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Totally Failed.

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    somniatissomniatis Member Posts: 219
    I think that the crux of the matter is "watch less squirrels".
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,021
    edited December 2021
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    It is a desperately sad situation.

    It is very easy for the Press to show outrage-sadly, the reality is rather more difficult.

    Sadly, there are hundreds (and probably thousands) of situations where the parenting skills are brought into serious question, and Social Services get involved. Unsurprisingly, many of the parents are subject to malicious complaint by people with their own axes to grind (ex-partners, former friends and the like).

    Still more are cases where, even though the parents are far from ideal, the risks associated with removing the child from their parents outweigh the risk of harm coming to the child.

    It is very easy to point fingers after this sort of terrible case. Far more difficult to correctly pick the right ones with foresight, as opposed to hindsight. Because all parents (the good, the poor and the downright hideous) will all fight tooth and nail to remain in control of their children.

    Social Services have a really difficult job. I couldn't do it. No-one ever mentions the thousands of cases where they make the right judgment call. Just the few where they do not.

    I expect you could also argue that there may also be thousands of cases of abuse that dont actually result in the death of an innocent child, that they dont pick up on.
    We only get to hear about the most extreme cases.
    I dont think that any social worker is entitled to write off any complaint, by just taking a punt on it being malicious.
    You would think that a social worker might have got a clue during a visit, subsequent to a number of complaints that a 16 month child that was referred to as a brat, was dazed, and also had bruises to their face, and shins.
    Every time one of the cases occurs, we get the same old story about learning lessons, and we obviously dont.
    Talk to any social worker involved in child protection.

    Ask them how many cases they have been involved with where some poor kid has some suspicious bruises-the answer will shock you. They "pick up" on lots of cases-do you seriously believe that those thousands all warrant the child being placed in care? Quite apart from the untold damage that will cause countless families, is everyone happy to pay twice the Council Tax to pay for it?

    Social services have suffered swinging cuts as Councils have had to operate on reduced budgets. Both before poor Baby P. And since.

    Lessons that need to be learned? How about:-

    1. If you want a system to protect children, you need to accept that that will cost money. Resources have been drastically reduced since Baby P. Not increased. Lesson there-and not learned
    2. Stop using teachers as the supposed front line against child abuse. It is not their primary job, nor what they are adequately trained for
    3. If parents are truly bad, where are the grandparents, the neighbours, the friends? Easy to blame the Social Workers, but they do not have the day-to-day contact. And a large amount of at risk children to monitor.

    Easier to keep blaming the overworked and under resourced social worker. While we are the ones that object to paying for adequate protection.
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    somniatissomniatis Member Posts: 219
    edited December 2021
    "Lessons that need to be learned? "

    How about:- 1. Don't have children.
    2. Goto 1.
    3. Goto 1.

    There ain't no shortage of people so I think it's the perfect solution and the ones paying for "adequate protection" won't object nearly so strongly. (Too soon?)
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Essexphil said:

    It is a desperately sad situation.

    It is very easy for the Press to show outrage-sadly, the reality is rather more difficult.

    Sadly, there are hundreds (and probably thousands) of situations where the parenting skills are brought into serious question, and Social Services get involved. Unsurprisingly, many of the parents are subject to malicious complaint by people with their own axes to grind (ex-partners, former friends and the like).

    Still more are cases where, even though the parents are far from ideal, the risks associated with removing the child from their parents outweigh the risk of harm coming to the child.

    It is very easy to point fingers after this sort of terrible case. Far more difficult to correctly pick the right ones with foresight, as opposed to hindsight. Because all parents (the good, the poor and the downright hideous) will all fight tooth and nail to remain in control of their children.

    Social Services have a really difficult job. I couldn't do it. No-one ever mentions the thousands of cases where they make the right judgment call. Just the few where they do not.

    During a harrowing nine-week trial which recounted some of the worst instances of child abuse heard within memory in an English court, it emerged:

    Arthur Labinjo-Hughes's biological mother is serving 11 years in jail for stabbing to death her lover;
    Even before the killing, Arthur had witnessed numerous scenes of domestic violence;
    During that heatwave Hughes would walk around eating ice-creams in front of his starving child, while Arthur was made to wear a fluffy onesie for hours;
    A relative took a picture of severe bruising to Arthur's back on April 15 last year and phoned social services the next day… but somehow they did not see the full extent of his bruising and decided that there were no safeguarding concerns;
    Arthur had been on social services' radar for three years.. at least five of Arthur's relatives and a neighbour told social services that his life was in grave danger;
    An independent review is under way into the actions of social workers who found 'no safeguarding concerns' for a boy who was murdered just two months later by his stepmother;
    Teacher said he had become more 'reserved and anxious' and 'fixated' with his father killing him;
    Ms Halcrow revealed how her grandson's body remains in the mortuary of Leicester Royal Infirmary, where the post-mortem was carried out 16-months ago, due to a legal dispute over who has the right to lay him to rest;
    Tustin - described as 'wicked' by Arthur's grandmother - had 'salt thrown at her' by other inmates while on remand at HMP Peterborough for her trial, a criminal justice system source said;



