Sadly there is not always an appetite to solve said social problems because the elite are often quite happy with the status quo and would rather the masses pin the blame for their own lack of success on their own 'feckless' attitude.
You’ve probably seen enough from me for one day on this (quite possibly longer!), but I just wanted to highlight your very important point here. Whilst I’ve argued that any changes take a very long time to earn through, the system and those in charge are very unlikely to want to shake things up too much when they are benefiting - as you say.
I’ve just listened to the first hour of Bret Weinstein talking to Joe Rogan on this topic. He makes this point, but also the point that a system will replicate patterns such that an historically biased system can be showing its effects long after correction if opportunities for the future are linked to the outcomes of that system. For example, an old system exacerbated poverty on one group, the system is ‘fixed’ but it’s now poverty that is stopping the equity being restored.
Skip to 11:00 if you want to hear Bret explain this better than me!
The bit that worries me about the movement, is all the things Bret goes on to talk about, including the abolition of police and the attack on STEM and academia as a whole (including even Enlightenment values!). It really is very eye-opening, it is more than the slogan. I just think before you align yourself with the mob because you like the headlines, probably better to see what all the demands are.
If this exchange is going to prove anything, it will be how inefficient discussing such matters is on a forum.
Completely agree. Which is why I was a little surprised at the 'poor analysis due to lack of detail' comment on my original post. It just isn't an issue we will get to the bottom of on a forum.
That was my point, environment is a massive area of consideration, so we should look at it more closely and examine the factors that build environment - not simply say 'it's not genetic, so it must be environment, therefore institutionalised racism exists'.
For the sake of brevity I had to make a few small leaps, granted. However, stating that the cause of poverty among black people is not genetic is not one of those leaps; it isn't genetic.
I wouldn't even give the argument that 'poverty among black people may be genetic' serious debate. In the past some theorists such as Hans Eysenck put forward theories with those types of sentiment but thankfully this ethnocentric narrative has been largely dropped among credible sociologists.
If we accept that poverty among black people is not genetic - which hopefully we do - then that only leaves 'environment'. You could then reasonably argue that most factors within the environment are - at least in some way - related to the social structures and institutions within society. So even upon reflection I just don't feel this was a big leap to make. Maybe a small one.
There have been reports that concluded that institutionalised racism existed in the UK, most notably in the police force in the Macpherson report. A better argument suggesting such racism is still present would be to point to the 200-odd recommendations that were put forward by such reports that haven't been implemented. Pointing to outcome figures is troublesome, as it can take a very long time for any change to earn through.
Pointing to the fact that the findings of the McPherson report have not been implemented surely highlights institutional racism which was the overarching point of my original post?
I can see why you would say that, but I would argue telling someone the system is set up to hold them back would discourage them even trying to study and improve themselves, which is the best thing an individual could do.
If it were one or the other then maybe. However, that was why I mentioned the importance of dialectical thinking. Cannot believe I am about to quote George Galloway but what the ****, it makes the point...
'It is possible to chew gum and walk all at the same time'
So while it is possible to do both. I would argue that, while it is important to encourage individual ownership of ones experience; underscoring that the 'system may be set up to hold them back can be beneficial as...
(a) It may underscore the importance of applying oneself to overcome those hurdles.
and
(b) It ensures the social problem of 'unfair hurdles' is 'on the table' and can therefore be addressed.
No, if you want to find causality when predictive modelling it's necessary to standardise all explanatory variables aside from that you're testing, it removes correlation and is the basis of all multivariate analysis. You can look at the effect of race on crime stats on a one-way basis for example, and suggest that race is the reason for crime. However you then add poverty into the model and compare the effect of wealth on crime within each racial group. What you'll find is that poverty (one of the environmental factors) is the reason for the disparity, not race - that is an equally poor white/black group would be seen to commit the same proportion of crime.
This isn't my understanding of statistics. It may be different in mathematical modelling but seen as this is a sociological discussion I am not sure that matters.
While a parametric test such a Spearman Rho can be used to show the strength of relationship - and not causation - between 2 variables..
Using multivariate analytical tools such as a multi-way Anova, which considers multiple variables, doesn't mean causation can be determined (maybe loosely inferred according to that specific data set). It still points to strength of relationships, just between numerous variables and a regression would show which factors have the most significant effects (still not 'proving' causation).
A simple example would be a factory in which highly paid management started at 10am and low paid workers - working dangerous machinery - started at 9am.
A multi factorial analysis would show a strong relationship between between start time and workplace accidents and also a strong relationship between salary and workplace accidents. You could then do a regression to see which factor was most strongly correlated with workplace accidents. However, neither salary, nor start time would be the cause of the low paid workers having more accidents.
There could be some residual left that you might then determine is explained by race, but I hope you can see that the effect of race on outcome is way diminished once all of the other factors are accounted for
This is still pointing to 'inherent differences' causing higher incidences of poverty among black people. For the reasons mentioned above, this isn't something I personally would give any real consideration to.
Nope, I am not really saying this, I never said this at all. Such misinterpretations are what makes this such a delicate matter to discuss. What I'm saying is that if you have two people with all characteristics equal other than conscientiousness, then the one with higher conscientiousness will be more likely to succeed. This is why it's important not to discourage conscientiousness by pushing a narrative that 'no matter what you do, you won't get as far as x'.
It still reads to me that you are suggesting non black people could be more conscientious?
I wouldn't advocate 'discouraging conscientiousness' there is room, as mentioned above, for both.
'Pushing a narrative that no matter what you do, you won't get as far as x' - As mentioned above, I would suggest that explaining that the 'deck may be stacked against you' could serve to underscore the importance of individual effort. Increased individual effort may well overcome barriers for that individual but I would argue strongly that it isn't the solution to ensure that all BAME individuals, collectively, get the same returns out of life as non-BAME individuals.
There are a lot of points in your last part which are massive topics in their own right. Therefore, to avoid crashing the site when I click 'post', I will save that for another day
Suffice to say, I personally feel that UBI could be very worthwhile. The jury of international opinion does seem to be somewhat out on it, sadly. I also fear that even if we were to see this implemented widely, it will be a long way off. The Sars-Cov-2 pandemic has actually resulted in delayed/scrapped trials of UBI in certain areas of Scotland.
