst these aren't going to make too much of a dent into the £10k target, I do have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about finally taking one of these down at some point soon! Total profit for the night was a 'must do better' £32.69.
Chris, jam all day long and twice on Sundays. You have already covered ur buyin by taking a couple of heads, orCLOSE TO So EFFECTIVELY FREEROLLING. BY THE WAY, ARE YOU DONIG THIS CHALLENGE ON A BANKROLL OR FROM A BUDGET? PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, I AM EXTREMELY OLD & DODDERY.
I'm in the same boat for learning mtts as you but think I am shoving my whole CEV range and not looking at an ICM $EV being that you have covered the buy in.
I'm in the same boat for learning mtts as you but think I am shoving my whole CEV range and not looking at an ICM $EV being that you have covered the buy in.
Fully agree with your approach here Binks. Also, a fantastic example of how just one sentence can highlight quite how much of a foreign language poker can be to the uninitiated!
For a cash game player getting to 1 final table of an MTT is great, deep stacked tournaments are the most cash like MTTs and having managed to get 5 final tables already you should take down one soon
Good luck with this buddy. I'm a big fan of yours as you know. I like your approach to the game and your attitude at the tables. Add to this your writing style and sense of humour and I can see this being my favourite diary of 2018.
Lets go back to the other night with your AKo fold on the bubble with 6bb for starters if you don't mind (I may as well throw my hat in the ring/put my neck on the line) if I'm not gonna share my opinion here (hopefully a safe place) then I'm not gonna do it anywhere, so here goes...
You are absolutely right to query this hand and it shows that you are immediately thinking along the right lines in these UNIQUE spots in tournaments. People get caught up in this "playing for the win" attitude/mentality. Applying that attitude in this specific spot is not good in my opinion because:
1) you are on the bubble with a very short stack but future game dictates that you are GUARANTEED to cash within the next orbit IF you continue to fold 2) doubling up to ~12bb at this stage in the tournament DOES NOT significantly improve your chances of winning the tournament (with so much future game still to play from this point onwards it is difficult to quantify just how much doubling up here MAY improve your chances of winning the tournament, but it is certainly NOT SIGNIFICANT when the double will still leave you considerably short of even an AVERAGE STACK with 70+ players left...
Playing for the win is all well and good (and it is how we should be approaching MTT's in general of course) but bubble play is where the lines get blurred and things change. Clear shoves/raises before and after the bubble can become clear folds on the bubble and clear folds before and after the bubble can become clear shoves/raises on the bubble in certain situations. Bubbles usually put you in one of two positions (depending on your stack and how it measures up against EVERYONE else still in the tournament) you will usually either be in a position to THRIVE (this is where you should absolutely be taking chances to increase your stack and begin to put yourself in a better position to win the tournament by putting others' tournament lives at risk) or a position to SURVIVE. When you are clearly in a position to THRIVE that is when you should be thinking about top 3/winning the tournament but when you are not in this position you should no longer be thinking about winning the tournament as that is no longer your immediate concern. Your stack size and how it compares to others left in the tournament AND future game scenario in this specific situation, clearly puts you in survival mode. Your goal in this specific spot is quite clearly to survive the bubble and lock up the cash- I think I might only jam AA exactly in this spot (also worth mentioning that this is one of those spots where you should be folding AA in a satellite... I still frequently see people auto-shoving AK and QQ here on the stone bubble into blinds that cover them when they have a seat GUARANTEED before the blinds reach them again )
Being aware of future game scenario is so important in spots like this. Knowing that the bubble will burst before the blinds reach you again and covering the BB by even a single chip means you could now comfortably shove your AKo (and much wider, you could even argue a case for now shoving a Nash 6bb BTN range of 38% of hands... too wide for my liking though, even if "profitable", I'd probably prefer to still keep it pretty tight in this spot and shove something like 55+, A9o+, A5s+, KJs+, KQo+)
So, all that considered, I think your fold, in this very specific spot, is closer to being correct than incorrect.
Anyway, all the best with this Dues, I'm confident you will do very well indeed. I hope you give the MTT's a fair crack of the whip though... I would love you to just go for it and challenge the likes of Matt Bates and loololollo for volume and see what happens...