    ONE - Arthur's grandmother, Joanne Hughes, called social services on April 16 to say she had seen the youngster covered in bruises. However, social workers failed to spot them during a visit to his home.
    TWO - On April 20, Joanne also told Arthur's school what she had seen. A member of staff called social services but was told the bruises had been caused by 'play'.
    THREE - Arthur's uncle, Daniel Hughes, reports his concerns to police but is threatened with arrest if he tries to go back to the youngster's home.
    FOUR - John Dutton, Emma Tustin's stepfather, makes an anonymous call to social services weeks before Arthur's death.







    Solihull's £122,294 Director of Children's Services at the time, Louise Rees, 60, left in August before the trial began. Rees' LinkedIn profile boasts that she is now 'retired and loving it'.

    Children's Services boss in charge of Star Hobson's care quit his £121,000-a-year post FIVE DAYS before killer couple went on trial
    Mark Douglas became Bradford Council's third Director of Children's Services to quit within a turbulent three-year period.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3KgaZQKs1U


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZL5p_Lqle8




    Mr Dutton said Hughes 'dished out the discipline' on visits to his home and admitted slashing Arthur's beloved Liverpool and Birmingham City football shirts.




    Arthur with his father. The youngster died after his head was repeatedly smashed against a hard surface



    Social services were called at least five times over the killer couple's actions
    But they believed lies from Frankie Smith, 20, and Savannah Brockhill, 28
    Smith - Star's mother - and Brockhill presided over reign of cruelty to the girl
    They hoodwinked social workers her injuries were from clumsy accidents
    During one visit Star was so dazed she walked into a sofa in view of social worker
    Bradford City Council head of Children Services Mark Douglas has now resigned
    A Local Child Safeguarding Practice Review will be published in the New Year




    Five friends and relatives raised official concerns over Smith and Brockhill's parenting


    Abused Star was so dazed she walked into a sofa in view of social worker during one visit


    On September 15 social services closed the case, indeed concluding the referral had been 'malicious'.

    A week later Star was murdered and found with fractures to her shin, ribs and skull.
    She had also suffered lacerations to a vein carrying blood between her leg and organs which leaked into her abdominal cavity.

    Prosecutor Alistair MacDonald QC said the injuries had been caused by a severe and forceful blow or blows, 'either in the form of punching, stamping or kicking to the abdomen'.

    Smith and Brockhill waited 15 minutes after the incident where Star was injured before calling 999.

    In that period they searched online for 'How to bring a baby out of shock.'

    The jury was shown video footage of Star being shouted at in her home which Mr MacDonald said showed 'there was also a degree of cruelty and psychological harm' inflicted on the youngster.

    In one clip, an upset Star is seen being roughly handled by Frankie Smith and a sustained attempt made to make her stand in the corner.

  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil

    That's a great post Phil.

    I couldnt possibly agree.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,550
    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil

    That's a great post Phil.

    I couldnt possibly agree.
    @HAYSIE


    Every debate needs balance.
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,021
    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil

    That's a great post Phil.

    I couldnt possibly agree.
    You don't have to. That is what debate is about.

    I have some experience in relation to this. The one thing we can all agree on is that the prime mover in this sort of case is the terrible people who inflict harm on their kids/stepkids.

    At the time of Baby P, Social Services were trying to fit a quart into a pint pot, due to budget cuts. The only change has been that the pint pot has been replaced. By a half-pint pot.

    The papers always run stories about how much the head of the unit earns. But never mention how much the actual social worker earns. Or how many jobs are unfilled-because of low pay, overwork, low morale, and the general hate from members of the public.

    And every time a newspaper runs a story in this way, another batch of Social Workers leave. And an extra poor child dies.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Tikay10 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil

    That's a great post Phil.

    I couldnt possibly agree.
    @HAYSIE


    Every debate needs balance.
    Its getting late, so I will keep it short.
    I would agree that social workers do a difficult job, and have some difficult cases.
    Although these two were not.
    In both cases abuse was reported a number of times from various relatives, and also a school.
    Both children displayed visible evidence that backed up the claims made by the relatives, when they were visited by social workers.
    Yet they did nothing.
    I wouldnt condone putting every child that falls over in the school yard into care.
    You can go into the usual excuses of budgets, wages, and staff shortages, and I am sure that many people have trotted them out, time, and time again.

