I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders. Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
Just a reminder. We chose to leave the EU. We chose to put a trade border in the Irish Sea. We chose to leave NI in the SM/CU, and subject to EU rules. We invented, and agreed the protocol.
The EU didnt force us into any of the above. We moan about checks between NI/GB, yet there were checks while we were members.
Reminders work both ways. We did choose to leave the EU. It would not be our choice as to whether to rejoin.
Us rejoining would be a terrific advert for the EU. The same benefits are unlikely to be available. This would probably be impossible under a Tory Government, anytime soon.
We did choose to place a trade border in the Irish Sea. But we could remove that
And put it where?
We can choose to take NI out of the Single Market.
And do what exactly? I am stating the blindingly obvious here. There obviously has to be a trade border between us and the EU. If you rule out a land border in Ireland because of the GFA. The only other obvious place is the Irish Sea. A border in the Irish Sea leaves NI on the EU side of the border. Unless of course the whole of the UK was in the SM/CU, but you have already said that this wont happen
The protocol was initiated by us, but it is a 2-way street. It is not working. Hence the need for change.
We could choose to negotiate honestly, rather than legislate unilaterally. It is working well for many companies, some of whom have got the best of both worlds. The DUP object to the existence of a border, rather than how it is working.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
Customs Union Will Not Solve Irish Border Issues
Following reports that the UK is edging closer to adopting a customs union with the European Union as the model for the future relationship, the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health (CIEH) has warned that a customs union alone will not solve all of the issues around the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.
Agreeing a customs union with the EU would mean the continuation of zero tariffs on goods being traded across the Irish border. Whilst alleviating concerns around tariffs and customs, this arrangement would do nothing to resolve the key issue of the need for product safety and standards checks, especially for food.
It is the UK's current membership of the single market that harmonises safety and quality standards with the rest of the EU. Only by also remaining in the Single Market could the existing situation of zero checks on the Northern Irish border largely continue in its current form.
If the UK were to leave the Single Market and solely strike a customs union with the EU, then other arrangements and deals would have to be made to avoid the need for new product standard checks at the border.
Why am I not surprised that you are blaming the EU before the facts are known?
The facts are known.
Charity bike ride for Prostate Cancer.
The wonderful EU believes that the charity bike riders might be bringing their bikes in to sell them, so are charging £7k Import duty on the bikes.
My point is (and always has been) not that the EU are evil. Just that they are no less petty and mean-minded than our own Government.
You obviously know more than them.
He added that he and other politicians had been unable to get in touch with the Spanish authorities, leaving them "totally in the dark" about why the fee had been imposed, but said that they'll "keep on working to get the money back" for the club.
Why am I not surprised that you are blaming the EU before the facts are known?
The facts are known.
Charity bike ride for Prostate Cancer.
The wonderful EU believes that the charity bike riders might be bringing their bikes in to sell them, so are charging £7k Import duty on the bikes.
My point is (and always has been) not that the EU are evil. Just that they are no less petty and mean-minded than our own Government.
You obviously know more than them.
He added that he and other politicians had been unable to get in touch with the Spanish authorities, leaving them "totally in the dark" about why the fee had been imposed, but said that they'll "keep on working to get the money back" for the club.
No. I just read all the article. Including the bits that show Spain/the EU in a poor light.
"Riders said they were told to pay an €8,500 (£7,330) tariff by Spanish border officials when they collected their bikes."
"Huw Irranca-Davies MS said the charges had "no good reason" behind them, and suggested they could be a result of post-Brexit import fees, which he believes were wrongly applied to the riders."
"In a letter to the Spanish customs authority, Huw Irranca-Davies MS and Chris Elmore MP said the charges "negated the very purpose of the charity bike ride - to raise funds for Prostate Cymru which is a cause dear to so many people - but also has left a very sour feeling in relations".
They went on to demand a "full and immediate response explaining why these charges have been made"."
Why else do you believe Spanish Customs have imposed a charge?
Or do you prefer to support the EU in preference to a Welsh Cancer charity?
Why am I not surprised that you are blaming the EU before the facts are known?
The facts are known.
Charity bike ride for Prostate Cancer.
The wonderful EU believes that the charity bike riders might be bringing their bikes in to sell them, so are charging £7k Import duty on the bikes.
My point is (and always has been) not that the EU are evil. Just that they are no less petty and mean-minded than our own Government.
You obviously know more than them.
He added that he and other politicians had been unable to get in touch with the Spanish authorities, leaving them "totally in the dark" about why the fee had been imposed, but said that they'll "keep on working to get the money back" for the club.
No. I just read all the article. Including the bits that show Spain/the EU in a poor light.
"Riders said they were told to pay an €8,500 (£7,330) tariff by Spanish border officials when they collected their bikes."
"Huw Irranca-Davies MS said the charges had "no good reason" behind them, and suggested they could be a result of post-Brexit import fees, which he believes were wrongly applied to the riders."
"In a letter to the Spanish customs authority, Huw Irranca-Davies MS and Chris Elmore MP said the charges "negated the very purpose of the charity bike ride - to raise funds for Prostate Cymru which is a cause dear to so many people - but also has left a very sour feeling in relations".
They went on to demand a "full and immediate response explaining why these charges have been made"."
Why else do you believe Spanish Customs have imposed a charge?
Or do you prefer to support the EU in preference to a Welsh Cancer charity?
