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Racism.

HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
The above topic has been discussed on a number of threads, and probably warrants a dedicated thread.

The George Floyd murder was despicable.
The officer responsible is clearly evil.
I was horrified as he appeared to shift his weight to increase the pain he was inflicting on his victim.
I think the authorities may have lessened the reaction by immediately charging those involved.
Was there really any doubt that charges should follow?
The USA seem slow to learn any lessons.
Other examples are too common to list.
It only took a couple of days for another victim to emerge.

I think that racism is more about hearts and minds, than legislation.
Legislation may well curtail overt racism, but does nothing to change peoples mindset.

I was just reading the latest John Grisham book in which he points out that anti-segregation legislation has merely meant the removal of signs, and that it still exists, where black people are unwelcome in white bars and vice versa.
So the legislation has outlawed overt racism, but not the existence of it.

During my lifetime "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs." signs were commonly displayed in guest houses, in this country.
The legislation making these signs illegal will have done nothing to alter the mindset of the proprietors.
Excuses can easily be found to avoid letting rooms to those that they may wish to discourage.

Legislation prohibiting manufacturers from displaying gollys on jam jars, or reviewing rice crispy boxes will have done little to further the cause.

I think some areas are difficult.
Many people that consider themselves patriotic feel that they deserve preferential treatment compared to an immigrant.
In the same way that someone who has worked for a company for 40 years should receive more rights than someone that has worked there for 5 minutes.

In my youth there was a standard response to anyone that claimed not to be racist and it was, so you wouldn't mind if your sister married one?
Many people that claimed not to be racist struggled with the question.
Maybe if you would truly celebrate your sister/daughter marrying a member of an ethic minority, then you could really consider yourself not racist.

Many thousands of people that are anti-immigration, and racist will have ironically have had their lives saved by those they object to that are working in the NHS.


Disgraced ex-Labour MP Fiona Onasanya slams Kellogg's for using a monkey as the mascot for 'brown' Coco Pops but 'three white boys' on Rice Krispies




Coco Pops' trademark monkey mascot has come under suspicion from disgraced former Labour MP Fiona Onasanya (pictured left). Ms Onasanya, who was jailed for three months in January 2019 after she was convicted of lying to police about a speeding ticket, says that there is little difference between Coco Pops and sister cereal brand Rice Krispies beyond their colour and flavour. The former Peterborough MP revealed she has emailed Kellogg's UK office for clarification on why Rice Krispies have 'three white boys' as a mascot whereas chocolate-flavoured Coco Pops is represented by a monkey. Pictured right: The Coco Pops mascot on the front of a box. Inset: Ms Onasanya's tweet.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
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Comments

  • cenachavcenachav Member Posts: 2,633
    As a white man, I can't claim to of ever experienced racism to myself. I will never know how it feels to be discriminated against because of the colour of my skin, nor will I ever be able to spot everything that is potentially racist around me because I've grown up with it and it will just seem normal to me. I don't think that it is up to me either to decide what is and isn't racist. I will always take my lead on that from the PoC that it effects.

    My ex wife comes from an Indian background, her parents were born in Punjabi. She was born in Bedford which makes her as British as I am (my dad is Austrian). This also makes my two girls half Indian. I would love to say that they have encountered no racism. I can't. I'm also sure they will in the future too which makes me so sad, not just for them but for our country too. My Eldest, S, is fluent in sarcasm so she uses that and just makes fun of them. My youngest, J, is slightly different. Just before lockdown, she was at a local playground with some of her friends and an older girl got into an argument with them. She called J's mum the N word. She then left quickly with blood all over her face with a suspected broken nose. J doesn't like racists.
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 964
    edited June 16
    The George Floyd incident

    Had watched a small portion of the video and was sick to the pit of my stomach. On the video it was subtitled that the cop in question held him in the position for 9 minutes. That poor man was saying he couldn't breathe. That cop should be charged with at least manslaughter if not murder. :(

    Wish I had not seen it in a way as that will stay with me for a bit. Cannot understand how he could not have been restrained by another method.

    Cammy
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    Cammykaze said:

    The George Floyd incident

    Had watched a small portion of the video and was sick to the pit of my stomach. On the video it was subtitled that the cop in question held him in the position for 9 minutes. That poor man was saying he couldn't breathe. That cop should be charged with at least manslaughter if not murder. :(

    Wish I had not seen it in a way as that will stay with me for a bit. Cannot understand how he could not have been restrained by another method.

