I'm really struggling to understand some/all of the logic.
You raise fold AQ because you ''don't want to be flipping for 1/3 of your stack'', but then you open shove a small pair for 22bb in a spot whereby if you are called you are only ever flipping at best.
It seems you have quite a muddled thought process, and this in turn is leading to erratic decision making.
I think the AQ you can call or fold there, pretty close either way, but I'd lean towards a call because of the bounty element and you have a stack to take a flip with. If you go deep in a comp, you've gotta win your flips, there is no avoiding that element of MTTs. But it's always advantageous to take the flips as the bigger stack, so you're tournament life isn't reliant on spiking/swerving the community cards.
The 44 play just looks kamikaze. 22bb on Sky is plenty. What were you hoping to achieve by shoving? If it was just to pinch the blinds then you'd be much better off just min raising. We're you concerned about being jammed on and wanted to get in there first?
You've folded AQ in what is a low variance spot, then jammed 44 needlessly in a high variance spot. Just doesn't really make much sense.
I'm really struggling to understand some/all of the logic.
You raise fold AQ because you ''don't want to be flipping for 1/3 of your stack'', but then you open shove a small pair for 22bb in a spot whereby if you are called you are only ever flipping at best.
It seems you have quite a muddled thought process, and this in turn is leading to erratic decision making.
I think the AQ you can call or fold there, pretty close either way, but I'd lean towards a call because of the bounty element and you have a stack to take a flip with. If you go deep in a comp, you've gotta win your flips, there is no avoiding that element of MTTs. But it's always advantageous to take the flips as the bigger stack, so you're tournament life isn't reliant on spiking/swerving the community cards.
The 44 play just looks kamikaze. 22bb on Sky is plenty. What were you hoping to achieve by shoving? If it was just to pinch the blinds then you'd be much better off just min raising. We're you concerned about being jammed on and wanted to get in there first?
You've folded AQ in what is a low variance spot, then jammed 44 needlessly in a high variance spot. Just doesn't really make much sense.
The 44 play was my attempt at trying to adapt my game, because I was just bleeding chips by trying to be conservative (like with the AQ - where I am surprised albeit pleased you said the fold was okay). I was looking for the call with the 4's, and hoping to be ahead.
I agree it's a completely muddled thought process, and after today I feel that I have no real idea of what I should be doing at this stage (mid-late) of a tournament. I thought I did, but every hand I raise with pre-flop just seems to go wrong.
Your logic is flawed when you want % for how often you should c bet. You need to think about perceived ranges and your actual hand. You need to think how does the flop interact with the sorts of hands you would raise pre from the position you opened and the sort of hands that your opponent would call with. Think about what sorts of turn cards we want to continue barrelling on given ranges. Seems like you c bet give up loads, if players see you do that then they can call and wait for you to give up on the turn. Think about sizings for c bets, would a smaller or larger bet work better than your standard one.
Going through some of the things you say, You said a while ago about having not played a hand in a while so you played a marginal hand in the small blind. You want to be aggressive so you 3x a small pair
With the AQ hand, why do you decide that his range is pair heavy? Is he not shoving amongst other hands, KQ suited, AJ?
Your logic is flawed when you want % for how often you should c bet. You need to think about perceived ranges and your actual hand. You need to think how does the flop interact with the sorts of hands you would raise pre from the position you opened and the sort of hands that your opponent would call with. Think about what sorts of turn cards we want to continue barrelling on given ranges. Seems like you c bet give up loads, if players see you do that then they can call and wait for you to give up on the turn. Think about sizings for c bets, would a smaller or larger bet work better than your standard one.
Going through some of the things you say, You said a while ago about having not played a hand in a while so you played a marginal hand in the small blind. You want to be aggressive so you 3x a small pair
With the AQ hand, why do you decide that his range is pair heavy? Is he not shoving amongst other hands, KQ suited, AJ?
I realise there are a number of factors at play, and I do think about them as best as I can with the time available (getting better with experience, but not yet quick enough). Asking for an average % was just for comparative indicative purposes.
Yep, that's exactly what's happening. C-bet/give up too frequently, or no c-bet/fold too frequently. I am being completely exploited, and I don't know how to resolve it without risking a massive % of my stack.
For the AQ hand, he has around 17BB's, so he's not going to be playing like a madman just yet. I figure, any pocket pair, or AK, AQ, AJ. Possibly AT or KQ but seems unlikely given my raise was UTG. When I factored in that I have the ace as a blocker, his range seems very pair heavy which led me to fold.
