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P & O Ferries, stormy waters ahead

Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381
edited March 2022 in The Rail
Fascinating story brewing here...



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001




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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381

    The story that seems to be emerging on Twitter is that P & O plan to make all their staff redundant & replace them with agency labour.

    Why dock all the ships? Guess there is a real threat that the crew will effectively hijack the ships & refuse to leave maybe?

    Proper pot-boiler this.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381
    One tweet come up with....

    P & O Ferries sunk by Brexit


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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,166
    As I understand employment law it is the position that becomes redundant not the employee.

    As such you cannot make somebody redundant and then hire somebody else to do the same job in the same capacity.

    I know that the TUPE regs used to cover some of this but as I haven't been involved with Trade Unions for a while the parameters could well have shifted.

    In order to be able to do this the old company would have to cease to exist losing all contracts, routes, assets and staff.

    A new company would then have to be started from scratch whereupon they would be able to fill staffing roles as they see fit.

    But you can't just make all your staff redundant and then bring in people to do the same job because that's NOT redundancy.

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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381
    edited March 2022
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,002
    edited March 2022

    As I understand employment law it is the position that becomes redundant not the employee.

    As such you cannot make somebody redundant and then hire somebody else to do the same job in the same capacity.

    I know that the TUPE regs used to cover some of this but as I haven't been involved with Trade Unions for a while the parameters could well have shifted.

    In order to be able to do this the old company would have to cease to exist losing all contracts, routes, assets and staff.

    A new company would then have to be started from scratch whereupon they would be able to fill staffing roles as they see fit.

    But you can't just make all your staff redundant and then bring in people to do the same job because that's NOT redundancy.

    Your understanding of UK employment law is correct (and, yes, it is UK law-employment law is near identical throughout the UK).

    One of the key questions is whether UK Law applies, and then (if it does) whether there is an SOSR (Some Other Substantial Reason) exemption.

    The various owners of P & O have, over the years, sporadically tried to assert that these contracts are International contracts of Employment, rather than UK ones. With little or no success. However, we are no longer in the EU-thus it is not automatic that services between the UK and EU would have either UK or EU contracts. Although it seems likely that UK contracts currently are in place.

    The owners of P & O are a thoroughly lovely bunch called DP World. The DP stands for Dubai Ports. They also own loads of ports throughout the World, including London Gateway/Southampton. Their main rivals are Hutchison Whampoa, a Far Eastern conglomerate that own Felixstowe/Harwich and various others.

    DP will claim that this measure is the only way the Company (P & O) can survive. I am sure there are many people who will take issue with that.

    1 question I would love to know:-did the Government become aware of this on its latest begging bowl trip to the Middle East?

    If DP are unwilling to provide a UK service, then we need to consider whether to nationalise it.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381
    edited March 2022

    @Essexphil


    Could be fun times ahead if the the dockers at London Gateway &/or Southampton walk out in sympathy, which I would assume is a real possibility.

    This story could get real messy.

    What if the crews of the Ferries refuse to leave the ferries? Again, they well might.
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,002
    edited March 2022
    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil


    Could be fun times ahead if the the dockers at London Gateway &/or Southampton walk out in sympathy, which I would assume is a real possibility.

    This story could get real messy.

    What if the crews of the Ferries refuse to leave the ferries? Again, they well might.

    Dockers are rather different to the firebrands of the 1970s/80s. And that sort of action has been outlawed for some time.

    The crews of the ferries will almost certainly seek to remain on board-as their employer is trying to enforce a lock-out. Which is the employer's version of Strike action.

    This is going to get very messy. Unless, of course, a secret deal has already been struck between DP and our government.

    You know the sort of thing-money paid to Government to take over some contracts. About half the money filtering down to the workers. That sort of thing. We shall see.

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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,002
    Update.

    DP World appear to have decided UK Law is no longer relevant to DP World in their UK operations.

    Either they know something I do not, or their current UK legal advisers will be about to part company with them.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381

    That would perhaps explain why P & O ordered all the ferries to dock BEFORE the announcement. Effectively, all the passengers/vehicles would have become hostages if the announcement was made whilst on the high seas.
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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,166
    Takes me back almost.

    Energy crisis, East/West tensions, trouble at the docks. All we need now are braziers and donkey jackets.

    All together now "I was a miner, I was a docker, I was a railway worker between the wars"

    Sorry just getting all misty and nostalgic.
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,002
    edited March 2022
    Tikay10 said:


    That would perhaps explain why P & O ordered all the ferries to dock BEFORE the announcement. Effectively, all the passengers/vehicles would have become hostages if the announcement was made whilst on the high seas.

    As @TheEdge949 rightly pointed out, this purported 800 "redundancies" is no such thing. These are dismissals. Unfair dismissals.

    There are processes to undertake before redundancies/dismissals of this sort. Lots of them. Involving an open discussion. Collective consultation. Notify the RPS (Redundancy Payments Service) at least 45 days before the consultation starts where more than 100 proposed redundancies. And the consultation should last at least 45 days.

    https://www.gov.uk/staff-redundant/redundancy-consultations

    They will have known about this for months. And not told their workers.

    Barbarians.
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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,166
    @Essexphil

    On a serious note do you see this as an opportunity for Government to flex some post Brexit muscle and stand firm by implementing UK law, knowing that it can't be undermined by the EU.

    Or do you think it will posture and then crumble due to external considerations such as alternative oil supplies and the like.

    One Iron Lady proved merciless at crushing Unions and Industry perhaps now it's time for the powers to stand behind and with them against an outside force of this nature.
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    VespaPXVespaPX Member Posts: 12,027
    edited March 2022
    Cheaper foreign labour
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,002

    @Essexphil

    On a serious note do you see this as an opportunity for Government to flex some post Brexit muscle and stand firm by implementing UK law, knowing that it can't be undermined by the EU.

    Or do you think it will posture and then crumble due to external considerations such as alternative oil supplies and the like.

    One Iron Lady proved merciless at crushing Unions and Industry perhaps now it's time for the powers to stand behind and with them against an outside force of this nature.

    The EU would not undermine any decision we were to make, had we still been in the EU. The EU only used to get involved in the rare instances where EU law over-rode National Law. So-for employment Law purposes-just some working hours, minimum holidays and the like.

    One part of this will be taken out of the Government's hands. There are going to be some big Employment Tribunal claims here. More a question of what sort of fines/enforcement action the UK will take on top of that. And it should cost this hapless bunch £Millions

    It may have been that Unions had too much power in the 70s/80s. But the pendulum has swung too far the other way now. We really need to show some backbone.

    PS-excellent modern version of Between the Wars by a modern folk band by the name of The Young'uns. Still true today-and they can sing better than the Big nosed Boy from Barking ;)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuK0C_zj3_0
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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,166
    News now using the word SACKED
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,002

    News now using the word SACKED

    Less inaccurate. As this is in no way a Redundancy.

    Although I prefer "Summarily dismissed without cause or proper procedure..."
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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,166
    Workers blockading the Port. It's all getting very French.

    Although in saying that at least when the French have a grievance they all tend to support each other. Farmers, Truckers, Port workers, ATC etc etc.
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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,166
    I bet the Litigation Specialists are licking their lips, huge payouts, billable hours, big fees, nice commissions, fines, levvies, penalties. DP are going to need a rather large contingency fund to ride this out.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,381

    "a few hours" has now become "a few days".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
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