Good luck with this buddy. I'm a big fan of yours as you know. I like your approach to the game and your attitude at the tables. Add to this your writing style and sense of humour and I can see this being my favourite diary of 2018.
Lets go back to the other night with your AKo fold on the bubble with 6bb for starters if you don't mind (I may as well throw my hat in the ring/put my neck on the line) if I'm not gonna share my opinion here (hopefully a safe place) then I'm not gonna do it anywhere, so here goes...
You are absolutely right to query this hand and it shows that you are immediately thinking along the right lines in these UNIQUE spots in tournaments. People get caught up in this "playing for the win" attitude/mentality. Applying that attitude in this specific spot is not good in my opinion because:
1) you are on the bubble with a very short stack but future game dictates that you are GUARANTEED to cash within the next orbit IF you continue to fold 2) doubling up to ~12bb at this stage in the tournament DOES NOT significantly improve your chances of winning the tournament (with so much future game still to play from this point onwards it is difficult to quantify just how much doubling up here MAY improve your chances of winning the tournament, but it is certainly NOT SIGNIFICANT when the double will still leave you considerably short of even an AVERAGE STACK with 70+ players left...
Playing for the win is all well and good (and it is how we should be approaching MTT's in general of course) but bubble play is where the lines get blurred and things change. Clear shoves/raises before and after the bubble can become clear folds on the bubble and clear folds before and after the bubble can become clear shoves/raises on the bubble in certain situations. Bubbles usually put you in one of two positions (depending on your stack and how it measures up against EVERYONE else still in the tournament) you will usually either be in a position to THRIVE (this is where you should absolutely be taking chances to increase your stack and begin to put yourself in a better position to win the tournament by putting others' tournament lives at risk) or a position to SURVIVE. When you are clearly in a position to THRIVE that is when you should be thinking about top 3/winning the tournament but when you are not in this position you should no longer be thinking about winning the tournament as that is no longer your immediate concern. Your stack size and how it compares to others left in the tournament AND future game scenario in this specific situation, clearly puts you in survival mode. Your goal in this specific spot is quite clearly to survive the bubble and lock up the cash- I think I might only jam AA exactly in this spot (also worth mentioning that this is one of those spots where you should be folding AA in a satellite... I still frequently see people auto-shoving AK and QQ here on the stone bubble into blinds that cover them when they have a seat GUARANTEED before the blinds reach them again )
Being aware of future game scenario is so important in spots like this. Knowing that the bubble will burst before the blinds reach you again and covering the BB by even a single chip means you could now comfortably shove your AKo (and much wider, you could even argue a case for now shoving a Nash 6bb BTN range of 38% of hands... too wide for my liking though, even if "profitable", I'd probably prefer to still keep it pretty tight in this spot and shove something like 55+, A9o+, A5s+, KJs+, KQo+)
So, all that considered, I think your fold, in this very specific spot, is closer to being correct than incorrect.
Anyway, all the best with this Dues, I'm confident you will do very well indeed. I hope you give the MTT's a fair crack of the whip though... I would love you to just go for it and challenge the likes of Matt Bates and loololollo for volume and see what happens...
Hi Myna
Thanks for taking the time to write such an awesome post. Much of this really resonates - especially the part about the likelihood of us really being able to take down a tournament when a double up still leaves us with a paltry 12bb stack and there's such a long way still to go. Compared with the merits of locking up an immediate profit whilst still retaining another shot at a double up in a few hands time, it really is a pretty close call all things considered (or should I say close fold?!). Against a prevailing wind of voices advocating the 'get it in' approach, you have at the very least made me feel like a bit less of a berk, so thanks again .
This little debate has led to a number of musings on my part about all sorts of tournament related quandaries, so I've no doubt I'll be posting more about those soon. You were warned at the start not to expect riveting content people!
I had a fairly quiet time of things in tourney land on Sunday night and only played the mini plus another couple of £2.20 deepstacks (they've become a 'thing'!). I bricked all three without even a hint of a cash so -£15.40 for our troubles.