Played the mini today, got up to 35k or so very quickly (3.5x starting stack) and plateaued for an hour. Then the blinds got too high, and the same thing happened again, my stack just got eaten up.
I know I'm being completely exploited, but I am utterly stuck about how to prevent this without making some plays that seem mental. Like betting 15% of your stack for a second barrel on the turn with nothing.
I haven't felt this disheartened for a while. Other issues I encountered thus far required small adjustments to correct. This issue right now feels like a much more fundamental problem. Maybe coaching is the answer for something like this, definitely strongly considering it. Feel free to recommend someone.
Q1 2020: Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins
Mini's £10 Bet vs @cal69 (shown 2nd below): Played: 25 - 28 Buy-Ins: £213.50 - £230.00 Cashes: £59.20 - £88.27
Random tough fold from the mini, but I think this fold was correct given her possible pre-flop calling range - and given that she was willing to risk 1/3 of her stack (if I called). This was at the time when I was struggling, being exploited, and came across as very tight too. I raised pre-flop, and bet the flop, so it should have been clear that I had hit in some way. Maybe it was a bluff on her part, but as you guys told me, it's okay to be bluffed sometimes.
I realise there are a number of factors at play, and I do think about them as best as I can with the time available (getting better with experience, but not yet quick enough). Asking for an average % was just for comparative indicative purposes.
Yep, that's exactly what's happening. C-bet/give up too frequently, or no c-bet/fold too frequently. I am being completely exploited, and I don't know how to resolve it without risking a massive % of my stack.
For the AQ hand, he has around 17BB's, so he's not going to be playing like a madman just yet. I figure, any pocket pair, or AK, AQ, AJ. Possibly AT or KQ but seems unlikely given my raise was UTG. When I factored in that I have the ace as a blocker, his range seems very pair heavy which led me to fold.
I know I'm being completely exploited, but I am utterly stuck about how to prevent this without making some plays that seem mental. Like betting 15% of your stack for a second barrel on the turn with nothing.
I haven't felt this disheartened for a while. Other issues I encountered thus far required small adjustments to correct. This issue right now feels like a much more fundamental problem. Maybe coaching is the answer for something like this, definitely strongly considering it. Feel free to recommend someone.
Don’t be disheartened, just take on board what you’ve already been told a few times. To help stop putting too much of your stack in when cbetting marginal hands you can try 1. Opening to a smaller sizing 2. Cbetting with a smaller sizing relative to pot (depending on stacks you can cbet 1/3 or even 1/4), it’s really important to learn boards though and which cards are good to barrel etc as in Melt’s analysis of an earlier hand, as on some turns you might then decide to size up 3. Tightening your preflop open range when down to around the 20bb mark (like not opening small pocket pairs from UTG for example)
Ultimately sometimes you’re going to have to risk your stack, that’s the game. Avoiding flips for 1/3 of your stack like with the AQ hand is crazy in BH formats. Don’t be results oriented and think about long term. As hhy said, any time you can go after bounties without too much damage to your stack in terms of playability you should be jumping at the chance to flip.
Don’t be too hard on yourself but maybe play less and study more for a little while.
I realise there are a number of factors at play, and I do think about them as best as I can with the time available (getting better with experience, but not yet quick enough). Asking for an average % was just for comparative indicative purposes.
Yep, that's exactly what's happening. C-bet/give up too frequently, or no c-bet/fold too frequently. I am being completely exploited, and I don't know how to resolve it without risking a massive % of my stack.
For the AQ hand, he has around 17BB's, so he's not going to be playing like a madman just yet. I figure, any pocket pair, or AK, AQ, AJ. Possibly AT or KQ but seems unlikely given my raise was UTG. When I factored in that I have the ace as a blocker, his range seems very pair heavy which led me to fold.
I know I'm being completely exploited, but I am utterly stuck about how to prevent this without making some plays that seem mental. Like betting 15% of your stack for a second barrel on the turn with nothing.
I haven't felt this disheartened for a while. Other issues I encountered thus far required small adjustments to correct. This issue right now feels like a much more fundamental problem. Maybe coaching is the answer for something like this, definitely strongly considering it. Feel free to recommend someone.