As I said earlier, I am surprised that a Solicitor would make those comments without knowing the facts. You are assuming the suggestions are true, and without any explanation of the charges.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. The rules are what was agreed.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. No. It is not part of the EU. There is a simple solution to avoiding the Single Market Rules. Remove it from the Single Market The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. So what? Still part of the UK. Much bigger spaces separate Greenland from Denmark, French Guiana from France etc-but none of those places have these handicaps placed on them. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Yes. But 1 party has unilaterally changed the rules. No better than what the UK is threatening at various junctures. Difference is, they have actually done it, not just talked about it. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. Always winners and losers, whichever way you do things. Doesn't make it right. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. As should the UK. Things are not working. For a variety of reasons. Cannot expect the UK to be hamstrung by the other side being free to change, while we are not. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Of course not. But, when rules affect another country, that country must re-evaluate whether the deal should continue. Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. Yes. There is a distinct possibility that this will be the biggest recruitment drive for sectarian paramilitaries since the 1970s The rules are what was agreed.
So. Your position is that we are bound by agreements and the EU are not? What a ridiculous position to take.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. No. It is not part of the EU. There is a simple solution to avoiding the Single Market Rules. Remove it from the Single Market The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. So what? Still part of the UK. Much bigger spaces separate Greenland from Denmark, French Guiana from France etc-but none of those places have these handicaps placed on them. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Yes. But 1 party has unilaterally changed the rules. No better than what the UK is threatening at various junctures. Difference is, they have actually done it, not just talked about it. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. Always winners and losers, whichever way you do things. Doesn't make it right. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. As should the UK. Things are not working. For a variety of reasons. Cannot expect the UK to be hamstrung by the other side being free to change, while we are not. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Of course not. But, when rules affect another country, that country must re-evaluate whether the deal should continue. Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. Yes. There is a distinct possibility that this will be the biggest recruitment drive for sectarian paramilitaries since the 1970s The rules are what was agreed.
So. Your position is that we are bound by agreements and the EU are not? What a ridiculous position to take.
Removing NI from the SM would increase the number of checks rather than reduce them. There has to be a border between two different customs territories. WTO rules insist on this. The EU has, due to changing circumstances amended their tariff quota with the whole world. The UK is introducing legislation to breach an agreement it signed the other day. The UK has refused to end the grace periods, which were also part of the agreement. I really cant see how free access to the SM makes a business worse off. If it did why were we members for nearly 50 years. NI were members all that time, so nothing has changed for them. The change in circumstances for the EU was a war in Europe, what is our excuse? We could replace the protocol by honestly negotiating an alternative. If there was one. We can also decide whether or not to export steel to the EU, including NI, or not. Your summary of my position is not true. The EU have bent over backwards to reduce the number of checks. The fact that this is impossible has nothing to do with the EU. There has to be a border. The Unionists wont wear one. It doesnt help that Boris lied to them and conned them. If Stormont voted against the protocol in 2024, what do you think should replace it? Where are you going to put the border?
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. No. It is not part of the EU. There is a simple solution to avoiding the Single Market Rules. Remove it from the Single Market The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. So what? Still part of the UK. Much bigger spaces separate Greenland from Denmark, French Guiana from France etc-but none of those places have these handicaps placed on them. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Yes. But 1 party has unilaterally changed the rules. No better than what the UK is threatening at various junctures. Difference is, they have actually done it, not just talked about it. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. Always winners and losers, whichever way you do things. Doesn't make it right. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. As should the UK. Things are not working. For a variety of reasons. Cannot expect the UK to be hamstrung by the other side being free to change, while we are not. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Of course not. But, when rules affect another country, that country must re-evaluate whether the deal should continue. Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. Yes. There is a distinct possibility that this will be the biggest recruitment drive for sectarian paramilitaries since the 1970s The rules are what was agreed.
So. Your position is that we are bound by agreements and the EU are not? What a ridiculous position to take.
Removing NI from the SM would increase the number of checks rather than reduce them. There has to be a border between two different customs territories. WTO rules insist on this. The EU has, due to changing circumstances amended their tariff quota with the whole world. The UK is introducing legislation to breach an agreement it signed the other day. The UK has refused to end the grace periods, which were also part of the agreement. I really cant see how free access to the SM makes a business worse off. If it did why were we members for nearly 50 years. NI were members all that time, so nothing has changed for them. The change in circumstances for the EU was a war in Europe, what is our excuse? We could replace the protocol by honestly negotiating an alternative. If there was one. We can also decide whether or not to export steel to the EU, including NI, or not. Your summary of my position is not true. The EU have bent over backwards to reduce the number of checks. The fact that this is impossible has nothing to do with the EU. There has to be a border. The Unionists wont wear one. It doesnt help that Boris lied to them and conned them. If Stormont voted against the protocol in 2024, what do you think should replace it? Where are you going to put the border?
Unionism hopes of overturning protocol with Stormont vote 'extremely far fetched'
However, according to Fact Check NI, Mr Stalford's claim that the vote would overturn the protocol is inaccurate, as it only governs limited changes.
In a scenario in which opponents of the Irish Sea border win a majority and the assembly withholds consent, the protocol will continue to apply in its existing form for a further two years.
"In this case, the UK-EU Joint Committee established under the Withdrawal Agreement to oversee the protocol will make recommendations to the UK and the EU on alternatives to Articles 5–10 of the protocol for avoiding a hard border and protecting the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement," Fact Check NI says.
"It is then up to the UK and EU to negotiate new arrangements that replace Articles 5–10 but which still meet the objectives of the protocol, including avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland."
Fact Check NI says that even if a simple majority votes against giving consent, the "remainder of the protocol still stands".