On the plus side, I did finally managed to tear myself away from staring into space for long enough to actually get my bottom sat in some cash games. I played a mixture of 20, 30 and 50nl with a tiny dash of 10nl thrown in at the end when the games were dying. The games were pretty dry frankly and very reg heavy, which is never too helpful. I think a lot of this stems from the pentagon promo with Sundays probably being the worst night of the lot as people make a final dash for points. All things considered I was pleased to book a modest win of +£67.76.
Comments
Could I have your thoughts on that hand I posted in the tournament stategy thread where I Ch shoved on the turn, would be interesting to know was I lucky you had an AK or did I make you fold a premium pair?
It was one on those situations where as a tourney noob I felt really thrown as to what was theoretically the correct play and it was still bugging me this morning - hence the post. I too have a much more of a playing for the win mentality (despite what the above suggests!) but folded as I felt that was what one was 'supposed' to do in those rather unique circumstances.
I'll be playing in the main tonight so will make sure I give my inner nit a good talking too before showtime
Craig - I found your post about our tourney hand and have now posted a reply.
gl with this quest m8
Reference the AK bubble hand I had a situation similar to that a few weeks back and I folded as there was a player on another table with around 1 BB (and away), so elected to fold. Think I actually went on to win the tournament, but wouldn't swear to it. So I would say it is a fold if there is another player still in with a micro stack, but if not I would be shoving.
Personally, I'm of the 'play ftw' mind set. Unless its a huge bubble.
Yes, we are prob getting called light as its a bh, but are we going to find a better spot to gii?
As has been mentioned, with the dynamics of a micro stack, there is an argument for MAXALLYING it and nitting up a min cash so we can DEV the win.
Fwiw, if you want to really MAXALLY it up, one should start tanking 50 off the bubble.
I read a fair bit on the forum, but don't post much. So while I'm here, vbol with your challenge this year. I'm sure with your cash pedigree you will tear it up in the tourneys.
BY THE WAY, ARE YOU DONIG THIS CHALLENGE ON A BANKROLL OR FROM A BUDGET?
PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, COMPUTER PROBS AND TECHNOPHOBE, BAD COMBO.
A couple of people have asked about bankroll. I'm very strict about keeping poker funds separate from 'real life' funds and previous successes at the tables mean I'm in the fortunate position of being very comfortably rolled when it comes to taking on this challenge - it would take a prolonged sharp downswing for that situation to change (that's fate tempted nicely then!). This is purely a profit goal/challenge as opposed to a specific bankroll builder.
Going back to the AK jam or fold dilemma, I mostly lean towards the jam side of the argument in retrospect, but I think there are merits to the nitty approach too. As an exercise in curiosity I ran some numbers on it. When we jam 6bb's from the btn, if the small blind folds the big blind needs 40% equity for their call to be profitable. If we are jamming with AKo, the big blind can (surprisingly) make a profitable call with a hand as 'bad' as 64s. Those numbers also exclude the value of any bounty which means that in reality even less equity is required by the big blind to be profitable overall here. Whilst there will of course be plenty of times we get looked up by something that we're dominating (any other Ax hand for example), it's still some interesting food for thought. Well, it is for an anorak like me anyway
Far from ramping up the work-rate, I had a very lazy and chilled night with just 4 tournaments played and no cash games (so much for the motivating diary lol). I played the main, the mini, an £11 bounty hunter and another £2.20 deepstack. The mini and the £11 bh consisted of some pretty unexciting mid-stage exits without a bounty in sight, but I did manage a more respectable 31st in the main for a small cash (just the one bounty sadly though) and a 3rd place in the £2.20 deepstack. That was my 5th final table in a £2.20 deepstack for 2018 but 3rd is the highest I've managed to finish thus far. Whilst these aren't going to make too much of a dent into the £10k target, I do have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about finally taking one of these down at some point soon! Total profit for the night was a 'must do better' £32.69.
Progress so far:
Cash: +£.0.11
MTT's: +£51.17
Rakeback: £0.00
Total: +£51.28
Love this Diary - you write so well.
Lets go back to the other night with your AKo fold on the bubble with 6bb for starters if you don't mind (I may as well throw my hat in the ring/put my neck on the line) if I'm not gonna share my opinion here (hopefully a safe place) then I'm not gonna do it anywhere, so here goes...