Don’t be disheartened, just take on board what you’ve already been told a few times. To help stop putting too much of your stack in when cbetting marginal hands you can try 1. Opening to a smaller sizing 2. Cbetting with a smaller sizing relative to pot (depending on stacks you can cbet 1/3 or even 1/4), it’s really important to learn boards though and which cards are good to barrel etc as in Melt’s analysis of an earlier hand, as on some turns you might then decide to size up 3. Tightening your preflop open range when down to around the 20bb mark (like not opening small pocket pairs from UTG for example)
Ultimately sometimes you’re going to have to risk your stack, that’s the game. Avoiding flips for 1/3 of your stack like with the AQ hand is crazy in BH formats. Don’t be results oriented and think about long term. As hhy said, any time you can go after bounties without too much damage to your stack in terms of playability you should be jumping at the chance to flip.
Don’t be too hard on yourself but maybe play less and study more for a little while.
A decent day without ever being spectacular. Couple of cashes including 3rd place in a £500 freezeout.
From that freezeout, how do you think I played this hand?
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
bricksru08
Small blind
50.00
50.00
10885.00
HOUNDOG88
Big blind
100.00
150.00
3278.25
Your hole cards
J
A
peter27
Raise
250.00
400.00
4366.00
westland03
Call
250.00
650.00
2760.00
SQUIRE82
Fold
Makaka
Fold
bricksru08
Call
200.00
850.00
10685.00
HOUNDOG88
Fold
Flop
3
J
3
bricksru08
Check
peter27
Bet
333.00
1183.00
4033.00
westland03
Call
333.00
1516.00
2427.00
bricksru08
Fold
Turn
K
peter27
Bet
750.00
2266.00
3283.00
westland03
All-in
2427.00
4693.00
0.00
peter27
Call
1677.00
6370.00
1606.00
peter27
Show
J
A
westland03
Show
A
2
River
J
peter27
Win
Full House, Jacks and 3s
6370.00
7976.00
Had no reads on the player, and made a standard raise pre-flop. Modest bet on the flop, I figure that would be enough to get rid of most hands that haven't hit, with the possible exception of AK - but then he would have re-raised pre. Was happy to bet the turn and simply called his shove because it didn't make too much sense to me, I was struggling to put him on a hand. Quad 3's is possible, but other than that, I was confused. Possibly A3 I suppose - but do you call the UTG raise with that? Probably not. He's unlikely to have called the flop with any king. KJ I suppose could have been part of his range (didn't think about that one at the time). It just felt a bit strange.
Q1 2020: Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins
Mini's £10 Bet vs @cal69 (shown 2nd below): Played: 28 - 28 Buy-Ins: £230.00 - £230.00 Cashes: £59.20 - £88.27
Sharkscope is annoying me at the moment. My losses on there look much bigger than they actually are because their website counts buy-ins for events I satellite into.
Sharkscope will also be showing your satellite win too So for the mtt you qualify for it will only show the satellite buy in as a loss
True, but it's just annoying that if you don't win any money in the target event, the satellite is effectively redundant on your record when it actual fact you won a seat worth xx.
When you shove to isolate, and immediately realise it's not a bounty hunter
Fortunately, I didn't get a call from wilsysir11.
Are you not shoving here as standard in any format?
Assuming no reads, no. The implication of your comment is that I should be? That blows my mind a bit.
I don't see him calling with anything worse. Why would I risk 1.8k to steal 212.5?
You are ignoring the sb but still irrelevant.
Ignoring the utg. How would you play 12bb effective with kqo? Seems a slam dunk jam. Are you min raise folding because if he shoves he must have better?
Sharkscope will also be showing your satellite win too So for the mtt you qualify for it will only show the satellite buy in as a loss
True, but it's just annoying that if you don't win any money in the target event, the satellite is effectively redundant on your record when it actual fact you won a seat worth xx.
How else would you want it tracked?
I won a seat to the main yesterday, so that'll show as +£25.80 (£33 - £7.20), I then did naff all in the main so that goes down as -£33, showing a total deficit of.....£7.20...which is correct as I played 2 comps totalling £40.20 for the price of £7.20.
I can kinda see your point but ultimately it's the only real way to account for it all.
Sharkscope will also be showing your satellite win too So for the mtt you qualify for it will only show the satellite buy in as a loss
True, but it's just annoying that if you don't win any money in the target event, the satellite is effectively redundant on your record when it actual fact you won a seat worth xx.
But then it wouldn't be calculating your satellite results correctly if it scored it as zero after the target event. £7.20 sat to £33 game, +25.80, loss in the game, -33. Net -7.20. This is the most accurate way of recording what's happened!
PS who cares what Sharkscope shows anyway, the results are the results.
...
You want to be shoving KQ on a 12bb BB because it's +EV.
%of time you're not called x (1.5bb) +% of time you're called and you win x (12bb) -% of time you're called and you lose x (12bb)
Plug some assumptions in that and see what you see.