But according to Prof Tonge there is little prospect of unionism gaining the necessary majority in the assembly to trigger a review of the protocol.
He said the consent vote was the least likely to succeed of the "three-point plant" cited by Mr Stalford.
"To achieve the 45 votes required would be an extraordinary feat because it's impossible to see where the gains are going to come from unless there is complete implosion within nationalism," the author of DUP - From Power to Protest said.
"An increased percentage of the population is no longer voting for unionist parties and all movement is towards the centre so it would be extremely far fetched to think that somehow unionism can make up that ground."
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. No. It is not part of the EU. There is a simple solution to avoiding the Single Market Rules. Remove it from the Single Market The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. So what? Still part of the UK. Much bigger spaces separate Greenland from Denmark, French Guiana from France etc-but none of those places have these handicaps placed on them. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Yes. But 1 party has unilaterally changed the rules. No better than what the UK is threatening at various junctures. Difference is, they have actually done it, not just talked about it. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. Always winners and losers, whichever way you do things. Doesn't make it right. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. As should the UK. Things are not working. For a variety of reasons. Cannot expect the UK to be hamstrung by the other side being free to change, while we are not. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Of course not. But, when rules affect another country, that country must re-evaluate whether the deal should continue. Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. Yes. There is a distinct possibility that this will be the biggest recruitment drive for sectarian paramilitaries since the 1970s The rules are what was agreed.
So. Your position is that we are bound by agreements and the EU are not? What a ridiculous position to take.
Removing NI from the SM would increase the number of checks rather than reduce them. There has to be a border between two different customs territories. WTO rules insist on this. The EU has, due to changing circumstances amended their tariff quota with the whole world. The UK is introducing legislation to breach an agreement it signed the other day. The UK has refused to end the grace periods, which were also part of the agreement. I really cant see how free access to the SM makes a business worse off. If it did why were we members for nearly 50 years. NI were members all that time, so nothing has changed for them. The change in circumstances for the EU was a war in Europe, what is our excuse? We could replace the protocol by honestly negotiating an alternative. If there was one. We can also decide whether or not to export steel to the EU, including NI, or not. Your summary of my position is not true. The EU have bent over backwards to reduce the number of checks. The fact that this is impossible has nothing to do with the EU. There has to be a border. The Unionists wont wear one. It doesnt help that Boris lied to them and conned them. If Stormont voted against the protocol in 2024, what do you think should replace it? Where are you going to put the border?
None of this is true in the actual world we live in.
Greenland left the EU because it refused to abide by EU fishing quotas. It does not abide by EU Law, yet retains lots of rights, such as freedom of movement, both to Denmark and the wider European Union.
Trade barriers? None. 92.7% of exports go to the EU. Most of it is the fish that caused them to leave the EU in the first place. No border between 2 distinct customs territories. No rules whatsoever.
Trade barriers on our side of the border with Ireland? None. Irish people free to live and work here. Free movement of goods on our side of the border.
The EU most certainly have not "bent over backwards". Compare & contrast checks on Northern Ireland with every other territory where only part of a country is in the EU.
There has to be a border. But there does not have to be friction.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. No. It is not part of the EU. There is a simple solution to avoiding the Single Market Rules. Remove it from the Single Market The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. So what? Still part of the UK. Much bigger spaces separate Greenland from Denmark, French Guiana from France etc-but none of those places have these handicaps placed on them. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Yes. But 1 party has unilaterally changed the rules. No better than what the UK is threatening at various junctures. Difference is, they have actually done it, not just talked about it. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. Always winners and losers, whichever way you do things. Doesn't make it right. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. As should the UK. Things are not working. For a variety of reasons. Cannot expect the UK to be hamstrung by the other side being free to change, while we are not. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Of course not. But, when rules affect another country, that country must re-evaluate whether the deal should continue. Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. Yes. There is a distinct possibility that this will be the biggest recruitment drive for sectarian paramilitaries since the 1970s The rules are what was agreed.
So. Your position is that we are bound by agreements and the EU are not? What a ridiculous position to take.
Removing NI from the SM would increase the number of checks rather than reduce them. There has to be a border between two different customs territories. WTO rules insist on this. The EU has, due to changing circumstances amended their tariff quota with the whole world. The UK is introducing legislation to breach an agreement it signed the other day. The UK has refused to end the grace periods, which were also part of the agreement. I really cant see how free access to the SM makes a business worse off. If it did why were we members for nearly 50 years. NI were members all that time, so nothing has changed for them. The change in circumstances for the EU was a war in Europe, what is our excuse? We could replace the protocol by honestly negotiating an alternative. If there was one. We can also decide whether or not to export steel to the EU, including NI, or not. Your summary of my position is not true. The EU have bent over backwards to reduce the number of checks. The fact that this is impossible has nothing to do with the EU. There has to be a border. The Unionists wont wear one. It doesnt help that Boris lied to them and conned them. If Stormont voted against the protocol in 2024, what do you think should replace it? Where are you going to put the border?
None of this is true in the actual world we live in.
Greenland left the EU because it refused to abide by EU fishing quotas. It does not abide by EU Law, yet retains lots of rights, such as freedom of movement, both to Denmark and the wider European Union.
Trade barriers? None. 92.7% of exports go to the EU. Most of it is the fish that caused them to leave the EU in the first place. No border between 2 distinct customs territories. No rules whatsoever.
Trade barriers on our side of the border with Ireland? None. Irish people free to live and work here. Free movement of goods on our side of the border.