    I can only imagine what circumstances make a case difficult.
    When is a case simple?
    Would it be when four or five different relatives report abuse?
    Would it be the child displaying injuries, on the follow up visit?
    If you were a social worker that couldnt help these two children, who on earth could you help?
    Do they have to actually see a child being punched, or stamped on, before taking any action?

    Both bosses resigned just before the court cases.
    Making it seem like they wanted to hang on as long as possible, and get their money, before the details were revealed.

  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil

    That's a great post Phil.

    I couldnt possibly agree.
    You don't have to. That is what debate is about.

    I have some experience in relation to this. The one thing we can all agree on is that the prime mover in this sort of case is the terrible people who inflict harm on their kids/stepkids.

    At the time of Baby P, Social Services were trying to fit a quart into a pint pot, due to budget cuts. The only change has been that the pint pot has been replaced. By a half-pint pot.

    The papers always run stories about how much the head of the unit earns. But never mention how much the actual social worker earns. Or how many jobs are unfilled-because of low pay, overwork, low morale, and the general hate from members of the public.

    And every time a newspaper runs a story in this way, another batch of Social Workers leave. And an extra poor child dies.
    What I cant get past is the following,
    If you just take the case of Star.
    Social workers cleared the Mother, and her partner 5 times.
    The last time was subsequent to an unannounced visit.
    After this visit the case was closed.
    She died a week later.
    The case was closed despite the fact she had bruises on her face, and legs.
    In addition she appeared to be dazed.

    So despite the fact that she was displaying signs which could have been related to abuse, the social worker closed the case, preferring the adult explanation for the bruises.
    They said she fell down the stairs.
    What responsible adult would let a 16 month old child fall down the stairs?

    I can just imagine the conversation.
    Have you been abusing your child?
    No she fell down the stairs.
    Oh thats fair enough, I will close the case.

    You cant blame the budget, or the cuts, because a social worker turned up.
    You cant blame the wages, because the one that turned up was obviously happy to work for them.

    Could you ever have a clearer cut case?
    Do they need to see an adult standing over a child with an axe, before they take any action?
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    How many more must there be? After Little Arthur, how one-year-old innocents Star and Ella-Rose are revealed to be the latest victims of a system that was supposed to keep them safe from the adults who killed them



    Worried relatives and friends alerted officials five times before 16-month-old Star Hobson (bottom) was killed in the care of her mother and her violent girlfriend. In another appalling case, Ella-Rose Clover (top) was murdered aged 22 months after doctors failed to raise the alarm about abuse she had suffered. She was taken to hospital nine times in the seven months before her death with bruising and internal injuries, in one case having emergency surgery to her bowel. Six doctors and surgeons apologised or admitted they should have acted differently. In Star's case no action was taken by social workers, who were convinced the complaints were 'malicious' due to disapproval of her mother's same-sex relationship. Her great-grandparents even warned social services: 'We don't want another Baby P on our hands.' The cases came after failings by the authorities in the murder of six-year-old Arthur Labinjo-Hughes caused outrage earlier this month. In a chilling echo of Arthur's killing, Star's carers hoodwinked the authorities into believing there was no substance to concerns raised by friends and family.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310411/TWO-tragic-children-murdered-failed-system.html
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Savannah Brockhill and Frankie Smith were given the benefit of the doubt time and again as Star Hobson suffered: Did social services fail to save the little girl because the killer said she was victim of anti-gay prejudice?



    SPECIAL REPORT: Ordinary members of the public will struggle to understand why Frankie Smith (pictured with Star, left) and Savannah Brockhill (right) were given the benefit of the doubt time and time again. Not for the first time political correctness, it seems, played a part in all this. Social workers, the jury heard, accepted Smith's story that the complaints were 'malicious' and down to relatives not approving of their same-sex relationship or Brockhill's traveller background. Asked about the referrals under cross-examination, Smith said her grandmother was from a generation that sometimes had difficulty with gay relationships - but it was social services who actually used the word 'malicious' to describe the complaints, she insisted. Star's (pictured inset) fleeting life came to an end after being 'punched, stamped on, or kicked' in the stomach, probably by Brockhill, while Smith left the living room to go to the bathroom, the court heard. Instead of dialling 999, the two people who were supposed to protect her Googled 'how to bring a baby out of shock' and there was an 11-minute delay as Brockhill attempted CPR before calling an ambulance.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310213/Star-Hobson-Jurors-told-anti-gay-complaints-against-Savannah-Brockhill-malicious.html
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    SIX doctors admit they failed tragic 22-month-old Ella-Rose who died after being repeatedly beaten by her godmother's partner - despite being taken to hospital NINE times in seven months