^ You wouldn't believe that I actually made a pledge with myself to exercise brevity when I returned to the site the other day. I could waffle till the cows come home...
Sadly there is not always an appetite to solve said social problems because the elite are often quite happy with the status quo and would rather the masses pin the blame for their own lack of success on their own 'feckless' attitude.
You’ve probably seen enough from me for one day on this (quite possibly longer!)
Ha, not at all, debate is good.
Although I am going to go donk around in the £5 PLO8 BH and have a pop at the Sunday major so I will come back to this tomorrow
Hi @markycash, I think we are converging on a lot of points, mainly due to reducing initial misunderstandings, hopefully the below helps to continue that trend.
I wouldn't even give the argument that 'poverty among black people may be genetic' serious debate.
No, neither would I. (At risk of telling you something you already know).. It is known that genetic variation within race is as great as it is between races. This is largely because race is a biological continuum and classifications can be quite arbitrary - BAME for example would cover quite the range. As an aside, in Robert Sapolsky's Behave he states: "Such heterogeneity is hard to appreciate in the US, where most African Americans descend from a few West African tribes that constitute 1 to 2 percent of the total tribal variability in Africa. One of the consequences of this, the fact that drugs are now marketed that preferentially target hypertension among African Americans, seemingly reifies the biological race concept but actually tells you more about the biology of descendants of a small subset of West Africans than about race as a whole."
So we can categorically remove genetics from this debate.
The contention I had to your original post was your assertion that we can conclude current institutionalised racism exists because there is disparity in outcome - and we know it can't be genetic. I am suggesting that environmental factors are more important than race here, although they are also correlated. In my later post I am suggesting that it could be that institutionalised racism of the past has influenced an outcome (e.g. poverty) disproportionately which now perpetuates further inequality of outcome across the groups.
No offence, but sociologists are known for being a little light on statistics Predictive modelling is my background, trying to work out which explanatory variables have an effect (and to what extent) on a response variable. Your example is a good one, but you've picked perfectly correlated variables - in such a situation an AI model will simply pick one to the exclusion of the others, when a human gets eyes on it we can rationalise which is likely to be causal. In reality factors are rarely perfectly correlated, and it pays to find causality to build the best model. For example, using that model to predict how accident outcomes would be impacted if the factory were to alter working hours.
There's always residual/error in a model, but you can't argue it's not possible to predict whether it's race or all of the other factors we described that lead to the discrepancies between races in the outcome. I'll leave the maths there, but if you're interested in this then this series gives a good step through how we build predictive models. https://towardsdatascience.com/@rpradeepmenon
There could be some residual left that you might then determine is explained by race, but I hope you can see that the effect of race on outcome is way diminished once all of the other factors are accounted for
This is still pointing to 'inherent differences' causing higher incidences of poverty among black people. For the reasons mentioned above, this isn't something I personally would give any real consideration to.
No. This was a just an example of the modelling process. I'm saying if you were to fit all of your explanatory variables, and there was still a residual greater than random error showing, you might deduce that race is a factor. You might also deduce that there is more factor data that you haven't got your hands on yet, because you know intuitively that race itself shouldn't be driving a difference in the outcome.
It still reads to me that you are suggesting non black people could be more conscientious?
Think you meant black people, but again a big NO to this! The point in building an accurate predictive model is that it will explain the contribution to the outcome of a variable with all other factors held constant. If it were possible for an individual to be more conscientious the model would demonstrate that that would be of benefit, rich/poor, black/white, single/dual parenting, etc. I agree though, that this wouldn't be the macro solution.
I must say, I didn't think I'd ever be writing so much on such a topic (particularly on a poker site!), but recent events and the pushing of us/them groups in the whole BLM movement does really concern me.
Shocking moment double amputee writhes in agony on the ground 'after being pepper-sprayed by police and having his prosthetic legs taken by cops while peacefully protesting' Video from Sunday's protests in Columbus, Ohio, shows double amputee laying on the sidewalk in agony with his prosthetic legs detached According to witness accounts, police officers seeking to disperse the crowd knocked down the disabled man and deployed pepper spray Officers then allegedly detached his legs and took them away, but other protesters intervened and retrieved them, getting maced in the process Other videos from the event showed cops using bikes to push protesters out of the way Columbus mayor on Monday address the incident in a tweet: 'We are taking the matter very seriously'
A disturbing cellphone recording that was taken during Sunday's George Floyd protests in Ohio shows a double amputee thrashing on the ground in agony after allegedly being knocked down and pepper-sprayed by police. The incident took place during a clash between Columbus police officers and a crowd of people protesting police brutality. According to multiple purported witnesses, the double amputee was peacefully protesting when officers possibly struck him and deployed pepper spray against him.
@bbMike - I meant to come back to this yesterday but had a severe migraine, temperature and felt generally very ****. Was starting to think it could be 'the virus' although am feeling marginally better today, at least enough to waffle somewhat.
Although I will attempt to employ some brevity today for the above reason (no promises).
No offence, but sociologists are known for being a little light on statistics
I am not sure I am a 'sociologist'. My main qualifications are in Psychology, teaching and Community Development and somehow that led to me teaching Health & Social Care and Early Years instead of the social sciences. I have long since lost track of which box I am supposed to be inhabiting.
The statistical and research studies I done where while studying Psychology and obviously, Psychologists are much much more famed than Sociologists for their statistical prowess Especially as the field of Psychology bends over backwards to incorporate statistics so it can be viewed as a 'harder' and more 'grown up' science than it actually is whereas Sociology seems a bit more content with its place in the grand order.
I am guessing your work with statistics is from a more mathematical perspective? This is likely where our application of statistics to this subject diverges...
When using statistical analysis in Psychology, if you dared utter the words 'proved' or 'caused' there would usually be a queue of lecturers, Dr's & Professors jockeying for position to give you a swift kick in the nuts. I fear using both at once may have been grounds for a public hanging.