The EU most certainly have not "bent over backwards". Compare & contrast checks on Northern Ireland with every other territory where only part of a country is in the EU.
There has to be a border. But there does not have to be friction.
They have offered to reduce checks by around 80%. Why would you compare the UKs relationship with the EU, with that of Greenland?
Greenland and the European Union
Greenland, an autonomous territory within the Kingdom of Denmark (which also includes the territories of Denmark and Faroe Islands) is one of the EU members’ overseas countries and territories (OCT) associated to the European Union. Greenland receives funding from the EU for sustainable development and has signed agreements increasing cooperation with the EU.
The associated relationship with the EU also means that all citizens of the Realm of Denmark residing in Greenland (Greenlandic nationals) are EU citizens.[1] This allows Greenlanders to move and reside freely within the EU.
OCT status Greenland is one of the Overseas Countries and Territories (OCT) of the EU due to its political relations to Denmark. As a result, Greenland has some integration with the EU's internal market via association agreements. It is also within the EU's common external tariff but they may charge customs in a non-discriminatory manner. Greenlandic citizens have EU citizenship.[5] OCT nationals can be granted the right to vote for and participate in the election of the European Parliament, subject to the conditions defined by the related member states in compliance with Community law.[6]
Up to 2006, all EU funds to Greenland (then €42.8 million per year) went via the EU–Greenland fishing agreement. Between 2007 and 2013, the EU provided €25 million per year outside of fishing.[7] It has been given aid since it pulled out of the EU (see below) in 1985 to roughly the same amount it was previously receiving in EU structural funds (which it lost the right to receive due to its secession). This amounted to about 7% of Greenland's budget. The amount paid via the fishing agreement was in return for EU vessels fishing in Greenland's waters and to help restructure Greenland's fishing fleet. However, this deal was struck down by the European Court of Auditors, who felt the amount the EU was paying was too high for the quantity of fish caught.[8]
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. No. It is not part of the EU. There is a simple solution to avoiding the Single Market Rules. Remove it from the Single Market The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. So what? Still part of the UK. Much bigger spaces separate Greenland from Denmark, French Guiana from France etc-but none of those places have these handicaps placed on them. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Yes. But 1 party has unilaterally changed the rules. No better than what the UK is threatening at various junctures. Difference is, they have actually done it, not just talked about it. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. Always winners and losers, whichever way you do things. Doesn't make it right. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. As should the UK. Things are not working. For a variety of reasons. Cannot expect the UK to be hamstrung by the other side being free to change, while we are not. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Of course not. But, when rules affect another country, that country must re-evaluate whether the deal should continue. Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. Yes. There is a distinct possibility that this will be the biggest recruitment drive for sectarian paramilitaries since the 1970s The rules are what was agreed.
So. Your position is that we are bound by agreements and the EU are not? What a ridiculous position to take.
Removing NI from the SM would increase the number of checks rather than reduce them. There has to be a border between two different customs territories. WTO rules insist on this. The EU has, due to changing circumstances amended their tariff quota with the whole world. The UK is introducing legislation to breach an agreement it signed the other day. The UK has refused to end the grace periods, which were also part of the agreement. I really cant see how free access to the SM makes a business worse off. If it did why were we members for nearly 50 years. NI were members all that time, so nothing has changed for them. The change in circumstances for the EU was a war in Europe, what is our excuse? We could replace the protocol by honestly negotiating an alternative. If there was one. We can also decide whether or not to export steel to the EU, including NI, or not. Your summary of my position is not true. The EU have bent over backwards to reduce the number of checks. The fact that this is impossible has nothing to do with the EU. There has to be a border. The Unionists wont wear one. It doesnt help that Boris lied to them and conned them. If Stormont voted against the protocol in 2024, what do you think should replace it? Where are you going to put the border?
None of this is true in the actual world we live in.
Greenland left the EU because it refused to abide by EU fishing quotas. It does not abide by EU Law, yet retains lots of rights, such as freedom of movement, both to Denmark and the wider European Union.
Trade barriers? None. 92.7% of exports go to the EU. Most of it is the fish that caused them to leave the EU in the first place. No border between 2 distinct customs territories. No rules whatsoever.
Trade barriers on our side of the border with Ireland? None. Irish people free to live and work here. Free movement of goods on our side of the border.
The EU most certainly have not "bent over backwards". Compare & contrast checks on Northern Ireland with every other territory where only part of a country is in the EU.
There has to be a border. But there does not have to be friction.
I think you are truly grasping at straws now. The simple facts are that we are refusing to honour our agreement with the EU. That is a fact. If we wanted a Greenland deal we should have asked for one. Another fact is that the WTO rules insist on a border. So if we ripped up all the EU agreements and traded with them on WTO rules, a border will still be required. Here is one last fact. The rules that the EU want implemented, are the rules that we agreed to.
The Irish Sea border is causing lots of hassle. So if we dont have to have a border why on earth would we? Not even Boris is that stupid. We dont have to have a border, we just put it in place to pi55 off the Unionists.
I have just got around to reading the in-depth article signposted in the msn article.
This is madness.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Not the EU. But the steel tariff rules mean that Northern Ireland has to pay a 25% tariff on UK steel imports. And 0% on EU imports. Why?
Because of a unilateral decision by the EU.
So-and I struggle to believe this-a sovereign nation-the UK-has to pay a tariff to ship goods to another part of the UK. Because the EU says so. And we have to pay a tariff to the EU regardless of whether the goods ever cross the border into the EU. While steel via Ireland is automatically cheaper.
