You see, im totally open to an online poker debate, without the use of resorting to insults. Have been from the start.
There is only a handful of players who have been able to do that, although not agreeing with me.... well done to Green Beer, Poppy and everyone else in that category!
@TheWaddy Poker has always been about equilibrium. Which is kind of what you're saying. The time before we reached that initial equilibrium was the golden era and when the USA left that adjusted the equilibrium greatly, negatively so, you are correct.
The biggest factors by far, were eastern block countries getting more involved (where wages are much lower than here) and the ring fencing of richer states like Italy and France making that equilibrium less appealing for UK based players. France was, or is, so fishy that after Winamax opened they also accepted EU players there, and before that place hit equilibrium it was the best place to make money in poker.
Luckily for you, you have access to Sky Poker which has a higher base profitability (equilibrium) than most other sites, because it's UK only.
I would say the games you play are probably some of the most profitable in terms of ROI on the whole interweb, £1 hi/lo on Sky Poker, so it says very little about your ability as a player. That's not to say you are bad, its just that we're working with super skewed data.
EDIT: The equilibrium here is about how much money one player can reasonably make playing poker for a living.
EDIT 2: UKGC regs are the biggest factor in the UK wrt to this. They hit hard and you will see win rates drop, and some pros will drop out, restoring the equilibrium eventually.
You see, im totally open to an online poker debate, without the use of resorting to insults. Have been from the start.
You are not that open, and you can't seem to realise that. You will always reply in a way that asserts how you were right all along, and if there's no way that will stand up you simply ignore it and cherry pick some part of someone's post for a retort.
You are a zealot and a hypocrite. I'm not having a dig. These are just facts. I wish you were neither.
I think my balance, withdrawals and just one deposit of £20 in 4yrs or so of returning to the site, kind of say im in the 'good player' ball park..... or at least suggests i know poker well enough to have a opinion of value.
I have just put up a catalogue of events that are undeniably true;
Online poker starts Normal poker, normal bad beats ratio Black friday American market goes, so has to be a change to replace revenue Sites introduce casino/slots Poker games appear, that are just poker in hand rankings, but are thrill games Vicky Coren leaves Pokerstars as does not want to be the face of such rubbish Poker sites clientele changes to mainly thrill seekers. overspill from casino Normal sng have no players at tables, as poker players have left
I have left out the speculative bits (although pretty obvious), so the above chain is now fact. If there is something there that is untrue, your welcome to say!
This is mostly true. It also does not follow from these points that the games have been rigged at any point (pre- or post-BF).
The point about the American market going isn't comprehensive enough. Abnormally profitable businesses like Stars pre-BF don't immediately react and demand the same annual profit. They increase their price and diversify their offering where they can (spins, casino, sports where they don't already have it and the investment makes sense). They also cut their cloth accordingly: no more Supernova rakeback, no more US advertising, cut back on the loss-making activities like free deposits and withdrawels, etc. Even then, they expect their profit to take a hit like many businesses did with the economic shock of COVID.
Tastes did not change when it came to poker, it was the sites that changed. Nor did it 'go out of fashion' as claimed by DoubleMe.
There was one reason and one reason alone and only me ever mentions it! The American market disappeared overnight. which was huge. Otherwise known as Black Friday.
How could sites replace that revenue? None of you will consider the board meetings that followed and seem to think they just shrugged their shoulders and just let things play out and whatever will be will be.
Of course no successful business operates this way.
So there were not enough poker players to feed their greed of the money previously made. So in came the casino, the slots. And then to draw those thrill seeking, out and out gamblers into the poker, we had the silly thrill versions of poker.... spin and go and temptations of a million win, all in every hand, 1 min blind levels... just thrill gambling games, with virtually no 'poker' involved. Exit Victoria Coren from Pokerstars.
As these players had little to no experience of poker and also little interest of learning it either... otherwise they would have already been playing.... we had the magic decks brought in... twists and turns of lead changes, plenty of flopped trips beaten on the river by a flush etc... thats what these players like and are here for, just the thrill of gambling. These players would soon get bored of an ace high win, whilst getting dealt 8 3 for hands on end.
This is why poker players at the WSOP shook their heads at the standard of online qualifiers, always talked about at the table.... afterall the online qualifiers did not understand why their moves were not winning in the real world, when they did online. Why would they?
So it wasnt poker going out of fashion, or tastes changing... it was poker sites being overtaken by a non poker playing clientele. The way sites wanted.