However, in predictive mathematical modelling I can see that there would likely be a stronger case - and need for - using results to point more directly towards causality.
Whilst I’ve argued that any changes take a very long time to earn through
This is an interesting point. I can't help but think of gender equality in relation to political representation, particularly in relation to UK politics.
I am not suggesting for a minute that there is currently equity or equality of opportunity - for aspiring politicians - regardless of gender in UK politics. But...
If the system was currently providing the same level of opportunity for both genders it is unlikely that political representation in UK politics would already be evenly distributed between the genders. It would take time for the full effects of equality policies to manifest.
While I am happy to hedge my bets on whether there is 'a lag' between 'measures taken' and 'outcomes achieved' in relation to the above...
I would confidently say that enough hasn't been done to tackle racism, regardless of lag. Generally over the last 100 years there has been progress, this is undeniable. However, we haven't got to where we need to be in order to have social justice and equality of opportunity for everyone irrespective of race. A very brief look at current government policies underscores this.
The worrying thing for me is that - for the first time in a while - currently we seem to be going in completely the wrong direction. If progress on tackling racial inequality in the UK and USA stagnates, for the time being, it could be seen as a reasonable outcome given the populist divisive governments we are having to endure currently.
Until we get governments with less divisive ideologies we are likely to see a further erosion of rights for BAME individuals. Which is thoroughly depressing.
I must say, I didn't think I'd ever be writing so much on such a topic (particularly on a poker site!), but recent events and the pushing of us/them groups in the whole BLM movement does really concern me.
Ha, yes! I didn't think I would be writing so much on the topic after college closed for the summer. If the discussion continues it would be interesting to think about what the solutions might be. I don't think for a second I have all of the answers but I would happily have a go at offering suggestions. I can't help but feel a little uneasy putting forward suggestions seen as I have no personal experience of being a victim of racism but general debate has to a better path to traverse than people chucking things at one another in the streets.
Finding solutions is a topic I am particularly interested in. I once interviewed for a job which entailed helping the Afro-Caribbean population integrate in Glasgow. Needless to say I didn't get the job. I am not declaring shenanigans or anything but I doubt being a white middle aged male would have particularly helped my cause.
@bbMike - I meant to come back to this yesterday but had a severe migraine, temperature and felt generally very ****. Was starting to think it could be 'the virus' although am feeling marginally better today, at least enough to waffle somewhat.
Although I will attempt to employ some brevity today for the above reason (no promises).
No offence, but sociologists are known for being a little light on statistics
I am not sure I am a 'sociologist'. My main qualifications are in Psychology, teaching and Community Development and somehow that led to me teaching Health & Social Care and Early Years instead of the social sciences. I have long since lost track of which box I am supposed to be inhabiting.
The statistical and research studies I done where while studying Psychology and obviously, Psychologists are much much more famed than Sociologists for their statistical prowess Especially as the field of Psychology bends over backwards to incorporate statistics so it can be viewed as a 'harder' and more 'grown up' science than it actually is whereas Sociology seems a bit more content with its place in the grand order.
I am guessing your work with statistics is from a more mathematical perspective? This is likely where our application of statistics to this subject diverges...
When using statistical analysis in Psychology, if you dared utter the words 'proved' or 'caused' there would usually be a queue of lecturers, Dr's & Professors jockeying for position to give you a swift kick in the nuts. I fear using both at once may have been grounds for a public hanging.
However, in predictive mathematical modelling I can see that there would likely be a stronger case - and need for - using results to point more directly towards causality.
Whilst I’ve argued that any changes take a very long time to earn through
This is an interesting point. I can't help but think of gender equality in relation to political representation, particularly in relation to UK politics.
I am not suggesting for a minute that there is currently equity or equality of opportunity - for aspiring politicians - regardless of gender in UK politics. But...
If the system was currently providing the same level of opportunity for both genders it is unlikely that political representation in UK politics would already be evenly distributed between the genders. It would take time for the full effects of equality policies to manifest.
While I am happy to hedge my bets on whether there is 'a lag' between 'measures taken' and 'outcomes achieved' in relation to the above...
I would confidently say that enough hasn't been done to tackle racism, regardless of lag. Generally over the last 100 years there has been progress, this is undeniable. However, we haven't got to where we need to be in order to have social justice and equality of opportunity for everyone irrespective of race. A very brief look at current government policies underscores this.
The worrying thing for me is that - for the first time in a while - currently we seem to be going in completely the wrong direction. If progress on tackling racial inequality in the UK and USA stagnates, for the time being, it could be seen as a reasonable outcome given the populist divisive governments we are having to endure currently.
Until we get governments with less divisive ideologies we are likely to see a further erosion of rights for BAME individuals. Which is thoroughly depressing.
I must say, I didn't think I'd ever be writing so much on such a topic (particularly on a poker site!), but recent events and the pushing of us/them groups in the whole BLM movement does really concern me.
Ha, yes! I didn't think I would be writing so much on the topic after college closed for the summer. If the discussion continues it would be interesting to think about what the solutions might be. I don't think for a second I have all of the answers but I would happily have a go at offering suggestions. I can't help but feel a little uneasy putting forward suggestions seen as I have no personal experience of being a victim of racism but general debate has to a better path to traverse than people chucking things at one another in the streets.
Finding solutions is a topic I am particularly interested in. I once interviewed for a job which entailed helping the Afro-Caribbean population integrate in Glasgow. Needless to say I didn't get the job. I am not declaring shenanigans or anything but I doubt being a white middle aged male would have particularly helped my cause.
Brilliant.
The noose that was found in the garage of Nascars only black driver, that resulted in more protests, turned out to be a garage door handle, and had been there since last year.
@bbMike - I meant to come back to this yesterday but had a severe migraine, temperature and felt generally very ****. Was starting to think it could be 'the virus' although am feeling marginally better today, at least enough to waffle somewhat.
Although I will attempt to employ some brevity today for the above reason (no promises).
No offence, but sociologists are known for being a little light on statistics
I am not sure I am a 'sociologist'. My main qualifications are in Psychology, teaching and Community Development and somehow that led to me teaching Health & Social Care and Early Years instead of the social sciences. I have long since lost track of which box I am supposed to be inhabiting.
