Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
The argument gets more ridiculous.
Just the thought that a Tory Government could introduce legislation binding any future Labour Governments for ever is absolute fantasy.
If one party could introduce any legislation forever, would mean that there would be no point in having General Elections, and we clearly couldn't consider ourselves a democracy.
What would be the point in electing a Government that was in the position of having had all their policies decided by previous Governments.
Are you really suggesting that people think this could happen?
How could you criticise anyone for making a claim that wasn't untrue?
We have a permanent opt out.
To join the Euro would have required one of the two main parties to have included it in their manifesto, and a majority voting for them. This of course could have happened in the future, as could lots of equally unlikely other things.
How could you dismiss any claim, however unlikely, just because it could happen in the next 200 years.
I think that if either party stood on joining the Euro they would be slaughtered in a General Election.
I think the real point was that we couldn't be forced to join the Eurozone.
I don't think you can make a coherent argument by quoting what some people thought about a particular statement, when the statement is absolutely true. You cant say even though a statement is true some people might have drawn conclusions that might not have been. This has been a feature of the referendum process, where many people are suggesting what the leave side voted for. The fact that they all have different opinions is proof that they cant all be correct.
Governments decide everything except in the case of a referendum. We are a Parliamentary Democracy.
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Cannot be forced to is not the same as decides to . Any lawyers around that can point that out to him , please ? I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
Lets also look at a couple of the other leaflet points from this article you wanted to avoid mentioning , whilst we are here >>>>
The claim: Over three million UK jobs are linked to exports to the EU
Reality Check verdict: The methodology is suspect. The Treasury worked out what proportion of the country's total economic output is made up of exports to the EU. Then it calculated that proportion of the UK labour force. And that's the answer!
The claim: Less than 8% of EU exports come to the UK while 44% of UK exports go to the EU.
Reality Check verdict: That's true, although looking in percentage terms makes UK trade look less important to the EU. In cash terms, the UK in 2014 exported £227bn worth of goods and services to other EU countries and imported £288bn from them, which makes the UK look like a much more important customer for the rest of the EU.
The claim: EU co-operation makes it easier to keep criminals and terrorists out of the UK.
Reality Check verdict: Tricky - there are arguments on both sides, but a former head of MI6 says the co-operation would continue even if the UK left the EU
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Cannot be forced to is not the same as decides to . Any lawyers around that can point that out to him , please ? I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
Yawn. The post was from the reality check team on the BBC, rather than my opinion. His credentials are below. He just happens to agree with me, rather than you
From the original article I quoted and linked to :
Incorrect claim: The UK will not be part of further European political integration
"Also this was effectively a promise that future governments would not make the UK be part of further “European political integration”. It is completely wrong to promise something on behalf of a future government. This again was a completely empty promise that cannot be guaranteed in any way.
It is certain, as it is written into treaties that the UK has signed, that the UK will be part of “further European political integration” if we had stayed in the EU. No permanent exemptions to these treaties have been signed and no promise has even been made by the EU that they ever will be. The only guaranteed way to avoid “further European political integration” is to leave the EU."
Lets also look at a couple of the other leaflet points from this article you wanted to avoid mentioning , whilst we are here >>>>
The claim: Over three million UK jobs are linked to exports to the EU
Reality Check verdict: The methodology is suspect. The Treasury worked out what proportion of the country's total economic output is made up of exports to the EU. Then it calculated that proportion of the UK labour force. And that's the answer!
So let me just get this straight. The reality check is wrong when it supports my argument, but you want to post it when it when it suits you? Suspect, but not necessarily incorrect.
The claim: Less than 8% of EU exports come to the UK while 44% of UK exports go to the EU.
Reality Check verdict: That's true, although looking in percentage terms makes UK trade look less important to the EU. In cash terms, the UK in 2014 exported £227bn worth of goods and services to other EU countries and imported £288bn from them, which makes the UK look like a much more important customer for the rest of the EU.
The figures are true, and the statement is correct.
The claim: EU co-operation makes it easier to keep criminals and terrorists out of the UK.
Reality Check verdict: Tricky - there are arguments on both sides, but a former head of MI6 says the co-operation would continue even if the UK left the EU
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Cannot be forced to is not the same as decides to . Any lawyers around that can point that out to him , please ? I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Cannot be forced to is not the same as decides to . Any lawyers around that can point that out to him , please ? I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
We would only join if we wanted to.
Got to say, the whole pound versus euro debate becomes less important with every passing year. Increasingly, the currency itself is becoming obsolete due to paperless transactions.