    Cammy

    It was absolutely shocking.
    Charges should never have been in doubt.
    What made the public reaction worse was the initial delay in charging anyone.
    A further delay in charging the others that stood by and did nothing.
    Followed by another delay in upping the charges against the murderer.
    Protect and Serve?
    I don't think so.
  • stokefcstokefc Member Posts: 5,096
    as a white man i have been racially abused and threatened with my life just for being in the wrong place , i left quickly
  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 1,282
    Every culture and every race has its bigots and idiots.

    Laws and penalties will not alter discrimination, if they worked we would have no crime.

    Only education and intergration will succeed in that.
  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 7,496
    I have a couple of opinions on the recent events:

    1. People seem to be trying to find racism where imo it simply does not exist - the Coco Pops issue for example, seriously?
    2. Racism works both ways, fighting racism by being racist yourself defeats the whole purpose - Anthony Joshua's recent remarks being a prime example.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 2,930

    Some people are now looking to find racism in everything,which then undermines the whole purpose of raising issues of the genuine cases.
  • stokefcstokefc Member Posts: 5,096
    I was working in west London and was digging in Willesden it was just after the 86 world cup
    Went to a pub with a union Jack t-shirt on, England fans used to fly the union flag back then rather than the st George cross
    I was asked to leave but I already bought a pint, it was very uncomfortable in that pub but I finished me pint while everyone was looking at me and the pub was very quiet while I was there, I left sharpish
  • madprofmadprof Member Posts: 2,992
    stokefc said:

    as a white man i have been racially abused and threatened with my life just for being in the wrong place , i left quickly

    I can’t stand any forms of discrimination..oh apart from being stokecityist 🤪

    Seriously George Floyd’s treatment is regretfully the tip of the iceberg...
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 964
    HAYSIE said:

    Cammykaze said:

    The George Floyd incident

    Had watched a small portion of the video and was sick to the pit of my stomach. On the video it was subtitled that the cop in question held him in the position for 9 minutes. That poor man was saying he couldn't breathe. That cop should be charged with at least manslaughter if not murder. :(

    Wish I had not seen it in a way as that will stay with me for a bit. Cannot understand how he could not have been restrained by another method.

    Cammy

    It was absolutely shocking.
    Charges should never have been in doubt.
    What made the public reaction worse was the initial delay in charging anyone.
    A further delay in charging the others that stood by and did nothing.
    Followed by another delay in upping the charges against the murderer.
    Protect and Serve?
    I don't think so.
    I have not seen the whole video. Would find it hard to stand by and say or do nothing if I heard som
    waller02 said:

    I have a couple of opinions on the recent events:

    1. People seem to be trying to find racism where imo it simply does not exist - the Coco Pops issue for example, seriously?
    2. Racism works both ways, fighting racism by being racist yourself defeats the whole purpose - Anthony Joshua's recent remarks being a prime example.

    Point 1. 100% and its an attack on free speech or to curtail it in my view. PC culture at its very worse, yuck!
    Point 2. AJ seems a good guy however a bit bland and I reckon will go with what he is pushed to do maybe with the odd remarks.
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 964
    Prior to the thread and before the BLM type movements kicked into high gear I thought John Barnes had some interesting things to say about what he deems racist or not.

    He had it a load worse than 90% of these protesters.

    Not buying into the trap of taking on the emotion and being offended on behalf of others wishing to see offense wherever they look.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    Cammykaze said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Cammykaze said:

    The George Floyd incident

    Had watched a small portion of the video and was sick to the pit of my stomach. On the video it was subtitled that the cop in question held him in the position for 9 minutes. That poor man was saying he couldn't breathe. That cop should be charged with at least manslaughter if not murder. :(

    Wish I had not seen it in a way as that will stay with me for a bit. Cannot understand how he could not have been restrained by another method.

    Cammy

    It was absolutely shocking.
    Charges should never have been in doubt.
    What made the public reaction worse was the initial delay in charging anyone.
    A further delay in charging the others that stood by and did nothing.
    Followed by another delay in upping the charges against the murderer.
    Protect and Serve?
    I don't think so.
    I have not seen the whole video. Would find it hard to stand by and say or do nothing if I heard som
    waller02 said:

    I have a couple of opinions on the recent events:

    1. People seem to be trying to find racism where imo it simply does not exist - the Coco Pops issue for example, seriously?
    2. Racism works both ways, fighting racism by being racist yourself defeats the whole purpose - Anthony Joshua's recent remarks being a prime example.