The statistical and research studies I done where while studying Psychology and obviously, Psychologists are much much more famed than Sociologists for their statistical prowess Especially as the field of Psychology bends over backwards to incorporate statistics so it can be viewed as a 'harder' and more 'grown up' science than it actually is whereas Sociology seems a bit more content with its place in the grand order.
I am guessing your work with statistics is from a more mathematical perspective? This is likely where our application of statistics to this subject diverges...
When using statistical analysis in Psychology, if you dared utter the words 'proved' or 'caused' there would usually be a queue of lecturers, Dr's & Professors jockeying for position to give you a swift kick in the nuts. I fear using both at once may have been grounds for a public hanging.
However, in predictive mathematical modelling I can see that there would likely be a stronger case - and need for - using results to point more directly towards causality.
Whilst I’ve argued that any changes take a very long time to earn through
This is an interesting point. I can't help but think of gender equality in relation to political representation, particularly in relation to UK politics.
I am not suggesting for a minute that there is currently equity or equality of opportunity - for aspiring politicians - regardless of gender in UK politics. But...
If the system was currently providing the same level of opportunity for both genders it is unlikely that political representation in UK politics would already be evenly distributed between the genders. It would take time for the full effects of equality policies to manifest.
While I am happy to hedge my bets on whether there is 'a lag' between 'measures taken' and 'outcomes achieved' in relation to the above...
I would confidently say that enough hasn't been done to tackle racism, regardless of lag. Generally over the last 100 years there has been progress, this is undeniable. However, we haven't got to where we need to be in order to have social justice and equality of opportunity for everyone irrespective of race. A very brief look at current government policies underscores this.
The worrying thing for me is that - for the first time in a while - currently we seem to be going in completely the wrong direction. If progress on tackling racial inequality in the UK and USA stagnates, for the time being, it could be seen as a reasonable outcome given the populist divisive governments we are having to endure currently.
Until we get governments with less divisive ideologies we are likely to see a further erosion of rights for BAME individuals. Which is thoroughly depressing.
I must say, I didn't think I'd ever be writing so much on such a topic (particularly on a poker site!), but recent events and the pushing of us/them groups in the whole BLM movement does really concern me.
Ha, yes! I didn't think I would be writing so much on the topic after college closed for the summer. If the discussion continues it would be interesting to think about what the solutions might be. I don't think for a second I have all of the answers but I would happily have a go at offering suggestions. I can't help but feel a little uneasy putting forward suggestions seen as I have no personal experience of being a victim of racism but general debate has to a better path to traverse than people chucking things at one another in the streets.
Finding solutions is a topic I am particularly interested in. I once interviewed for a job which entailed helping the Afro-Caribbean population integrate in Glasgow. Needless to say I didn't get the job. I am not declaring shenanigans or anything but I doubt being a white middle aged male would have particularly helped my cause.
Brilliant.
The noose that was found in the garage of Nascars only black driver, that resulted in more protests, turned out to be a garage door handle, and had been there since last year.
Bubba Wallace insists the 'door pull rope' found in his NASCAR garage was a 'straight-up noose' after the FBI finds no evidence of a hate crime and says it had been there since October
bbMike said: I must say, I didn't think I'd ever be writing so much on such a topic (particularly on a poker site!), but recent events and the pushing of us/them groups in the whole BLM movement does really concern me.
Look Phil, I understand your example, and I don’t need your pity.
My objection to your example was only that it is a simplification, if all else is equal then yes we can credibly determine that the achievement from the Comp is greater than that from Eton. The objection was based all of the factors you need to standardise that you just imply given Eton vs Comp.
Perhaps that’s what they thought in the 1950s, I’ve no idea.
The recruitment process needs to test aptitude, and it’s never going to be decided on a grade here or there. You’re assessing character and potential. One left leaning member of staff told me if he saw another CV from Oxford Uni it was going straight in the bin. He’d decided we had enough of those and that this move was pro-diversity, regardless of background or anything other than the fact they’d studied at Oxford.
I am sure 1 employer did that.
I have seen lots of employers who have done the reverse-too many candidates, so just ditch the non-Oxbridge ones. The City has an amazingly high proportion of white, public school-educated Solicitors.
But it is not just the Professions.
The police? 86% of the population are white. 93.1% of police officers are white. Asian? 6.8% population, 2.9% of the force. Black? 3.3%/1.2%.
At "Senior Officer" level it is worse. Just 48 Asian and 24 Black officers. That is about 2.5% total.
Or we could take football. I used to believe that it was only a matter of time before all those great 70s/80s black footballers changed management. Very few ever got a chance. Those that did, on average, lasted half as long as the average white manager.
We still have never had a BAME Prime minister. We have a Government with no Black person in it.
Do you believe that no Black person is worthy of helping to run our country? No British BAME footballer anywhere near managing a top club?
It could be that none of them have been good enough. Or it could be that the system needs changing.
But it has to be one or the other.
The football argument is difficult to stand up, and sometimes the bare stats are not the full story. I haven't a clue what the full story is. To accept that the lack of black Premier League managers is down to racism means that we have to accept that every Premier League Chairman/board is racist, as the selection of the manager is down to the individual club. If the managers are not chosen on merit we would have to accept that they would prefer to limit the success of their own club by continually choosing an inferior white candidate over a superior black candidate. I am not certain of the number of the great black players there were in the 70s/80s, but Viv Anderson was the first to get a full England cap in 1979. Not all great footballers make good managers, and not all great footballers wish to become managers. Some great players from other counties return home on retirement. Other great players are prima donnas, will expect a top job, and be unwilling to serve an apprenticeship in management at a lower league club. It is difficult to see a great player not being able to get a managers job anywhere. I came across a 2017 article that claimed that the number of BAME players in the Premier League has doubled since the 1992/1993 season. This is confusing as it would seem to point to the fact that these racist Chairmen/boards are happy to recruit increasing numbers of Bame players but are not prepared to give any of them a managers job.
