Whole hand probably changes if you'd just raised pre.
Big mistake to limp in, and it cost you your MTT life.
Yea , that seems to be the general consensus and it will obv be right . But lets ask everyone , if you were in the villains shoes , would you have called my all in on the turn with the hand he had ? And if you were him , what would you have put me on ?
Whole hand probably changes if you'd just raised pre.
Big mistake to limp in, and it cost you your MTT life.
Yea , that seems to be the general consensus and it will obv be right . But lets ask everyone , if you were in the villains shoes , would you have called my all in on the turn with the hand he had ? And if you were him , what would you have put me on ?
I've seen worse calls but I don't think it's a great spot to bet call off with just one card to come. Much better to be getting your chips in first in these situations when you have a draw.
No idea what they might put you on, but if they think that both their over cards are live along with the broadway draw, it's perhaps not too bad to go for a double or bust given that we're well off the money. It's pure gamble calling off there though.
All that is kinda irrelevant ultimately though. Only thing we can control is how we play a hand. I'd say there is one clear mistake in the hand, and it would be that limp in pre flop.
Whole hand probably changes if you'd just raised pre.
Big mistake to limp in, and it cost you your MTT life.
Yea , that seems to be the general consensus and it will obv be right . But lets ask everyone , if you were in the villains shoes , would you have called my all in on the turn with the hand he had ? And if you were him , what would you have put me on ?
I've seen worse calls but I don't think it's a great spot to bet call off with just one card to come. Much better to be getting your chips in first in these situations when you have a draw.
No idea what they might put you on, but if they think that both their over cards are live along with the broadway draw, it's perhaps not too bad to go for a double or bust given that we're well off the money. It's pure gamble calling off there though.
All that is kinda irrelevant ultimately though. Only thing we can control is how we play a hand. I'd say there is one clear mistake in the hand, and it would be that limp in pre flop.
Yep , and if I had a £1 for every time I'd heard @Tikay10 say on skypoker tv " don't limp in" ...very annoying conclusion to the tournament from me . Appreciate your thoughts on it.
I often see people saying things like "well I limped because I wanted to see a flop as cheaply as possible". They then end up facing an isolation raise, investing even more chips with a call and playing a much larger pot (and usually out of position) than would have likely been the case if they had just raised first in. Or they start a chain of limps and then have absolutely no idea how strong top pair is/what to stack off with in a 4 or 5 way pot where the blinds can have infinite 2 pair combo's and trips and invisible straights etc etc…
Contrary to what habitual limpers believe (not suggesting that you are a habitual limper @dobiesdraw , maybe you raise first in more than you limp in generally, I don't know) the game is so much easier and safer when you raise first in in almost every instance you want to play your hand (there are some exceptions/situations when limping is a viable option and sometimes when it is optimal, but these instances are relatively rare or sometimes part of a more complex strategy in certain scenarios than we need to worry about for the purposes of analysing this hand or our approach to the game in general). When we raise first in we usually:
- know what our range of hands is from this position and how strong our actual holding is in relation to all the hands we open raise with - thin the field (ie, get to play our hand versus fewer opponents than if we had limped which is already a huge plus) - get a rough idea of what our opponents range of hands might be depending on whether they call or re-raise and from what position
And that's just pre-flop.
Post flop we are going to be playing against fewer opponents (usually) and we are going to be able to much more confidently play our range (or just our specific holding in that instance if we want to keep it simple) against our opponents likely range (or their likely holdings). It will be much clearer to us how many chips we want to invest and on how many streets against fewer opponents and when ranges are more clearly defined...
You will still get donked by players who might still show up with some unlikely hands post flop that should have been folding to your open raise (and therefore you can't give them credit for having/don't even consider) but it will be far less frequent than when we open limp.
This is basically the message we've been trying to get across to @misterpj as well. It's all good natured and trying to give helpful advice.
We are also better able to extract the full value from our hand if we open with a bet.
If we limp UTG with, say, 8-8, & get 3 callers and a flop with 2 overs, we don't have a clue where we are. And more often than not we lose a bunch, or give up to positional pressure when we might well be ahead. It just makes everything more difficult.
A good exercise (imo) is to play a few MTT's or SNG's where we ONLY raise or fold, & never limp. It makes a remarkable difference, & it will soon become natural.
Great post by @MynaFrett The limp and see a flop mentality generally means you need to connect with flops. If you make an aggressive play pre you can often win with a c bet even if you haven't missed. Also if a player is generally passive, limps pre then rarely explodes to life post flop your opponents can make tighter folds when they want to get money in the pot.
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Big mistake to limp in, and it cost you your MTT life.
But lets ask everyone , if you were in the villains shoes , would you have called my all in on the turn with the hand he had ? And if you were him , what would you have put me on ?
No idea what they might put you on, but if they think that both their over cards are live along with the broadway draw, it's perhaps not too bad to go for a double or bust given that we're well off the money. It's pure gamble calling off there though.
All that is kinda irrelevant ultimately though. Only thing we can control is how we play a hand. I'd say there is one clear mistake in the hand, and it would be that limp in pre flop.
Appreciate your thoughts on it.
Contrary to what habitual limpers believe (not suggesting that you are a habitual limper @dobiesdraw , maybe you raise first in more than you limp in generally, I don't know) the game is so much easier and safer when you raise first in in almost every instance you want to play your hand (there are some exceptions/situations when limping is a viable option and sometimes when it is optimal, but these instances are relatively rare or sometimes part of a more complex strategy in certain scenarios than we need to worry about for the purposes of analysing this hand or our approach to the game in general).
When we raise first in we usually:
- know what our range of hands is from this position and how strong our actual holding is in relation to all the hands we open raise with
- thin the field (ie, get to play our hand versus fewer opponents than if we had limped which is already a huge plus)
- get a rough idea of what our opponents range of hands might be depending on whether they call or re-raise and from what position
And that's just pre-flop.
Post flop we are going to be playing against fewer opponents (usually) and we are going to be able to much more confidently play our range (or just our specific holding in that instance if we want to keep it simple) against our opponents likely range (or their likely holdings). It will be much clearer to us how many chips we want to invest and on how many streets against fewer opponents and when ranges are more clearly defined...
You will still get donked by players who might still show up with some unlikely hands post flop that should have been folding to your open raise (and therefore you can't give them credit for having/don't even consider) but it will be far less frequent than when we open limp.
This is basically the message we've been trying to get across to @misterpj as well. It's all good natured and trying to give helpful advice.
We are also better able to extract the full value from our hand if we open with a bet.
If we limp UTG with, say, 8-8, & get 3 callers and a flop with 2 overs, we don't have a clue where we are. And more often than not we lose a bunch, or give up to positional pressure when we might well be ahead. It just makes everything more difficult.
A good exercise (imo) is to play a few MTT's or SNG's where we ONLY raise or fold, & never limp. It makes a remarkable difference, & it will soon become natural.
The limp and see a flop mentality generally means you need to connect with flops. If you make an aggressive play pre you can often win with a c bet even if you haven't missed. Also if a player is generally passive, limps pre then rarely explodes to life post flop your opponents can make tighter folds when they want to get money in the pot.