In terms of that KQo hand, I do think of it in terms of blinds, even though I didn't write it that way.
I have been mulling over what you guys said but risking around 12BB's to win under 2BB's seems mad in my mind without reads. What would I usually do? Raise to 330, and reluctantly call a shove - but that call is very borderline and could easily be a fold depending on mindset.
I suppose I do get the logic that if I am willing to call, then I should just shove straight away. It just seems like a huge risk with very little reward - especially when I'm struggling to hold on to chips at that stage of a tournament as it is.
Just because I'm struggling to get my head around that concept though, doesn't mean I'm not taking the advice on board by the way. I made that play twice today. One pot win, one pot loss.
%of time you're not called x (1.5bb) +% of time you're called and you win x (12bb) -% of time you're called and you lose x (12bb)
Hmm. I would estimate 80% of the time not called, 5% called and win, 15% called and lose. That would give an answer of exactly 0. I'm not sure what this equation is trying to show, what's the output?
As for the sharkscope discussion, I get the way it works it out. I just find it personally annoying that it says I lost £33 in a main event, when actually I didn't lose anything.
Sharkscope is largely irrelevant, but it's also one of the very limited ways to actually track performance. Yep, it's terrible because of sample size, but it some data to work with which is better than nothing. I have shared this frustration before but until I play a "large sample size" (whatever that actually means, 50k games?) then it's nearly impossible to determine if I am actually improving or not. I certainly feel like I am, but who knows. My cash rate has definitely improved drastically.
Comments
You raise fold AQ because you ''don't want to be flipping for 1/3 of your stack'', but then you open shove a small pair for 22bb in a spot whereby if you are called you are only ever flipping at best.
It seems you have quite a muddled thought process, and this in turn is leading to erratic decision making.
I think the AQ you can call or fold there, pretty close either way, but I'd lean towards a call because of the bounty element and you have a stack to take a flip with.
If you go deep in a comp, you've gotta win your flips, there is no avoiding that element of MTTs. But it's always advantageous to take the flips as the bigger stack, so you're tournament life isn't reliant on spiking/swerving the community cards.
The 44 play just looks kamikaze. 22bb on Sky is plenty.
What were you hoping to achieve by shoving? If it was just to pinch the blinds then you'd be much better off just min raising. We're you concerned about being jammed on and wanted to get in there first?
You've folded AQ in what is a low variance spot, then jammed 44 needlessly in a high variance spot. Just doesn't really make much sense.
I agree it's a completely muddled thought process, and after today I feel that I have no real idea of what I should be doing at this stage (mid-late) of a tournament. I thought I did, but every hand I raise with pre-flop just seems to go wrong.
Think about what sorts of turn cards we want to continue barrelling on given ranges. Seems like you c bet give up loads, if players see you do that then they can call and wait for you to give up on the turn.
Think about sizings for c bets, would a smaller or larger bet work better than your standard one.
Going through some of the things you say,
You said a while ago about having not played a hand in a while so you played a marginal hand in the small blind.
You want to be aggressive so you 3x a small pair
With the AQ hand, why do you decide that his range is pair heavy? Is he not shoving amongst other hands, KQ suited, AJ?
Yep, that's exactly what's happening. C-bet/give up too frequently, or no c-bet/fold too frequently. I am being completely exploited, and I don't know how to resolve it without risking a massive % of my stack.
For the AQ hand, he has around 17BB's, so he's not going to be playing like a madman just yet. I figure, any pocket pair, or AK, AQ, AJ. Possibly AT or KQ but seems unlikely given my raise was UTG. When I factored in that I have the ace as a blocker, his range seems very pair heavy which led me to fold.
I know I'm being completely exploited, but I am utterly stuck about how to prevent this without making some plays that seem mental. Like betting 15% of your stack for a second barrel on the turn with nothing.
I haven't felt this disheartened for a while. Other issues I encountered thus far required small adjustments to correct. This issue right now feels like a much more fundamental problem. Maybe coaching is the answer for something like this, definitely strongly considering it. Feel free to recommend someone.
Q1 2020:
Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins
Q2 2020:
Tournaments: 69
Buy-Ins: £512.44
Cashes: £669.22
FT's: 13
Wins: 3
Mini's £10 Bet vs @cal69 (shown 2nd below):
Played: 25 - 28
Buy-Ins: £213.50 - £230.00
Cashes: £59.20 - £88.27
Random tough fold from the mini, but I think this fold was correct given her possible pre-flop calling range - and given that she was willing to risk 1/3 of her stack (if I called). This was at the time when I was struggling, being exploited, and came across as very tight too. I raised pre-flop, and bet the flop, so it should have been clear that I had hit in some way. Maybe it was a bluff on her part, but as you guys told me, it's okay to be bluffed sometimes.