The police problem is more obvious where the overwhelming majority are white, then it follows that the vast majority of senior officers will be white. I can also see that the lives of recruits from ethnic minorities may be made difficult by racist colleagues, resulting in low numbers of recruits, and very short careers. I am sure that this can be addressed in time, if there is a will to do so.
I think that any improvement in racism in this country will take time as it will depend on many people radically changing their views, or dying.
I very much subscribe to the "Leopards and Spots" view of life.
Summary This is a tale of two tragedies. At the heart of the first is Dr. Steven Hayne, a doctor the State of Mississippi employed as its de facto medical examiner for two decades. Beginning in the late 1980s, he performed anywhere from 1,200 to 1,800 autopsies per year, five times more than is recommended, performed at night in the basement of a local funeral home. Autopsy reports claimed organs had been observed and weighed when, in reality, they had been surgically removed from the body years before. But Hayne was the only game in town. He also often brought in local dentist and self-styled "bite mark specialist" Dr. Michael West, who would discover marks on victim's bodies, at times invisible to the naked eye, and then match those marks - "indeed and without doubt" - to law enforcement's lead suspect. This leads to the second tragic tale: that of Kennedy Brewer and Levon Brooks, two black men each convicted in separate cases of the brutal rape and murder of young girls. Dr. Hayne's autopsy and Dr. West's bite-mark matching formed the bases for the convictions. Combined, the two men served over 30 years in Mississippi's notorious penitentiary - Parchman Farm - before being exonerated in 2008. Brooks' and Brewer's wrongful convictions lie at the intersection of both the most pressing problem facing this country's criminal justice system - structural injustice built on the historic foundation of race and class as well as with the much more contemporary but equally egregious problem of invalid forensic science. The old problem is inextricably bound up with and exacerbates the new. In The Cadaver King and the Country Dentist, Radley Balko and Tucker Carrington write a true story of Southern Gothic horror - of two innocent men wrongly convicted of vicious crimes and the legally condoned failures that allowed it to happen. Balko and Carrington will shine a light on the institutional and professional failures that allowed this tragic, astonishing story to happen, identify where it may have happened elsewhere, and show how to prevent it from happening again.
› Beginning a new hand (1,519,078,683) MastrShftr: lol dumb jock idiot 14:27› Dunc87 has won 13,015 chips with Two Pairs, 8s and 7s 8h8c7h7dQc › Poker98123 has won 1,835 chips with Pair of 7s 7h7dAdQcJd › markrov has won 1,835 chips with Pair of 7s 7h7dAsQcJh › Beginning a new hand (1,519,078,825) › markrov has won 2,000 chips › Beginning a new hand (1,519,078,900) MastrShftr: typical clueless idiot 14:28MastrShftr: cant play › BONNIE37 has won 1,860 chips with Flush to the Ace Ac7c5c3c2c › Poker98123 has won 5,505 chips with Flush to the Ace Ac8c7c5c3c › markrov has won 1,860 chips with Flush to the Ace Ac7c5c3c2c › Beginning a new hand (1,519,079,072) › Poker98123 has won 14,730 chips with Two Pairs, Kings and Queens KsKdQsQh8h MastrShftr: bye u clueless jock f kwit
St Louis prosecutor says she might overrule police and CHARGE lawyer couple who brandished firearms at protesters outside their mansion after they said they 'feared for their lives' Mark McCloskey, 63, and his wife Patricia McCloskey, 61, were seen touting an AR-15 rifle and a handgun as protesters marched by their home Sunday The city’s lead prosecutor has said they are now under investigation St. Louis prosecutor Kimberly Gardner said Monday she was 'alarmed' that 'peaceful protesters were met by guns' It comes despite police saying there would be no charges brought against them An attorney for the couple insists they acted lawfully on their property He claimed they are supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement The lawyers were the only ones to file a police report after the confrontation
'I don't feel safe with you driving around my neighborhood': White man 'follows black woman, 21, for TWO MILES' demanding to know what she was doing there Julia Santos, 21, of Groveland, Massachusetts filmed the moment she confronted a white man who had allegedly followed her in his car for two miles on Monday The white man, driving a BMW convertible, asked her: 'What are you driving up Juniper Terrace for?' Santos explained she was picking up free dog food from a person in the area She asked him if he was following her because she is black When Santos said she didn't feel safe near him he replied: 'You don’t feel safe? I don’t feel safe with you driving around my neighborhood' The man finally left her alone when a woman nearby intervened Cops say they're investigating and have interviewed the man in the clip
Black woman Julia Santos, 21, of Groveland, Massachusetts filmed the moment she confronted a white man (above) who allegedly followed her in his car for two miles on Monday before asking what she was doing in his neighborhood. He told her 'I don’t feel safe with you driving around my neighborhood'
Hampton Inn employee is fired after calling cops on a black guest and her two children, telling the mother that 'it's always people like you using the pool unauthorized' ool unauthorized' Her termination came after video of the employee's confrontation with the family - filmed by Anita Williams-Wright - went viral over the weekend The nearly-10 minute video shows the mother and her two children out at the hotel's pool in Williamston, North Carolina Throughout the duration of the video, Williams-Wright shares that she had been on the phone with her mother while her children swam Williams-Wright shared that the employee came and asked her if she had a room at the hotel before calling police on her when she would not identify herself The mother shows officer her room key but they run her license plate 'I know I saw his shirt. I saw him leaving earlier,' the employee says about Williams-Wright's son, who is exiting the pool without his shirt Video has prompted a response from the hotel, who announced that the employee had been fired from their job 'Hampton by Hilton has zero tolerance for racism or discrimination of any kind,' the hotel said in a statement
St Louis prosecutor says she might overrule police and CHARGE lawyer couple who brandished firearms at protesters outside their mansion after they said they 'feared for their lives' Mark McCloskey, 63, and his wife Patricia McCloskey, 61, were seen touting an AR-15 rifle and a handgun as protesters marched by their home Sunday The city’s lead prosecutor has said they are now under investigation St. Louis prosecutor Kimberly Gardner said Monday she was 'alarmed' that 'peaceful protesters were met by guns' It comes despite police saying there would be no charges brought against them An attorney for the couple insists they acted lawfully on their property He claimed they are supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement The lawyers were the only ones to file a police report after the confrontation
This is an interesting one. They didn’t march by their property, they marched on their property breaching a security gate with a sign that said No Trespassing.