The other thing that always amuses me is the "British" pounds and ounces-the full title of that pound is the avoirdupois pound-it is French...
From the original article I quoted and linked to :
Incorrect claim: The UK will not be part of further European political integration
"Also this was effectively a promise that future governments would not make the UK be part of further “European political integration”. It is completely wrong to promise something on behalf of a future government. This again was a completely empty promise that cannot be guaranteed in any way.
It is certain, as it is written into treaties that the UK has signed, that the UK will be part of “further European political integration” if we had stayed in the EU. No permanent exemptions to these treaties have been signed and no promise has even been made by the EU that they ever will be. The only guaranteed way to avoid “further European political integration” is to leave the EU."
The UK’s ‘special status’ in a reformed EU The claim The UK has resisted full integration into the EU, neglecting to join the euro, keeping its border controls, avoiding deeper European political integration, and introducing “tough new restrictions on access to our welfare system” for new EU migrants. The facts This is fairly uncontroversial, and based on political decisions, though of course future governments could theoretically reverse those decisions. Keeping the pound has been been the dominant orthodoxy ever since Gordon Brown overruled a more euro-keen Tony Blair in the early 2000s. Even before then, the UK opted out of the EU’s Schengen deal on open internal borders in the 1980s. Whether or not the UK’s welfare restrictions on new EU arrivals are tough depends on opinion. But Cameron certainly achieved some of what he sought in his “emergency brake” on in-work benefits at a summit of European leaders in February. At the same time, he achieved tougher wording on Britain’s exclusion from any talk of closer political union.
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Cannot be forced to is not the same as decides to . Any lawyers around that can point that out to him , please ? I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Cannot be forced to is not the same as decides to . Any lawyers around that can point that out to him , please ? I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
Ok so onto the leaflet and point 1 ....The promise not to join the euro. The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't . The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
Surely the point is that we have the choice. No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything. Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty. Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots. The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime. A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply. For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro. This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future. Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
This is exactly what the leaflet said in regards to joining the Euro :
The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU: • we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it . To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave . If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for . On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
I rest my case.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
Cannot be forced to is not the same as decides to . Any lawyers around that can point that out to him , please ? I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
EssexPhil is a lawyer.
You both need a holiday
Yes , but preferably not together and in different continents
Comments
The article says , misleading claim and very likely incorrect .
As a result of signing the maastricht treaty we gained a permanent opt out of joining the Euro. That's not to say we couldn't .
The government at the time could only promise and keep that promise, that we won't join the EU for their period of governance. The issue of joining the euro has been revisited several times and a current government could not guarantee that subsequent ones wouldn't also revisit it .
So in summary , I think the article makes a fair point , but on the other hand policies and promises get broken all the time and the usual reason given is " the situation has changed considerably " . As the word naive has been used , it would be very naive for anyone to think if we stayed in the EU , that we would never join the euro .
No Government is allowed to tie the hands of any future Government on anything.
Nobody can really argue about what might happen in the future with any certainty.
Although if this Government decided to join the Euro, there would be riots.
The British people are proud of the pound, and I couldn't see this ever changing, particularly in my lifetime.
A more important point is that if we left, and rejoined in the future many of our current conditions, and rebate etc may well not apply.
For instance all new members after 2020 must join the Euro.
This in itself would make rejoining very difficult, particularly in the fairly near future.
Therefore, if leaving proves to be as damaging as many people think, the way back would be extremely difficult. So having made our bed, we would be forced to lie in it.
It seems to be a ridiculous argument.
To claim that the promise that we wouldn't join the Euro was misleading, when we haven't.
All any Prime Minister can do is make promises on behalf of the current Government. He promised, and we didn't join the Euro, how could that be misleading.
Incidentally, I worked in Portugal in 2001, and used to get 1.66 euro to the pound, today its around 1.10. So they are getting much more for their Euros than they used to.
There was a good 3 part documentary on the telly, part 2 was this week, its about how we got to where we are today. Inside Europe. Ten Years of Turmoil.
The UK has secured a special
status in a reformed EU:
• we will not join the euro
Now rightly or wrongly , a lot of people would have read that and made the assumption that it effectively meant future governments will not make the uk join the Euro . You can argue all you like how that isn't the case , but thats how a lot of people would have understood it .
To say the promise wasn't misleading because we haven't , is just silly beyond words ...of course we haven't because apart from anything else we voted leave .