So-not only do we have to pay for the privilege of policing the border on behalf of the EU. Purely for the benefit of the EU. We have to pay the EU for steel which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Not if it crosses into the EU.
If anyone genuinely believes that this isn't a clear breach of the Good Friday Agreement, then they live in a different world to me.
Isnt this called having your cake and eating it?
Didnt Boris put a trade border in the Irish Sea?
Didnt NI remain in the SM/CU?
Wasnt this done in the name of preserving the GFA, and avoiding a hard border in Ireland?
Didnt this give NI the best of both worlds?
Short answer. No.
This is the EU having its cake and eating it.
The agreement included a clause which would avoid the need for this tariff. This has been cancelled in June by the EU unilaterally.
Try reading your own articles and you will see what I mean. They have used the situation in Ukraine as an excuse to increase the price of UK steel. In the UK.
That is a very biased interpretation.
Should we have made the EU swear that they wouldnt change any rules ever, before we left. As we now wish to continue the grace periods for ever, maybe we should have made them swear to not changing the rules for us after we left, from when we were members. We always seem to want the penny and the bun.
As the article says, this has come into effect because NI follows EU customs rules, as per the protocol. This is something you continually ignore. When the EU introduce rules affecting third countries, they obviously affect the UK because we have left. When the UK export to NI, we are effectively exporting to the EU. We were in fact using the UK tariff quota to the EU, for these exports. Where we find a rule that doesnt suit us, we wish to scream like stuck pigs Yet we ignore the thousands of rules that are in our favour. These tariffs apply to all other countries, not just us.
Had we gone for the backstop, this rule wouldnt have applied as the UK would have remained intact. It only applies because of the protocol, which we signed. You surely cant expect the EU not to change any rules ever. Or even just change rules that dont affect us.
Where would we have been if the EU had refused to agree to an Irish Sea border? Shouldnt they be charging us pro rata for NI membership?
It is unlikely to affect the construction industry in NI, as they are more likely to buy from the EU, and avoid the tariff. Something that may apply to many more products in the future.
The EU is the largest Protectionist organisation in the World.
That we were members of for almost 50 years. We helped write the rules, and very rarely voted against of any of them.
That is its prerogative. What is not is that we should be expected to pay to be their police force, and to pay them a tariff for goods that are never going to the EU.
I believe the EU intended to police the NI side of the border, but we declined their offer. If there were an Irish land border, the EU would police the other side.
Put simply, Northern Ireland was temporarily put into the Customs Union for political expediency. So the rest of the UK could leave the EU. Something which had been completely ignored by both Leavers and Remainers when it mattered.
I dont believe it was ignored. Theresa May came up with the backstop. The ERG swore by technological solutions that didnt exist. Boris thought the protocol was a better solution, and agreed to it. Seemingly without knowing how it would actually work. I am not sure how temporary it was meant to be. It was put in place until Stormont vote against it. If they did, what could replace it? Where would the EU/UK border go? The fact is that many NI companies are benefitting from being part of the EU, completely free of charge. If I owned a construction company in NI, I would purchase all my products from those that could supply the quality required at the cheapest price. Whether those suppliers were in the EU or UK. Irrespective of whether the prices were affected by tariffs or not. We just want to focus on sausage wars, and steel tariffs.
Now? It is not Northern Ireland that has the best of both worlds. It is the EU. Getting us to pay to police their protectionist borders.
Our insistence.
Why? We are perfectly willing to allow frictionless trade both sides of the Border. And good luck to the EU trying to prevent that. Because it has always happened at a local level. And always will.
NI is still in the SM/CU, the rest of the UK isnt.
Going forward, the UK should not be paying for all this. There are lots of options:-
There always were lots of options, but we agreed to the protocol.
1. Northern Ireland reverts to being in the UK for trade purposes. If the EU insists on providing trade barriers, so be it. That is not our problem. That is the EU's. 2. Northern Ireland reverts to being part of all-Ireland. Plenty of support from Sinn Fein etc for all this. Would love to know what the plan is to stop Loyalist paramilitaries torching the place. And where a lot of people are going to live. Because it will just be 1921 in reverse. 3. The whole of the UK joins the Customs Union at 1 level or another. The sensible solution. The 1 I would prefer. But it is not going to happen.
There is no simple solution. With Ireland, there never is. But pretending that everything is fine the way it is currently is just plain wrong.
Change is inevitable. And rather scary.
I have not said everything is fine. I believe that we should honour our agreements. Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them. Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool. Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it. When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK. This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU. They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed. This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
I also believe we should honour agreements.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
Ni remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules. No. It is not part of the EU. There is a simple solution to avoiding the Single Market Rules. Remove it from the Single Market The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB. So what? Still part of the UK. Much bigger spaces separate Greenland from Denmark, French Guiana from France etc-but none of those places have these handicaps placed on them. The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota. Yes. But 1 party has unilaterally changed the rules. No better than what the UK is threatening at various junctures. Difference is, they have actually done it, not just talked about it. Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol. Always winners and losers, whichever way you do things. Doesn't make it right. I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change. As should the UK. Things are not working. For a variety of reasons. Cannot expect the UK to be hamstrung by the other side being free to change, while we are not. You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever? Of course not. But, when rules affect another country, that country must re-evaluate whether the deal should continue. Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024. Yes. There is a distinct possibility that this will be the biggest recruitment drive for sectarian paramilitaries since the 1970s The rules are what was agreed.
So. Your position is that we are bound by agreements and the EU are not? What a ridiculous position to take.