So when decent players in the real world, insist on defending online poker in its present form, this is the result. You may be aggresive towards me for some bizarre reason for saying this, but if you dont recognise/acknowledge the chain of events above, then i dont understand that as its as plain as plain can be.
This is just a selection of half-truths and over-simplification.
"Black Friday" did not happen overnight. It was 5 years in the making.
The UIGEA was passed in 2006. The then-largest poker site in the World, Party Poker, immediately ceased accepting US players. I vividly recall assisting Mike Sexton trying to explain the reasons why in Vegas, and getting dogs abuse. So Party, and a whole host of other poker sites such as i-poker, made adjustments in 2006. Rather than 2011. Only 3 did not, including Stars.
Tastes changed in poker for a whole host of reasons. Not just Black Friday. For example:-
1. Profits for poker sites were never as large as expected; 2. Losing players could not fool themselves that they were really winning players, thanks to the online tools such as Sharkscope 3. Advancements in technology drastically reduced overlay, such as Late Reg and the ability to open new tables after the start time 4. Sponsorship pretty much disappeared, meaning "famous" poker players increasingly had to spend their own money. Because attracting new players was not as lucrative as originally hoped 5. Like any new game, plethora of info to refine the optimal playing of the game
It wasn't a question of "replacing" revenue. Just what every business does-trying to cross-sell to associated products.
Tastes also change. It's not "non-poker" clientele. Just that many people want faster games. To give the obvious comparator, the skills required to be successful in T-20 cricket are rather different to Test cricket. But it's still cricket.
The reason people get aggressive towards you is not because poker (like life) is ever-changing. It is because you make the ginormous leap from owners of poker sites doing perfectly legal things to boost profits to sites fixing the deck illegally. Online poker works in exactly the same way as live poker. With the one exception that live has more weak players.
That is the simple fact. Together with the fact that, to be a winning player at poker is 100 times more difficult than it was 15 years ago.
You don't have to believe that. But it is the only logical position. Some of the finest maths brains play poker. And a substantial minority of those brains believe online poker works differently. And precisely none of them have come up with any credible evidence.
Very Good post Phil .....insightful for those of us who don't know about that background of Online Poker.
Have you noticed that the two LIVE Poker SPT's this Year have been won by ONLINE Poker players from here at SKYPOKER, with the third, and latest one in GLASGOW having @johnmonty as Chip Leader (412K chips) also being from SKYPOKER ....( GOOD LUCK John mate )
Funny how these very good ONLINE Poker players do so well LIVE too .......I wonder why that is ?
..... or are they just 'Thrill seeking Gamblers getting Lucky' ?
Very Good post Phil .....insightful for those of us who don't know about that background of Online Poker.
Have you noticed that the two LIVE Poker SPT's this Year have been won by ONLINE Poker players from here at SKYPOKER, with the third, and latest one in GLASGOW having @johnmonty as Chip Leader (412K chips) also being from SKYPOKER ....( GOOD LUCK John mate )
Funny how these very good ONLINE Poker players do so well LIVE too .......I wonder why that is ?
..... or are they just 'Thrill seeking Gamblers getting Lucky' ?
The key is always game selection. Part of that is going to be your own skill set, concentration levels, ability to read players, push-fold ranges etc. But equally (if not more so) part of that is the player pool where you choose to play.
In many respects, £1 HU PLO8 is ideal, provided the aim is to make a profit (as opposed to the size of that profit). For some people making a profit from a hobby, for whatever reason, is more important than anything else. Nothing wrong with that. Exactly the same applies for people who are happy to lose money for the "thrill"
Plo8 has far less online teaching resources-natural ability more likely to hold up than in say NLHE The buy-in is too small to make a profit commensurate with working, so next to no other winning players. Most are going to be weak Recs-some even mis-clicked the wrong game The few winning players who do play at this sort of level are going to mass table, which is (again) exploitable
To be fair, I have seen a lot of massive winning players go busto purely because of bad game selection. For example, Spins is totally different to MTTs-I know I don't possess the right skill-set for them
Very Good post Phil .....insightful for those of us who don't know about that background of Online Poker.
Have you noticed that the two LIVE Poker SPT's this Year have been won by ONLINE Poker players from here at SKYPOKER, with the third, and latest one in GLASGOW having @johnmonty as Chip Leader (412K chips) also being from SKYPOKER ....( GOOD LUCK John mate )
Funny how these very good ONLINE Poker players do so well LIVE too .......I wonder why that is ?
..... or are they just 'Thrill seeking Gamblers getting Lucky' ?