1. Opening to a smaller sizing
2. Cbetting with a smaller sizing relative to pot (depending on stacks you can cbet 1/3 or even 1/4), it’s really important to learn boards though and which cards are good to barrel etc as in Melt’s analysis of an earlier hand, as on some turns you might then decide to size up
3. Tightening your preflop open range when down to around the 20bb mark (like not opening small pocket pairs from UTG for example)
Ultimately sometimes you’re going to have to risk your stack, that’s the game. Avoiding flips for 1/3 of your stack like with the AQ hand is crazy in BH formats. Don’t be results oriented and think about long term. As hhy said, any time you can go after bounties without too much damage to your stack in terms of playability you should be jumping at the chance to flip.
Don’t be too hard on yourself but maybe play less and study more for a little while.
From that freezeout, how do you think I played this hand?
Q1 2020:
Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins
Q2 2020:
Tournaments: 76
Buy-Ins: £572.94
Cashes: £735.31
FT's: 14
Wins: 3
Mini's £10 Bet vs @cal69 (shown 2nd below):
Played: 27 - 28
Buy-Ins: £224.50 - £230.00
Cashes: £59.20 - £88.27
Fortunately, I didn't get a call from wilsysir11.
Online: Buy-Ins: £566.74 / loss of £58.92 from 83 MTT's / 7 FT's / 4 Wins
Live: Buy-Ins: £380.00 / loss of £280.00 from 7 MTT's / 0 FT's / 0 Wins
Q2 2020:
Tournaments: 84
Buy-Ins: £618.78
Cashes: £816.92
FT's: 16
Wins: 4
Mini's £10 Bet vs @cal69 (shown 2nd below):
Played: 28 - 28
Buy-Ins: £230.00 - £230.00
Cashes: £59.20 - £88.27
Sharkscope is annoying me at the moment. My losses on there look much bigger than they actually are because their website counts buy-ins for events I satellite into.
What a hand this was from earlier
So for the mtt you qualify for it will only show the satellite buy in as a loss
I don't see him calling with anything worse. Why would I risk 1.8k to steal 212.5?
Ignoring the utg. How would you play 12bb effective with kqo? Seems a slam dunk jam. Are you min raise folding because if he shoves he must have better?
I won a seat to the main yesterday, so that'll show as +£25.80 (£33 - £7.20), I then did naff all in the main so that goes down as -£33, showing a total deficit of.....£7.20...which is correct as I played 2 comps totalling £40.20 for the price of £7.20.
I can kinda see your point but ultimately it's the only real way to account for it all.
KQ is a pretty clear shove.
PS who cares what Sharkscope shows anyway, the results are the results.
...
You want to be shoving KQ on a 12bb BB because it's +EV.
%of time you're not called x (1.5bb)
+% of time you're called and you win x (12bb)
-% of time you're called and you lose x (12bb)
Plug some assumptions in that and see what you see.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=shove+fold+for+short+stacks+in+mtts
In terms of that KQo hand, I do think of it in terms of blinds, even though I didn't write it that way.
I have been mulling over what you guys said but risking around 12BB's to win under 2BB's seems mad in my mind without reads. What would I usually do? Raise to 330, and reluctantly call a shove - but that call is very borderline and could easily be a fold depending on mindset.
I suppose I do get the logic that if I am willing to call, then I should just shove straight away. It just seems like a huge risk with very little reward - especially when I'm struggling to hold on to chips at that stage of a tournament as it is.
Just because I'm struggling to get my head around that concept though, doesn't mean I'm not taking the advice on board by the way. I made that play twice today. One pot win, one pot loss. Hmm. I would estimate 80% of the time not called, 5% called and win, 15% called and lose. That would give an answer of exactly 0. I'm not sure what this equation is trying to show, what's the output?
As for the sharkscope discussion, I get the way it works it out. I just find it personally annoying that it says I lost £33 in a main event, when actually I didn't lose anything.
Sharkscope is largely irrelevant, but it's also one of the very limited ways to actually track performance. Yep, it's terrible because of sample size, but it some data to work with which is better than nothing. I have shared this frustration before but until I play a "large sample size" (whatever that actually means, 50k games?) then it's nearly impossible to determine if I am actually improving or not. I certainly feel like I am, but who knows. My cash rate has definitely improved drastically.