Removing NI from the SM would increase the number of checks rather than reduce them. There has to be a border between two different customs territories. WTO rules insist on this. The EU has, due to changing circumstances amended their tariff quota with the whole world. The UK is introducing legislation to breach an agreement it signed the other day. The UK has refused to end the grace periods, which were also part of the agreement. I really cant see how free access to the SM makes a business worse off. If it did why were we members for nearly 50 years. NI were members all that time, so nothing has changed for them. The change in circumstances for the EU was a war in Europe, what is our excuse? We could replace the protocol by honestly negotiating an alternative. If there was one. We can also decide whether or not to export steel to the EU, including NI, or not. Your summary of my position is not true. The EU have bent over backwards to reduce the number of checks. The fact that this is impossible has nothing to do with the EU. There has to be a border. The Unionists wont wear one. It doesnt help that Boris lied to them and conned them. If Stormont voted against the protocol in 2024, what do you think should replace it? Where are you going to put the border?
None of this is true in the actual world we live in.
Greenland left the EU because it refused to abide by EU fishing quotas. It does not abide by EU Law, yet retains lots of rights, such as freedom of movement, both to Denmark and the wider European Union.
Trade barriers? None. 92.7% of exports go to the EU. Most of it is the fish that caused them to leave the EU in the first place. No border between 2 distinct customs territories. No rules whatsoever.
Trade barriers on our side of the border with Ireland? None. Irish people free to live and work here. Free movement of goods on our side of the border.
The EU most certainly have not "bent over backwards". Compare & contrast checks on Northern Ireland with every other territory where only part of a country is in the EU.
There has to be a border. But there does not have to be friction.
As Brexit goes, so goes Greenland’s relationship with the EU
The future of Greenland’s trading relationship with the United Kingdom begins in Brussels.
Greenland is not an EU member, but, as a part of the Kingdom of Denmark, it is part of the the union’s group of Overseas Countries and Territories and can export to union members tariff-free.
Greenland, though, is concerned that uncertainty over Brexit, the UK’s planned secession from the EU, will mean that it will have to begin paying tariffs to export to one if its most important trading partners. The loss of tariff-free access, according to GE, a business lobby, could result in a 17 percent fall in exports to the UK.
This would hit the fishing industry — which accounts for a third of Greenland’s economic activity — especially hard, particularly when it comes to sales of shrimp: Royal Greenland and Polar Seafood, the two largest seafood exporters, sell 30 percent of the ready-to-eat shrimp they produce to the UK.
What is the future of Greenland’s trading relationship with the UK? The future of Greenland’s trading relationship with the United Kingdom begins in Brussels. Greenland is not an EU member, but, as a part of the Kingdom of Denmark, it is part of the the union’s group of Overseas Countries and Territories and can export to union members tariff-free. Reference: www.arctictoday.com/brexit-goes-goes-greenlands-relationship-eu/
Greenland and the European Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_and_the_European_Union Greenland, an autonomous territory within the Kingdom of Denmark (which also includes the territories of Denmark and Faroe Islands) is one of the EU members’ overseas countries and territories (OCT) associated to the European Union. Greenland receives funding from the EU for sustainable … See more
Greenland Representation to the European Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_Representation_to_the_European_Union This "special case" provided a fisheries agreement between the parties in which the European Community and later the European Union kept its fishing rights and Greenland kept its financial …
If Algeria and Greenland can leave the EU with a deal, so can the UK
The UK may be the only member-state to activate article 50, but it is not the first country to seek to leave the EU. Algeria left in 1962, Greenland in 1985, and St Barthélémy in 2012. None of them shared a land border with the EU and the 499 kilometres of the Irish border presents a far greater challenge. But there are precedents from these previous exits and the EU’s current land borders that might point to a solution?
Comments
It is working well for many companies, some of whom have got the best of both worlds.
The DUP object to the existence of a border, rather than how it is working.
Following reports that the UK is edging closer to adopting a customs union with the European Union as the model for the future relationship, the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health (CIEH) has warned that a customs union alone will not solve all of the issues around the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.
Agreeing a customs union with the EU would mean the continuation of zero tariffs on goods being traded across the Irish border. Whilst alleviating concerns around tariffs and customs, this arrangement would do nothing to resolve the key issue of the need for product safety and standards checks, especially for food.
It is the UK's current membership of the single market that harmonises safety and quality standards with the rest of the EU. Only by also remaining in the Single Market could the existing situation of zero checks on the Northern Irish border largely continue in its current form.
If the UK were to leave the Single Market and solely strike a customs union with the EU, then other arrangements and deals would have to be made to avoid the need for new product standard checks at the border.
https://www.cieh.org/news/press-releases/2019/customs-union-will-not-solve-irish-border-issues/
CAN WE AVOID A BORDER IN THE IRISH SEA WITHOUT BUILDING ONE ON THE ISLAND OF IRELAND?
https://upgrade2efta.uk/can-we-avoid-a-border-in-the-irish-sea-without-building-one-on-the-island-of-ireland/
Brexit: Irish Sea border issues foreseen when deal was done
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55952459
Boris Johnson's 'false promises' over Irish Sea border could further 'inflame' situation in Northern Ireland
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/boris-johnsons-false-promises-over-irish-sea-border-could-further-inflame-situation-in-northern-ireland-40335640.html
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/kent-brewery-hailed-as-brexit-export-champion-has-one-eu-customer-left/ar-AA11rL6s?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=44e5ab0daaaa4d40888ad88636943c4c
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/liz-truss-faces-instant-brexit-crisis-as-sunak-and-mordaunt-turn-down-key-cabinet-role/ar-AA11u2Pa?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=92405572bb7c4180a0d7b32ec38dda37
About the EU picking on the Welsh Charity sector.