If you were a remain voter and one of the main reasons you voted that way was because of a commitment not to join the Euro , and 2 years down the line ( assuming remain won the referendum) the government decided that we had met the 5 criteria and we would be joining the Euro , you would all be bleating about how that wasn't what you voted for .
On to the bit about the rioting in the streets , I find it strange you would be of this opinion regarding adopting the Euro , but have basically poo pooed the idea that a 2nd referendum would also have the same effect.
As an addendum also note the wording on the leaflet , it says " the UK " , not this government in particular.
Just the thought that a Tory Government could introduce legislation binding any future Labour Governments for ever is absolute fantasy.
If one party could introduce any legislation forever, would mean that there would be no point in having General Elections, and we clearly couldn't consider ourselves a democracy.
What would be the point in electing a Government that was in the position of having had all their policies decided by previous Governments.
Are you really suggesting that people think this could happen?
How could you criticise anyone for making a claim that wasn't untrue?
We have a permanent opt out.
To join the Euro would have required one of the two main parties to have included it in their manifesto, and a majority voting for them. This of course could have happened in the future, as could lots of equally unlikely other things.
How could you dismiss any claim, however unlikely, just because it could happen in the next 200 years.
I think that if either party stood on joining the Euro they would be slaughtered in a General Election.
I think the real point was that we couldn't be forced to join the Eurozone.
I don't think you can make a coherent argument by quoting what some people thought about a particular statement, when the statement is absolutely true. You cant say even though a statement is true some people might have drawn conclusions that might not have been.
This has been a feature of the referendum process, where many people are suggesting what the leave side voted for. The fact that they all have different opinions is proof that they cant all be correct.
Governments decide everything except in the case of a referendum. We are a Parliamentary Democracy.
Reality Check: The government's referendum leaflet
The claim: We will not join the euro
Reality Check verdict: This is true - the UK secured an opt-out, which is written into EU law. The UK cannot be forced to adopt the single currency.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35990076
I'm getting a bit worried about you Haysie , think you need a holiday
The claim: Over three million UK jobs are linked to exports to the EU
Reality Check verdict: The methodology is suspect. The Treasury worked out what proportion of the country's total economic output is made up of exports to the EU. Then it calculated that proportion of the UK labour force. And that's the answer!
Reality Check verdict: That's true, although looking in percentage terms makes UK trade look less important to the EU. In cash terms, the UK in 2014 exported £227bn worth of goods and services to other EU countries and imported £288bn from them, which makes the UK look like a much more important customer for the rest of the EU.
Reality Check verdict: Tricky - there are arguments on both sides, but a former head of MI6 says the co-operation would continue even if the UK left the EU
The post was from the reality check team on the BBC, rather than my opinion.
His credentials are below.
He just happens to agree with me, rather than you
https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthony-reuben-29104437/?locale=de_DE
Incorrect claim: The UK will not be part of further European political integration
"Also this was effectively a promise that future governments would not make the UK be part of further “European political integration”. It is completely wrong to promise something on behalf of a future government. This again was a completely empty promise that cannot be guaranteed in any way.
It is certain, as it is written into treaties that the UK has signed, that the UK will be part of “further European political integration” if we had stayed in the EU. No permanent exemptions to these treaties have been signed and no promise has even been made by the EU that they ever will be. The only guaranteed way to avoid “further European political integration” is to leave the EU."
The reality check is wrong when it supports my argument, but you want to post it when it when it suits you?
Suspect, but not necessarily incorrect.
The figures are true, and the statement is correct.
The other thing that always amuses me is the "British" pounds and ounces-the full title of that pound is the avoirdupois pound-it is French...
The claim The UK has resisted full integration into the EU, neglecting to join the euro, keeping its border controls, avoiding deeper European political integration, and introducing “tough new restrictions on access to our welfare system” for new EU migrants.
The facts This is fairly uncontroversial, and based on political decisions, though of course future governments could theoretically reverse those decisions. Keeping the pound has been been the dominant orthodoxy ever since Gordon Brown overruled a more euro-keen Tony Blair in the early 2000s. Even before then, the UK opted out of the EU’s Schengen deal on open internal borders in the 1980s.
Whether or not the UK’s welfare restrictions on new EU arrivals are tough depends on opinion. But Cameron certainly achieved some of what he sought in his “emergency brake” on in-work benefits at a summit of European leaders in February. At the same time, he achieved tougher wording on Britain’s exclusion from any talk of closer political union.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/07/governments-pro-eu-leaflet-claims-booklet-uk-member