    Ella-Rose Clover (pictured below centre and left with mother Pagan Clover), who died aged 22 months in January 2018, had been taken to hospital nine times in the previous seven months with bruising and internal injuries. Her bruises included a black eye and marks to her ear and legs, and one occasion she required emergency surgery to her bowel. But an inquest heard doctors believed there may have been a rare medical cause. Her godmother Sharleen Hughes' partner Michael Wild (pictured bottom right), repeatedly beat and punched Ella-Rose. She died after he inflicted a blow to the stomach so serious it caused internal bleeding and cardiac arrest. Stephen Hughes, a consultant immunologist, told an inquest he was 'ashamed', while Daniel Mattison, a consultant paediatrician, said: 'I'm truly sorry.' Other medics who admitted shortcomings included paediatricians Claire Wilkins and Asim Ahmed, and surgeon Ross Craigie (all pictured top row)



    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310313/FIVE-doctors-admit-failed-22-month-old-tot-beaten-death-godmothers-partner.html
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Tikay10 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil

    That's a great post Phil.

    I couldnt possibly agree.
    @HAYSIE


    Every debate needs balance.
    Sticking with the Star case for a minute.

    When the police started an investigation they found that the security guard partner regularly took the child to work when she was on a night shift.
    They found 21 instances on CCTV at her workplace, of the bouncer beating the child.
    Another instance also on CCTV, where the mother was seen dragging the child around various shops in Bradford town centre.
    The mother claimed to her partner that Star was having a tantrum, because she wouldnt keep up with them.
    In fact she couldnt keep up with them because her leg was broken, and she was dead a couple of days later.

    If there was not a social worker available for a visit, you could argue about budget cuts, staff shortages, etc, but this was not the case.
    Social workers cleared the Mother, and her partner 5 times.
    This surely proves that the above excuses are irrelevant?
    I fail to see that arguing budget cuts and staff shortages could be relevant, when there were staff available for a number of visits.

    In 2018 Bradford Childrens Services were judged to be unfit for purpose.
    Has anything changed in the meantime?
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Star Hobson's shattered grandfather killed himself on his daughter's birthday after sending her a letter saying he was going to 'look after the baby' as she awaited trial over one-year-old's death



    Andrew Smith (pictured left), 50, died of an overdose in June as he battled with the realisation that his daughter, Frankie Smith (far right), of Keighley, West Yorkshire, had caused the death of little Star Hobson (centre right). The tragic tot was murdered by her mother Frankie Smith's girlfriend Savannah Brockhill (top inset) after suffering months of abuse in her West Yorkshire home during the Covid lockdown last June. Andrew's father, Frank, 68, was one of five relatives or close family friends who turned whistleblower and raised concerns over the treatment, and bruises that had appeared, on 16-month-old Star. Social services missed five opportunities to stop the toddler's killers, including her great-grandfather's partner, in the months before her death on September 22, 2020.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310791/Father-Frankie-Smith-committed-suicide-promising-look-Star-Hobson.html
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,550

    @HAYSIE



    Yes, it's a terrible, terrible case, & those connected should feel ashamed.

    But Social Services is a huge & unwieldy beast, full of human interaction. Humans make mistakes, always have, always will.

    Like it or not, there will be a target "success rate" of, let us say, around 90%, so 10% fall through the net. Or it may be 95%/5%, or 98%/2%, or even 99%/1%. But 100%/0% is not possible when the whole thing is run & managed by human beings. It's just not possible. Ever.

    I've no idea how many Social Services staff are involved across the UK. 5,000, 10,000, 25,000? No idea, but the law of large numbers means some cases WILL slip through the net.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Tikay10 said:


    @HAYSIE



    Yes, it's a terrible, terrible case, & those connected should feel ashamed.

    But Social Services is a huge & unwieldy beast, full of human interaction. Humans make mistakes, always have, always will.

    Like it or not, there will be a target "success rate" of, let us say, around 90%, so 10% fall through the net. Or it may be 95%/5%, or 98%/2%, or even 99%/1%. But 100%/0% is not possible when the whole thing is run & managed by human beings. It's just not possible. Ever.

    I've no idea how many Social Services staff are involved across the UK. 5,000, 10,000, 25,000? No idea, but the law of large numbers means some cases WILL slip through the net.