The key is always game selection. Part of that is going to be your own skill set, concentration levels, ability to read players, push-fold ranges etc. But equally (if not more so) part of that is the player pool where you choose to play.
In many respects, £1 HU PLO8 is ideal, provided the aim is to make a profit (as opposed to the size of that profit). For some people making a profit from a hobby, for whatever reason, is more important than anything else. Nothing wrong with that. Exactly the same applies for people who are happy to lose money for the "thrill"
Plo8 has far less online teaching resources-natural ability more likely to hold up than in say NLHE The buy-in is too small to make a profit commensurate with working, so next to no other winning players. Most are going to be weak Recs-some even mis-clicked the wrong game The few winning players who do play at this sort of level are going to mass table, which is (again) exploitable
To be fair, I have seen a lot of massive winning players go busto purely because of bad game selection. For example, Spins is totally different to MTTs-I know I don't possess the right skill-set for them
this is the thing I think I have little room for ego in poker. I am never going to be a world class player, for a few reasons, 1. I wont put the effort in that sounds bad but I think to be truly world class at something you have to make a world class effort, and I just prefer better work life balance then that. I will if probably make a decent effort to get to a point where I can make a decent income. 2. I lack the intelligence, I have actually had my IQ professionally tested, why? well I only ever told 3 people on sky that and I believe one of them has told others but I would rather not declare it on the forums. Suffice to say MY IQ is above average but I am not in genius territory and I kind of think you need to be if your going to become world class standard.
So because I lack both the effort and the intelligence to be world class, there will always be some poker players considerably better then me. My priority from the game will be to make the highest income I can from the game. I am aware my game can be off when I tilt which does not happen often however in MTTS your whole night can be decided by a two or three hands eg if you lose that win that hand you bank first for that this makes you profitable if you lose you have a losing night. Online Cash games I believe rightly or wrongly to be the toughest games to beat so why make it hard on myself? I can make X playing another type of game but I can only make X-n (where n>0) from cash why play cash for ego reasons?
there are many poker players I am way better then and many i am may worse then. Why care about proving myself good I just care about making the best profit I can.
I am not at the point where I have the results showing I can do this for a living but I think its clear I would like to get to that point. at the moment at least poker is a profitable hobby.
Very Good post Phil .....insightful for those of us who don't know about that background of Online Poker.
Have you noticed that the two LIVE Poker SPT's this Year have been won by ONLINE Poker players from here at SKYPOKER, with the third, and latest one in GLASGOW having @johnmonty as Chip Leader (412K chips) also being from SKYPOKER ....( GOOD LUCK John mate )
Funny how these very good ONLINE Poker players do so well LIVE too .......I wonder why that is ?
..... or are they just 'Thrill seeking Gamblers getting Lucky' ?
The key is always game selection. Part of that is going to be your own skill set, concentration levels, ability to read players, push-fold ranges etc. But equally (if not more so) part of that is the player pool where you choose to play.
In many respects, £1 HU PLO8 is ideal, provided the aim is to make a profit (as opposed to the size of that profit). For some people making a profit from a hobby, for whatever reason, is more important than anything else. Nothing wrong with that. Exactly the same applies for people who are happy to lose money for the "thrill"
Plo8 has far less online teaching resources-natural ability more likely to hold up than in say NLHE The buy-in is too small to make a profit commensurate with working, so next to no other winning players. Most are going to be weak Recs-some even mis-clicked the wrong game The few winning players who do play at this sort of level are going to mass table, which is (again) exploitable
To be fair, I have seen a lot of massive winning players go busto purely because of bad game selection. For example, Spins is totally different to MTTs-I know I don't possess the right skill-set for them
this is the thing I think I have little room for ego in poker. I am never going to be a world class player, for a few reasons, 1. I wont put the effort in that sounds bad but I think to be truly world class at something you have to make a world class effort, and I just prefer better work life balance then that. I will if probably make a decent effort to get to a point where I can make a decent income. 2. I lack the intelligence, I have actually had my IQ professionally tested, why? well I only ever told 3 people on sky that and I believe one of them has told others but I would rather not declare it on the forums. Suffice to say MY IQ is above average but I am not in genius territory and I kind of think you need to be if your going to become world class standard.
So because I lack both the effort and the intelligence to be world class, there will always be some poker players considerably better then me. My priority from the game will be to make the highest income I can from the game. I am aware my game can be off when I tilt which does not happen often however in MTTS your whole night can be decided by a two or three hands eg if you lose that win that hand you bank first for that this makes you profitable if you lose you have a losing night. Online Cash games I believe rightly or wrongly to be the toughest games to beat so why make it hard on myself? I can make X playing another type of game but I can only make X-n (where n>0) from cash why play cash for ego reasons?
there are many poker players I am way better then and many i am may worse then. Why care about proving myself good I just care about making the best profit I can.