Surprised you haven't highlighted this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62799594
Charity bike ride for Prostate Cancer.
The wonderful EU believes that the charity bike riders might be bringing their bikes in to sell them, so are charging £7k Import duty on the bikes.
My point is (and always has been) not that the EU are evil. Just that they are no less petty and mean-minded than our own Government.
You obviously know more than them.
He added that he and other politicians had been unable to get in touch with the Spanish authorities, leaving them "totally in the dark" about why the fee had been imposed, but said that they'll "keep on working to get the money back" for the club.
"Riders said they were told to pay an €8,500 (£7,330) tariff by Spanish border officials when they collected their bikes."
"Huw Irranca-Davies MS said the charges had "no good reason" behind them, and suggested they could be a result of post-Brexit import fees, which he believes were wrongly applied to the riders."
"In a letter to the Spanish customs authority, Huw Irranca-Davies MS and Chris Elmore MP said the charges "negated the very purpose of the charity bike ride - to raise funds for Prostate Cymru which is a cause dear to so many people - but also has left a very sour feeling in relations".
They went on to demand a "full and immediate response explaining why these charges have been made"."
Why else do you believe Spanish Customs have imposed a charge?
Or do you prefer to support the EU in preference to a Welsh Cancer charity?
You are assuming the suggestions are true, and without any explanation of the charges.
I believe that we should honour our agreements.
Where this proves difficult, we should honestly negotiate our way out of them.
Anyone that maintains Brexit is done is a fool.
Perhaps we need a Labour Government to sort it out, but they are not saying very much about it.
When we are eventually forced to end the grace periods, there will be more problems rather than less.
I am really surprised you chose this story to argue over.
We have people in the UK that will stamp their foot, and shout from the rooftops that NI is part of the UK.
This is despite the Irish Sea border, that NI remains in the SM/CU, and is subject to EU rules.
The same people will ignore the fact that we were able to export steel, tariff free to NI, by using the TRQ for UK exports to the EU.
They ignore this and dont argue about NI being in the EU, because it was to our advantage.
The same people will claim that the EU is victimising and persecuting the UK, when the rules are changed.
This is despite the fact that circumstances have changed, and the new rules affect every non EU country in the world.
When we were exporting steel tariff free to NI using our EU quota, nobody said a word.
Bring back the backstop.
Starting with the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Continuing through to the Good Friday Agreement, which states that neither Unionist or Nationalist should be disadvantaged, which is clearly not happening when different rules apply in relation to NI trade.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Any temporary trade borders do not stop that being the case. In addition, Ireland has a long-standing freedom of movement with the UK, which predates the EU. It is just not on that all the rules only work one way.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs when we have to pay a tariff to the EU to "export" steel purely within the UK. Northern Ireland is not part of the EU.
Cannot understand how you can both maintain the position that ther UK cannot seek to alter agreements, and yet the EU apparently can with impunity.
We need to fully reintegrate NI back into the UK. Or hold a vote as to whether it wishes to be part of the UK or Ireland.
But not this pathetic state of affairs.
The border in the Irish sea separates NI from GB.
The article clearly states that our steel exports to NI, were included in our EU quota.
Many companies claim to be better off as a result of the protocol.
I expect the EU to amend their rules, where circumstances change.
You surely dont expect the EU to never change their rules ever?
Stormont get a vote on the protocol in 2024.
The rules are what was agreed.
There has to be a border between two different customs territories.
WTO rules insist on this.
The EU has, due to changing circumstances amended their tariff quota with the whole world.
The UK is introducing legislation to breach an agreement it signed the other day.
The UK has refused to end the grace periods, which were also part of the agreement.
I really cant see how free access to the SM makes a business worse off.
If it did why were we members for nearly 50 years.
NI were members all that time, so nothing has changed for them.
The change in circumstances for the EU was a war in Europe, what is our excuse?
We could replace the protocol by honestly negotiating an alternative.
If there was one.
We can also decide whether or not to export steel to the EU, including NI, or not.
Your summary of my position is not true.
The EU have bent over backwards to reduce the number of checks.
The fact that this is impossible has nothing to do with the EU.
There has to be a border.
The Unionists wont wear one.
It doesnt help that Boris lied to them and conned them.
If Stormont voted against the protocol in 2024, what do you think should replace it?
Where are you going to put the border?
However, according to Fact Check NI, Mr Stalford's claim that the vote would overturn the protocol is inaccurate, as it only governs limited changes.
In a scenario in which opponents of the Irish Sea border win a majority and the assembly withholds consent, the protocol will continue to apply in its existing form for a further two years.
"In this case, the UK-EU Joint Committee established under the Withdrawal Agreement to oversee the protocol will make recommendations to the UK and the EU on alternatives to Articles 5–10 of the protocol for avoiding a hard border and protecting the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement," Fact Check NI says.
"It is then up to the UK and EU to negotiate new arrangements that replace Articles 5–10 but which still meet the objectives of the protocol, including avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland."
Fact Check NI says that even if a simple majority votes against giving consent, the "remainder of the protocol still stands".
But according to Prof Tonge there is little prospect of unionism gaining the necessary majority in the assembly to trigger a review of the protocol.
He said the consent vote was the least likely to succeed of the "three-point plant" cited by Mr Stalford.