I thought the whole point of being able to own guns in America was so that you could defend yourself and your property?
Reading a twitter thread on this story it seems a number of complaints are that the fence keeps people out (segregation from black people) and that who needs a house this big? So another case of undeserved wealth that must be taken and redistributed?
So a mob can turn up to your property demanding it’s a symbol of white privilege, and then play the victim when they have a gun pointed at them and are asked to observe the law and leave the grounds.
St Louis prosecutor says she might overrule police and CHARGE lawyer couple who brandished firearms at protesters outside their mansion after they said they 'feared for their lives' Mark McCloskey, 63, and his wife Patricia McCloskey, 61, were seen touting an AR-15 rifle and a handgun as protesters marched by their home Sunday The city’s lead prosecutor has said they are now under investigation St. Louis prosecutor Kimberly Gardner said Monday she was 'alarmed' that 'peaceful protesters were met by guns' It comes despite police saying there would be no charges brought against them An attorney for the couple insists they acted lawfully on their property He claimed they are supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement The lawyers were the only ones to file a police report after the confrontation
This is an interesting one. They didn’t march by their property, they marched on their property breaching a security gate with a sign that said No Trespassing.
I thought the whole point of being able to own guns in America was so that you could defend yourself and your property?
Reading a twitter thread on this story it seems a number of complaints are that the fence keeps people out (segregation from black people) and that who needs a house this big? So another case of undeserved wealth that must be taken and redistributed?
So a mob can turn up to your property demanding it’s a symbol of white privilege, and then play the victim when they have a gun pointed at them and are asked to observe the law and leave the grounds.
Seems a stable protest.
The protesters broke down the gate into the development in which they live, rather than the gate into their property. Nobody else complained.
Comments
I’ve just listened to the first hour of Bret Weinstein talking to Joe Rogan on this topic. He makes this point, but also the point that a system will replicate patterns such that an historically biased system can be showing its effects long after correction if opportunities for the future are linked to the outcomes of that system. For example, an old system exacerbated poverty on one group, the system is ‘fixed’ but it’s now poverty that is stopping the equity being restored.
Skip to 11:00 if you want to hear Bret explain this better than me!
The bit that worries me about the movement, is all the things Bret goes on to talk about, including the abolition of police and the attack on STEM and academia as a whole (including even Enlightenment values!). It really is very eye-opening, it is more than the slogan. I just think before you align yourself with the mob because you like the headlines, probably better to see what all the demands are.
I will watch the other 2 hours(!) later.
For the sake of brevity I had to make a few small leaps, granted. However, stating that the cause of poverty among black people is not genetic is not one of those leaps; it isn't genetic.
I wouldn't even give the argument that 'poverty among black people may be genetic' serious debate. In the past some theorists such as Hans Eysenck put forward theories with those types of sentiment but thankfully this ethnocentric narrative has been largely dropped among credible sociologists.
If we accept that poverty among black people is not genetic - which hopefully we do - then that only leaves 'environment'. You could then reasonably argue that most factors within the environment are - at least in some way - related to the social structures and institutions within society. So even upon reflection I just don't feel this was a big leap to make. Maybe a small one.
Pointing to the fact that the findings of the McPherson report have not been implemented surely highlights institutional racism which was the overarching point of my original post? If it were one or the other then maybe. However, that was why I mentioned the importance of dialectical thinking. Cannot believe I am about to quote George Galloway but what the ****, it makes the point...
'It is possible to chew gum and walk all at the same time'
So while it is possible to do both. I would argue that, while it is important to encourage individual ownership of ones experience; underscoring that the 'system may be set up to hold them back can be beneficial as...
(a) It may underscore the importance of applying oneself to overcome those hurdles.
and
(b) It ensures the social problem of 'unfair hurdles' is 'on the table' and can therefore be addressed.
This isn't my understanding of statistics. It may be different in mathematical modelling but seen as this is a sociological discussion I am not sure that matters.
While a parametric test such a Spearman Rho can be used to show the strength of relationship - and not causation - between 2 variables..
Using multivariate analytical tools such as a multi-way Anova, which considers multiple variables, doesn't mean causation can be determined (maybe loosely inferred according to that specific data set). It still points to strength of relationships, just between numerous variables and a regression would show which factors have the most significant effects (still not 'proving' causation).
A simple example would be a factory in which highly paid management started at 10am and low paid workers - working dangerous machinery - started at 9am.
A multi factorial analysis would show a strong relationship between between start time and workplace accidents and also a strong relationship between salary and workplace accidents. You could then do a regression to see which factor was most strongly correlated with workplace accidents. However, neither salary, nor start time would be the cause of the low paid workers having more accidents. This is still pointing to 'inherent differences' causing higher incidences of poverty among black people. For the reasons mentioned above, this isn't something I personally would give any real consideration to. It still reads to me that you are suggesting non black people could be more conscientious?
I wouldn't advocate 'discouraging conscientiousness' there is room, as mentioned above, for both.
'Pushing a narrative that no matter what you do, you won't get as far as x' - As mentioned above, I would suggest that explaining that the 'deck may be stacked against you' could serve to underscore the importance of individual effort. Increased individual effort may well overcome barriers for that individual but I would argue strongly that it isn't the solution to ensure that all BAME individuals, collectively, get the same returns out of life as non-BAME individuals.
There are a lot of points in your last part which are massive topics in their own right. Therefore, to avoid crashing the site when I click 'post', I will save that for another day
Suffice to say, I personally feel that UBI could be very worthwhile. The jury of international opinion does seem to be somewhat out on it, sadly. I also fear that even if we were to see this implemented widely, it will be a long way off. The Sars-Cov-2 pandemic has actually resulted in delayed/scrapped trials of UBI in certain areas of Scotland.