You are absolutely right to query this hand and it shows that you are immediately thinking along the right lines in these UNIQUE spots in tournaments. People get caught up in this "playing for the win" attitude/mentality. Applying that attitude in this specific spot is not good in my opinion because:
1) you are on the bubble with a very short stack but future game dictates that you are GUARANTEED to cash within the next orbit IF you continue to fold
2) doubling up to ~12bb at this stage in the tournament DOES NOT significantly improve your chances of winning the tournament (with so much future game still to play from this point onwards it is difficult to quantify just how much doubling up here MAY improve your chances of winning the tournament, but it is certainly NOT SIGNIFICANT when the double will still leave you considerably short of even an AVERAGE STACK with 70+ players left...
Playing for the win is all well and good (and it is how we should be approaching MTT's in general of course) but bubble play is where the lines get blurred and things change. Clear shoves/raises before and after the bubble can become clear folds on the bubble and clear folds before and after the bubble can become clear shoves/raises on the bubble in certain situations.
Bubbles usually put you in one of two positions (depending on your stack and how it measures up against EVERYONE else still in the tournament) you will usually either be in a position to THRIVE (this is where you should absolutely be taking chances to increase your stack and begin to put yourself in a better position to win the tournament by putting others' tournament lives at risk) or a position to SURVIVE. When you are clearly in a position to THRIVE that is when you should be thinking about top 3/winning the tournament but when you are not in this position you should no longer be thinking about winning the tournament as that is no longer your immediate concern.
Your stack size and how it compares to others left in the tournament AND future game scenario in this specific situation, clearly puts you in survival mode. Your goal in this specific spot is quite clearly to survive the bubble and lock up the cash- I think I might only jam AA exactly in this spot (also worth mentioning that this is one of those spots where you should be folding AA in a satellite... I still frequently see people auto-shoving AK and QQ here on the stone bubble into blinds that cover them when they have a seat GUARANTEED before the blinds reach them again
Being aware of future game scenario is so important in spots like this. Knowing that the bubble will burst before the blinds reach you again and covering the BB by even a single chip means you could now comfortably shove your AKo (and much wider, you could even argue a case for now shoving a Nash 6bb BTN range of 38% of hands... too wide for my liking though, even if "profitable", I'd probably prefer to still keep it pretty tight in this spot and shove something like 55+, A9o+, A5s+, KJs+, KQo+)
So, all that considered, I think your fold, in this very specific spot, is closer to being correct than incorrect.
Anyway, all the best with this Dues, I'm confident you will do very well indeed. I hope you give the MTT's a fair crack of the whip though... I would love you to just go for it and challenge the likes of Matt Bates and loololollo for volume and see what happens...
Thanks for taking the time to write such an awesome post. Much of this really resonates - especially the part about the likelihood of us really being able to take down a tournament when a double up still leaves us with a paltry 12bb stack and there's such a long way still to go. Compared with the merits of locking up an immediate profit whilst still retaining another shot at a double up in a few hands time, it really is a pretty close call all things considered (or should I say close fold?!). Against a prevailing wind of voices advocating the 'get it in' approach, you have at the very least made me feel like a bit less of a berk, so thanks again
This little debate has led to a number of musings on my part about all sorts of tournament related quandaries, so I've no doubt I'll be posting more about those soon. You were warned at the start not to expect riveting content people!
I had a fairly quiet time of things in tourney land on Sunday night and only played the mini plus another couple of £2.20 deepstacks (they've become a 'thing'!). I bricked all three without even a hint of a cash so -£15.40 for our troubles.
On the plus side, I did finally managed to tear myself away from staring into space for long enough to actually get my bottom sat in some cash games. I played a mixture of 20, 30 and 50nl with a tiny dash of 10nl thrown in at the end when the games were dying. The games were pretty dry frankly and very reg heavy, which is never too helpful. I think a lot of this stems from the pentagon promo with Sundays probably being the worst night of the lot as people make a final dash for points. All things considered I was pleased to book a modest win of +£67.76.
Progress so far:
Cash: +£.67.87
MTT's: +£35.88
Rakeback: £0.00
Total: +£103.75