"To achieve the 45 votes required would be an extraordinary feat because it's impossible to see where the gains are going to come from unless there is complete implosion within nationalism," the author of DUP - From Power to Protest said.
"An increased percentage of the population is no longer voting for unionist parties and all movement is towards the centre so it would be extremely far fetched to think that somehow unionism can make up that ground."
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/05/20/news/unionism-hopes-of-overturning-protocol-with-stormont-vote-are-extremely-far-fetched--2328024/
Greenland left the EU because it refused to abide by EU fishing quotas.
It does not abide by EU Law, yet retains lots of rights, such as freedom of movement, both to Denmark and the wider European Union.
Trade barriers? None. 92.7% of exports go to the EU. Most of it is the fish that caused them to leave the EU in the first place. No border between 2 distinct customs territories. No rules whatsoever.
Trade barriers on our side of the border with Ireland? None. Irish people free to live and work here. Free movement of goods on our side of the border.
The EU most certainly have not "bent over backwards". Compare & contrast checks on Northern Ireland with every other territory where only part of a country is in the EU.
There has to be a border. But there does not have to be friction.
Why would you compare the UKs relationship with the EU, with that of Greenland?
Greenland and the European Union
Greenland, an autonomous territory within the Kingdom of Denmark (which also includes the territories of Denmark and Faroe Islands) is one of the EU members’ overseas countries and territories (OCT) associated to the European Union. Greenland receives funding from the EU for sustainable development and has signed agreements increasing cooperation with the EU.
The associated relationship with the EU also means that all citizens of the Realm of Denmark residing in Greenland (Greenlandic nationals) are EU citizens.[1] This allows Greenlanders to move and reside freely within the EU.
OCT status
Greenland is one of the Overseas Countries and Territories (OCT) of the EU due to its political relations to Denmark. As a result, Greenland has some integration with the EU's internal market via association agreements. It is also within the EU's common external tariff but they may charge customs in a non-discriminatory manner. Greenlandic citizens have EU citizenship.[5] OCT nationals can be granted the right to vote for and participate in the election of the European Parliament, subject to the conditions defined by the related member states in compliance with Community law.[6]
Up to 2006, all EU funds to Greenland (then €42.8 million per year) went via the EU–Greenland fishing agreement. Between 2007 and 2013, the EU provided €25 million per year outside of fishing.[7] It has been given aid since it pulled out of the EU (see below) in 1985 to roughly the same amount it was previously receiving in EU structural funds (which it lost the right to receive due to its secession). This amounted to about 7% of Greenland's budget. The amount paid via the fishing agreement was in return for EU vessels fishing in Greenland's waters and to help restructure Greenland's fishing fleet. However, this deal was struck down by the European Court of Auditors, who felt the amount the EU was paying was too high for the quantity of fish caught.[8]
The simple facts are that we are refusing to honour our agreement with the EU.
That is a fact.
If we wanted a Greenland deal we should have asked for one.
Another fact is that the WTO rules insist on a border.
So if we ripped up all the EU agreements and traded with them on WTO rules, a border will still be required.
Here is one last fact.
The rules that the EU want implemented, are the rules that we agreed to.
The Irish Sea border is causing lots of hassle.
So if we dont have to have a border why on earth would we?
Not even Boris is that stupid.
We dont have to have a border, we just put it in place to pi55 off the Unionists.
The future of Greenland’s trading relationship with the United Kingdom begins in Brussels.
Greenland is not an EU member, but, as a part of the Kingdom of Denmark, it is part of the the union’s group of Overseas Countries and Territories and can export to union members tariff-free.
Greenland, though, is concerned that uncertainty over Brexit, the UK’s planned secession from the EU, will mean that it will have to begin paying tariffs to export to one if its most important trading partners. The loss of tariff-free access, according to GE, a business lobby, could result in a 17 percent fall in exports to the UK.
This would hit the fishing industry — which accounts for a third of Greenland’s economic activity — especially hard, particularly when it comes to sales of shrimp: Royal Greenland and Polar Seafood, the two largest seafood exporters, sell 30 percent of the ready-to-eat shrimp they produce to the UK.
What is the future of Greenland’s trading relationship with the UK?
The future of Greenland’s trading relationship with the United Kingdom begins in Brussels. Greenland is not an EU member, but, as a part of the Kingdom of Denmark, it is part of the the union’s group of Overseas Countries and Territories and can export to union members tariff-free.
Reference: www.arctictoday.com/brexit-goes-goes-greenlands-relationship-eu/
Greenland and the European Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_and_the_European_Union
Greenland, an autonomous territory within the Kingdom of Denmark (which also includes the territories of Denmark and Faroe Islands) is one of the EU members’ overseas countries and territories (OCT) associated to the European Union. Greenland receives funding from the EU for sustainable … See more
Greenland Representation to the European Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_Representation_to_the_European_Union
This "special case" provided a fisheries agreement between the parties in which the European Community and later the European Union kept its fishing rights and Greenland kept its financial …
https://www.arctictoday.com/brexit-goes-goes-greenlands-relationship-eu/
If Algeria and Greenland can leave the EU with a deal, so can the UK
The UK may be the only member-state to activate article 50, but it is not the first country to seek to leave the EU. Algeria left in 1962, Greenland in 1985, and St Barthélémy in 2012.
None of them shared a land border with the EU and the 499 kilometres of the Irish border presents a far greater challenge. But there are precedents from these previous exits and the EU’s current land borders that might point to a solution?
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-algeria-and-greenland-can-leave-the-eu-with-a-deal-so-can-the-uk-1.4030259