^ You wouldn't believe that I actually made a pledge with myself to exercise brevity when I returned to the site the other day. I could waffle till the cows come home...
@markycash wrote;
"For the sake of brevity"
That sure went well.
Enjoyed the debate though. Such a difficult subject.
Although I am going to go donk around in the £5 PLO8 BH and have a pop at the Sunday major so I will come back to this tomorrow
So we can categorically remove genetics from this debate.
The contention I had to your original post was your assertion that we can conclude current institutionalised racism exists because there is disparity in outcome - and we know it can't be genetic. I am suggesting that environmental factors are more important than race here, although they are also correlated. In my later post I am suggesting that it could be that institutionalised racism of the past has influenced an outcome (e.g. poverty) disproportionately which now perpetuates further inequality of outcome across the groups. No offence, but sociologists are known for being a little light on statistics
There's always residual/error in a model, but you can't argue it's not possible to predict whether it's race or all of the other factors we described that lead to the discrepancies between races in the outcome. I'll leave the maths there, but if you're interested in this then this series gives a good step through how we build predictive models. https://towardsdatascience.com/@rpradeepmenon No. This was a just an example of the modelling process. I'm saying if you were to fit all of your explanatory variables, and there was still a residual greater than random error showing, you might deduce that race is a factor. You might also deduce that there is more factor data that you haven't got your hands on yet, because you know intuitively that race itself shouldn't be driving a difference in the outcome. Think you meant black people, but again a big NO to this! The point in building an accurate predictive model is that it will explain the contribution to the outcome of a variable with all other factors held constant. If it were possible for an individual to be more conscientious the model would demonstrate that that would be of benefit, rich/poor, black/white, single/dual parenting, etc. I agree though, that this wouldn't be the macro solution.
I must say, I didn't think I'd ever be writing so much on such a topic (particularly on a poker site!), but recent events and the pushing of us/them groups in the whole BLM movement does really concern me.
Shocking moment double amputee writhes in agony on the ground 'after being pepper-sprayed by police and having his prosthetic legs taken by cops while peacefully protesting'
Video from Sunday's protests in Columbus, Ohio, shows double amputee laying on the sidewalk in agony with his prosthetic legs detached
According to witness accounts, police officers seeking to disperse the crowd knocked down the disabled man and deployed pepper spray
Officers then allegedly detached his legs and took them away, but other protesters intervened and retrieved them, getting maced in the process
Other videos from the event showed cops using bikes to push protesters out of the way
Columbus mayor on Monday address the incident in a tweet: 'We are taking the matter very seriously'
A disturbing cellphone recording that was taken during Sunday's George Floyd protests in Ohio shows a double amputee thrashing on the ground in agony after allegedly being knocked down and pepper-sprayed by police.
The incident took place during a clash between Columbus police officers and a crowd of people protesting police brutality.
According to multiple purported witnesses, the double amputee was peacefully protesting when officers possibly struck him and deployed pepper spray against him.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448535/Double-amputee-peacefully-protesting-Ohio-hit-pepper-sprayed-police.html
Although I will attempt to employ some brevity today for the above reason (no promises). The Sky bandwidth department will be very relieved
The statistical and research studies I done where while studying Psychology and obviously, Psychologists are much much more famed than Sociologists for their statistical prowess
I am guessing your work with statistics is from a more mathematical perspective? This is likely where our application of statistics to this subject diverges...
When using statistical analysis in Psychology, if you dared utter the words 'proved' or 'caused' there would usually be a queue of lecturers, Dr's & Professors jockeying for position to give you a swift kick in the nuts. I fear using both at once may have been grounds for a public hanging.
However, in predictive mathematical modelling I can see that there would likely be a stronger case - and need for - using results to point more directly towards causality.
This is an interesting point. I can't help but think of gender equality in relation to political representation, particularly in relation to UK politics.
I am not suggesting for a minute that there is currently equity or equality of opportunity - for aspiring politicians - regardless of gender in UK politics. But...
If the system was currently providing the same level of opportunity for both genders it is unlikely that political representation in UK politics would already be evenly distributed between the genders. It would take time for the full effects of equality policies to manifest.
While I am happy to hedge my bets on whether there is 'a lag' between 'measures taken' and 'outcomes achieved' in relation to the above...
I would confidently say that enough hasn't been done to tackle racism, regardless of lag. Generally over the last 100 years there has been progress, this is undeniable. However, we haven't got to where we need to be in order to have social justice and equality of opportunity for everyone irrespective of race. A very brief look at current government policies underscores this.
The worrying thing for me is that - for the first time in a while - currently we seem to be going in completely the wrong direction. If progress on tackling racial inequality in the UK and USA stagnates, for the time being, it could be seen as a reasonable outcome given the populist divisive governments we are having to endure currently.
Until we get governments with less divisive ideologies we are likely to see a further erosion of rights for BAME individuals. Which is thoroughly depressing. Ha, yes! I didn't think I would be writing so much on the topic after college closed for the summer. If the discussion continues it would be interesting to think about what the solutions might be. I don't think for a second I have all of the answers but I would happily have a go at offering suggestions. I can't help but feel a little uneasy putting forward suggestions seen as I have no personal experience of being a victim of racism but general debate has to a better path to traverse than people chucking things at one another in the streets.
Finding solutions is a topic I am particularly interested in. I once interviewed for a job which entailed helping the Afro-Caribbean population integrate in Glasgow. Needless to say I didn't get the job. I am not declaring shenanigans or anything but I doubt being a white middle aged male would have particularly helped my cause.
The noose that was found in the garage of Nascars only black driver, that resulted in more protests, turned out to be a garage door handle, and had been there since last year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8454261/Bubba-Wallace-insists-rope-NASCAR-garage-straight-noose.html
I must say, I didn't think I'd ever be writing so much on such a topic (particularly on a poker site!), but recent events and the pushing of us/them groups in the whole BLM movement does really concern me.
It's very concerning. The US/Them mentality.
EDIT - anyone spot an expression between 12 and 13s into the video?
Cammy
I haven't a clue what the full story is.