    Point 1. 100% and its an attack on free speech or to curtail it in my view. PC culture at its very worse, yuck!
    Point 2. AJ seems a good guy however a bit bland and I reckon will go with what he is pushed to do maybe with the odd remarks.
    One of the disadvantages of social media is that it allows people to express their views on any subject, including those they are not qualified to talk about.
    If they just stuck to their area of expertise, they wouldn't make themselves look foolish, and cause a distraction.

    You could of course argue that Marcus Rashford is an exception to this argument.
    Although I commend his efforts, and appreciate his concern, I think The Government would have got there anyway, eventually.
    All they seem to be doing these days is u-turning.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    madprof said:

    stokefc said:

    as a white man i have been racially abused and threatened with my life just for being in the wrong place , i left quickly

    I can’t stand any forms of discrimination..oh apart from being stokecityist 🤪

    Seriously George Floyd’s treatment is regretfully the tip of the iceberg...
    I think that there are so many similar cases in the US, that it is difficult to argue that the George Floyd case is the tip of the iceberg.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    lucy4 said:


    Some people are now looking to find racism in everything,which then undermines the whole purpose of raising issues of the genuine cases.


    Changing the logo on cereal boxes is unlikely to make anybodys life better.

    Any change will be down to hearts and minds rather than legislation.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    Cammykaze said:

    Prior to the thread and before the BLM type movements kicked into high gear I thought John Barnes had some interesting things to say about what he deems racist or not.

    He had it a load worse than 90% of these protesters.

    Not buying into the trap of taking on the emotion and being offended on behalf of others wishing to see offense wherever they look.

    Any improvement is likely to down to how many people are listening, rather than what anyone has to say.
  • markycashmarkycash Member Posts: 2,774
    It was mentioned above that John Barnes "had it a lot worse that 90% of these protesters"...

    This point is entirely irrelevant, unless there is an acceptable level of racism. We do not have an equal society.

    Regarding the 'does racism still exist in the UK' question...

    This is not a hard question to answer. One simple metric that highlights that racism still exists in the UK is arrests...

    Arrest rate per 1000 people by ethnicity:
    All = 12
    Asian = 12
    Black = 35
    Mixed = 19
    White = 10
    Others inc Chinese = 11
    (Ethnicity Fact and Figures Service, 2018)

    Some might suggest that this is just because black people are more likely to commit crime. There are 2 avenues that are worthwhile exploring when trying to understand why the arrest rates for certain ethnic groups are higher than others...

    Those avenues are genetics or environment.

    Often referred to as 'nature or nurture'. Those of a racist persuasion would like to suggest that the explanation for the above figures lay in the area of genetics or nature. This is a very outdated view, thankfully, as it is quite absurd to suggest that people of certain ethnic origins are genetically hard-wired for crime. This view is further debunked by a little research. In countries with greater levels of equality (income, housing & health) there is less disparity between crime figures for people of different ethnic origins. Conversely, in countries with lower levels of equality there is greater levels of disparity in the crime figures for people of different ethnic origins.

    If anyone wants to argue with the above data then I would suggest looking out other metrics such as longevity, income, health, education and housing. Across these metrics in the UK people of non-white ethnic origin fare worse.

    The above information makes it very clear that it is environment - not genetics - that explains the disproportionate differences in the above figures. In other words it is institutional racism. People of non-white ethnicity simply do not have equality of opportunity in the UK, some individuals might but on average they do not, hence the figures.

    Racism definitely exists in the UK. Whether one individual has it worse than another; or whether some countries are worse than others; is irrelevant (unless we are accepting of racism as long as it 'isn't too bad').
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    markycash said:

    It was mentioned above that John Barnes "had it a lot worse that 90% of these protesters"...

    This point is entirely irrelevant, unless there is an acceptable level of racism. We do not have an equal society.

    Regarding the 'does racism still exist in the UK' question...

    This is not a hard question to answer. One simple metric that highlights that racism still exists in the UK is arrests...

    Arrest rate per 1000 people by ethnicity:
    All = 12
    Asian = 12
    Black = 35
    Mixed = 19
    White = 10
    Others inc Chinese = 11
    (Ethnicity Fact and Figures Service, 2018)

    Some might suggest that this is just because black people are more likely to commit crime. There are 2 avenues that are worthwhile exploring when trying to understand why the arrest rates for certain ethnic groups are higher than others...

    Those avenues are genetics or environment.