    I understand what you are saying, and for the purposes of this debate, I wont argue with any of it.
    What I am arguing is that these were surely not difficult cases.
    There were no evident staff shortages as staff actually turned up.
    There were complaints from a number of different people.
    The children had injuries that backed up the complaints.
    The parents predictably had excuses, and disputed the claims.
    No action was taken.
    What sort of evidence would they have needed to take some action?

    If you had a child that had died after abuse, where there were no complaints reported to social services, the parents were cunning and didnt inflict any visible injuries, and only abused the child privately, nothing was noticed at school, then I think you could argue that it was difficult to spot.

    I just think that in both these cases it would seem far more logical to act, than to take no action.

    Bradford Childrens Services was judged unfit for purpose three years ago, I wonder what steps, if any, that they have taken in the meantime to address this.
  • Options
    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,550

    @HAYSIE


    Yes, I don't disagree with any of that.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Tikay10 said:


    @HAYSIE


    Yes, I don't disagree with any of that.

    It is just horrible.
    I feel really annoyed.
    I think it is similar to the police not solving a murder, subsequent to them getting details of a phone call to Crimestoppers, telling them who the murderer was, where the murder weapon is hidden, where the body is buried, and just believing the culprits claim that they didnt do it.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,175
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    It is a desperately sad situation.

    It is very easy for the Press to show outrage-sadly, the reality is rather more difficult.

    Sadly, there are hundreds (and probably thousands) of situations where the parenting skills are brought into serious question, and Social Services get involved. Unsurprisingly, many of the parents are subject to malicious complaint by people with their own axes to grind (ex-partners, former friends and the like).

    Still more are cases where, even though the parents are far from ideal, the risks associated with removing the child from their parents outweigh the risk of harm coming to the child.

    It is very easy to point fingers after this sort of terrible case. Far more difficult to correctly pick the right ones with foresight, as opposed to hindsight. Because all parents (the good, the poor and the downright hideous) will all fight tooth and nail to remain in control of their children.

    Social Services have a really difficult job. I couldn't do it. No-one ever mentions the thousands of cases where they make the right judgment call. Just the few where they do not.

    I expect you could also argue that there may also be thousands of cases of abuse that dont actually result in the death of an innocent child, that they dont pick up on.
    We only get to hear about the most extreme cases.
    I dont think that any social worker is entitled to write off any complaint, by just taking a punt on it being malicious.
    You would think that a social worker might have got a clue during a visit, subsequent to a number of complaints that a 16 month child that was referred to as a brat, was dazed, and also had bruises to their face, and shins.
    Every time one of the cases occurs, we get the same old story about learning lessons, and we obviously dont.
    Talk to any social worker involved in child protection.

    Ask them how many cases they have been involved with where some poor kid has some suspicious bruises-the answer will shock you. They "pick up" on lots of cases-do you seriously believe that those thousands all warrant the child being placed in care? Quite apart from the untold damage that will cause countless families, is everyone happy to pay twice the Council Tax to pay for it?

    Social services have suffered swinging cuts as Councils have had to operate on reduced budgets. Both before poor Baby P. And since.

    Lessons that need to be learned? How about:-

    1. If you want a system to protect children, you need to accept that that will cost money. Resources have been drastically reduced since Baby P. Not increased. Lesson there-and not learned
    2. Stop using teachers as the supposed front line against child abuse. It is not their primary job, nor what they are adequately trained for
    3. If parents are truly bad, where are the grandparents, the neighbours, the friends? Easy to blame the Social Workers, but they do not have the day-to-day contact. And a large amount of at risk children to monitor.

    Easier to keep blaming the overworked and under resourced social worker. While we are the ones that object to paying for adequate protection.
    Why I fear surrender to political correctness cost this little girl her life: As a gay woman, JULIE BINDEL is appalled at how two women weaponised their sexuality to intimidate the social workers who could have saved Star



    JULIE BINDEL: Star Hobson's death might have been avoided had the social workers and police officers involved not capitulated in such a cowardly fashion to the forces of 'political correctness'. Unforgivably, social services in West Yorkshire accepted Frankie Smith's (right) lies that the complaints were 'malicious' because Star's great-grandparents, Anita Smith and David Fawcett, supposedly did not approve of Smith and Savannah Brockhill's (inset bottom) same-sex relationship or Brockhill's traveller background There is no doubt that in Star's (pictured left) tragic tale those who should have saved her - and who were being paid to do so by the taxpayer - failed in their duty because they were too keen to toe a liberal line.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10314469/I-fear-surrender-liberal-dogma-cost-little-Star-Hobson-life-writes-JULIE-BINDEL.html
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