To accept that the lack of black Premier League managers is down to racism means that we have to accept that every Premier League Chairman/board is racist, as the selection of the manager is down to the individual club.
If the managers are not chosen on merit we would have to accept that they would prefer to limit the success of their own club by continually choosing an inferior white candidate over a superior black candidate.
I am not certain of the number of the great black players there were in the 70s/80s, but Viv Anderson was the first to get a full England cap in 1979.
Not all great footballers make good managers, and not all great footballers wish to become managers.
Some great players from other counties return home on retirement.
Other great players are prima donnas, will expect a top job, and be unwilling to serve an apprenticeship in management at a lower league club.
It is difficult to see a great player not being able to get a managers job anywhere.
I came across a 2017 article that claimed that the number of BAME players in the Premier League has doubled since the 1992/1993 season.
This is confusing as it would seem to point to the fact that these racist Chairmen/boards are happy to recruit increasing numbers of Bame players but are not prepared to give any of them a managers job.
The police problem is more obvious where the overwhelming majority are white, then it follows that the vast majority of senior officers will be white.
I can also see that the lives of recruits from ethnic minorities may be made difficult by racist colleagues, resulting in low numbers of recruits, and very short careers.
I am sure that this can be addressed in time, if there is a will to do so.
I think that any improvement in racism in this country will take time as it will depend on many people radically changing their views, or dying.
I very much subscribe to the "Leopards and Spots" view of life.
Summary
This is a tale of two tragedies.
At the heart of the first is Dr. Steven Hayne, a doctor the State of Mississippi employed as its de facto medical examiner for two decades. Beginning in the late 1980s, he performed anywhere from 1,200 to 1,800 autopsies per year, five times more than is recommended, performed at night in the basement of a local funeral home. Autopsy reports claimed organs had been observed and weighed when, in reality, they had been surgically removed from the body years before. But Hayne was the only game in town. He also often brought in local dentist and self-styled "bite mark specialist" Dr. Michael West, who would discover marks on victim's bodies, at times invisible to the naked eye, and then match those marks - "indeed and without doubt" - to law enforcement's lead suspect.
This leads to the second tragic tale: that of Kennedy Brewer and Levon Brooks, two black men each convicted in separate cases of the brutal rape and murder of young girls. Dr. Hayne's autopsy and Dr. West's bite-mark matching formed the bases for the convictions. Combined, the two men served over 30 years in Mississippi's notorious penitentiary - Parchman Farm - before being exonerated in 2008. Brooks' and Brewer's wrongful convictions lie at the intersection of both the most pressing problem facing this country's criminal justice system - structural injustice built on the historic foundation of race and class as well as with the much more contemporary but equally egregious problem of invalid forensic science. The old problem is inextricably bound up with and exacerbates the new.
In The Cadaver King and the Country Dentist, Radley Balko and Tucker Carrington write a true story of Southern Gothic horror - of two innocent men wrongly convicted of vicious crimes and the legally condoned failures that allowed it to happen. Balko and Carrington will shine a light on the institutional and professional failures that allowed this tragic, astonishing story to happen, identify where it may have happened elsewhere, and show how to prevent it from happening again.
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Mark McCloskey, 63, and his wife Patricia McCloskey, 61, were seen touting an AR-15 rifle and a handgun as protesters marched by their home Sunday
The city’s lead prosecutor has said they are now under investigation
St. Louis prosecutor Kimberly Gardner said Monday she was 'alarmed' that 'peaceful protesters were met by guns'
It comes despite police saying there would be no charges brought against them
An attorney for the couple insists they acted lawfully on their property
He claimed they are supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement
The lawyers were the only ones to file a police report after the confrontation
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8476067/St-Louis-lawyers-brandished-AR-15-handgun-protesters-investigation.html
'I don't feel safe with you driving around my neighborhood': White man 'follows black woman, 21, for TWO MILES' demanding to know what she was doing there
Julia Santos, 21, of Groveland, Massachusetts filmed the moment she confronted a white man who had allegedly followed her in his car for two miles on Monday
The white man, driving a BMW convertible, asked her: 'What are you driving up Juniper Terrace for?'
Santos explained she was picking up free dog food from a person in the area
She asked him if he was following her because she is black
When Santos said she didn't feel safe near him he replied: 'You don’t feel safe? I don’t feel safe with you driving around my neighborhood'
The man finally left her alone when a woman nearby intervened
Cops say they're investigating and have interviewed the man in the clip
Black woman Julia Santos, 21, of Groveland, Massachusetts filmed the moment she confronted a white man (above) who allegedly followed her in his car for two miles on Monday before asking what she was doing in his neighborhood. He told her 'I don’t feel safe with you driving around my neighborhood'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8477523/Black-woman-films-white-man-following-car-two-miles-saying-felt-unsafe.html
ool unauthorized'
Her termination came after video of the employee's confrontation with the family - filmed by Anita Williams-Wright - went viral over the weekend
The nearly-10 minute video shows the mother and her two children out at the hotel's pool in Williamston, North Carolina
Throughout the duration of the video, Williams-Wright shares that she had been on the phone with her mother while her children swam
Williams-Wright shared that the employee came and asked her if she had a room at the hotel before calling police on her when she would not identify herself
The mother shows officer her room key but they run her license plate
'I know I saw his shirt. I saw him leaving earlier,' the employee says about Williams-Wright's son, who is exiting the pool without his shirt
Video has prompted a response from the hotel, who announced that the employee had been fired from their job
'Hampton by Hilton has zero tolerance for racism or discrimination of any kind,' the hotel said in a statement
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8476321/Hampton-Inn-employee-fired-calling-cops-black-guest-two-children.html
I thought the whole point of being able to own guns in America was so that you could defend yourself and your property?
Reading a twitter thread on this story it seems a number of complaints are that the fence keeps people out (segregation from black people) and that who needs a house this big? So another case of undeserved wealth that must be taken and redistributed?
So a mob can turn up to your property demanding it’s a symbol of white privilege, and then play the victim when they have a gun pointed at them and are asked to observe the law and leave the grounds.
Seems a stable protest.
Nobody else complained.