    Often referred to as 'nature or nurture'. Those of a racist persuasion would like to suggest that the explanation for the above figures lay in the area of genetics or nature. This is a very outdated view, thankfully, as it is quite absurd to suggest that people of certain ethnic origins are genetically hard-wired for crime. This view is further debunked by a little research. In countries with greater levels of equality (income, housing & health) there is less disparity between crime figures for people of different ethnic origins. Conversely, in countries with lower levels of equality there is greater levels of disparity in the crime figures for people of different ethnic origins.

    If anyone wants to argue with the above data then I would suggest looking out other metrics such as longevity, income, health, education and housing. Across these metrics in the UK people of non-white ethnic origin fare worse.

    The above information makes it very clear that it is environment - not genetics - that explains the disproportionate differences in the above figures. In other words it is institutional racism. People of non-white ethnicity simply do not have equality of opportunity in the UK, some individuals might but on average they do not, hence the figures.

    Racism definitely exists in the UK. Whether one individual has it worse than another; or whether some countries are worse than others; is irrelevant (unless we are accepting of racism as long as it 'isn't too bad').

    I don't think anyone could argue that racism does not exist in the UK, the only debate could surely be about the extent.
    I am not sure how you improve the situation, as many institutions, organisations, and individuals, that clearly are racist claim that they aren't.
    Many of the peripheral issues like gollys on jam jars, are a distraction from the things that really matter.
    Legislation is not the answer, as you have to change peoples minds.
    For instance a racist employer will always have the excuse of choosing the best candidates, who always seem to be white, irrespective of any legislation.
    Positive discrimination leaves more people resentful, and probably more racist.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 3,168
    Positive discrimination is fine, provided it is proportionate, i.e is measurable according to advantage.

    Let's use a simple example.

    Suppose you are a good University, say Nottingham.
    You have 2 candidates.

    Candidate A goes to Eton, and is predicted to get BBB.
    Candidate B goes to an inner-city Comp. and is predicted BCC.

    Which to take? B. Every time.

    Because if Candidate A is only a few points better with all those advantages, Candidate B will be far better going forward, when each would have identical teaching. A is below average at Eton, whereas B is probably top 5% at the Comp.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 12,519
    Essexphil said:

    Positive discrimination is fine, provided it is proportionate, i.e is measurable according to advantage.

    Let's use a simple example.

    Suppose you are a good University, say Nottingham.
    You have 2 candidates.

    Candidate A goes to Eton, and is predicted to get BBB.
    Candidate B goes to a
    n inner-city Comp. and is predicted BCC.

    Which to take? B. Every time.

    Because if Candidate A is only a few points better with all those advantages, Candidate B will be far better going forward, when each would have identical teaching. A is below average at Eton, whereas B is probably top 5% at the Comp.

    You wont stop the other candidate feeling resentful, and maybe racist where he may not have been before, because of the incident.

    What if you were talking about a prestigious job.
    The top three candidates based on performance, and experience, are all white.
    You choose someone else because they aren't.
    All three leading candidates are furious, feel robbed, and quite rightly so.

    Wouldn't the decision be racist?

    No discrimination should be acceptable?

    The racism argument is surely about equality?

    All lives matter.
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 964


    One of the disadvantages of social media is that it allows people to express their views on any subject, including those they are not qualified to talk about.
    If they just stuck to their area of expertise, they wouldn't make themselves look foolish, and cause a distraction.

    You could of course argue that Marcus Rashford is an exception to this argument.
    Although I commend his efforts, and appreciate his concern, I think The Government would have got there anyway, eventually.
    All they seem to be doing these days is u-turning.


    There are much worse things out there than people expressing their views on a subject, even if it can be deemed offensive or foolish to some. It can be distracting of course however we don't need to read or acknowledge.

    It's a platform for people to give opinions on subject they want to type about which is fine. Can't give carte blanche of course as certain things are hard to defend. I would agree with education and upbringing being key factors in how best to conduct yourself on social media platforms.

    Social Media or anti-social media ;) for the vast amount of users is a bit of a time thief. They can be very useful if used sensibly without overindulging. Can say that about anything really!

    The biggest one, Facebook, themselves admit on built-in addictive features to get people hooked on the site while data mining people's private data. There are plenty of articles and videos on this so don't need to go into much detail in this thread.

    Much more concerned about the lack of privacy social media sites provide than people I don't have any feelings towards and likely will never meet talk a lot of b*llocks!

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