I am not at the point where I have the results showing I can do this for a living but I think its clear I would like to get to that point. at the moment at least poker is a profitable hobby.
I won’t declare it on here but your IQ was surprising
Very Good post Phil .....insightful for those of us who don't know about that background of Online Poker.
Have you noticed that the two LIVE Poker SPT's this Year have been won by ONLINE Poker players from here at SKYPOKER, with the third, and latest one in GLASGOW having @johnmonty as Chip Leader (412K chips) also being from SKYPOKER ....( GOOD LUCK John mate )
Funny how these very good ONLINE Poker players do so well LIVE too .......I wonder why that is ?
..... or are they just 'Thrill seeking Gamblers getting Lucky' ?
Im so glad you mentioned johnmonty as chip leader at this event, as i came across his quite inexplicable play just this week. The basic of basic mistakes in the sunday major freeroll, where top 3 got tickets.
You may, of course, say its a freeroll, so he didnt care... errr someone dedicating time and upon reaching a final table will play to his best ability, believe. There was 6 left at this point with 3 tickets on offer.
So the first hand i couldnt believe, he is in the BB and me being the absolute short stack push all in... he is the big stack around 100k and it will cost him approx 9k getting better than 2-1 on his call, so its an auto call... especially as i could have any 2 and he knows this. So i wasnt going to get tricky, as i know as an assumed good player, he cant and wont fold to an all in.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
LittleGJ
Small blind
2000.00
2000.00
94975.00
johnmonty
Big blind
4000.00
6000.00
57977.50
Your hole cards
Q
Q
giesahaun
Fold
70theo
Fold
TheWaddy
All-in
13300.00
19300.00
0.00
LittleGJ
Fold
johnmonty
Fold
TheWaddy
Muck
TheWaddy
Win
10000.00
10000.00
TheWaddy
Return
9300.00
0.00
19300.00
He folds! Pure luck that he avoided running into Queens, but where is his basic understanding here?
And then, he goes down to 50k, but still 2nd in chips and i push all in some time later... this time its an easy fold for him as a call here with a very average hand would decimate his quite comfortable chances of getting that top 3. Hes not getting 2-1 either and i know he will fold unless he has a premium hand. Its basic play when you dont need to win the tournament.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
LittleGJ
Small blind
3000.00
3000.00
62197.50
johnmonty
Big blind
6000.00
9000.00
49977.50
Your hole cards
J
A
giesahaun
Fold
70theo
Fold
TheWaddy
All-in
26600.00
35600.00
0.00
LittleGJ
Fold
johnmonty
Call
20600.00
56200.00
29377.50
johnmonty
Show
10
K
TheWaddy
Show
J
A
Flop
8
K
3
Turn
2
River
6
johnmonty
Win
Pair of Kings
56200.00
85577.50
This time hes calling though! His reasoning? That he wanted a rise out of me and i was 'the goat of £1 sngs' ..... hmmm yet when it was an auto call, with a hand that was even more qualifying of getting a rise out of me (he folded, so obv it was not good), he didnt play it.
I think these 2 very basic play errors (in a place required only tournament), shows that the standard is not knowing much about poker these days and aggressive lucking out is very much the in thing, as decks will often oblige. This is very obvious when they play live.
Have you considered playing DYM's? John plays them for a living and seeing as you have a deeper understanding of poker and ICM than he does you might be able to go pro.
Have you considered playing DYM's? John plays them for a living and seeing as you have a deeper understanding of poker and ICM than he does you might be able to go pro.
lol I was going to procrastinate with a long response but you saved me from that.
@TheWaddy briefly if straight cash game you are correct this would be a call with almost any two.
you are however playing at this point where if stacks were even and ability equal everyone has a 50% chance of winning £110 ticket or nothing. if two players go all in and one busts there are now 5 players left and 3 who win. the other 4 players on the table just gained money in ev terms without been involved. also if your heads up and your exactly 3bb deep in the bb and sb shoves into your getting exactly 2 to 1 odds. according to nash heads up you should still fold 83o 82o 73o 72o 63o 62o 52o 42o and 32o. I dont know exactly how ICM would affect this but considering you have more then 2 players and ICM factoring in I am sure optimum folding range would be wider then this. Monty is a very strong player who likely has a much better idea then the vast majority of the correct play, and considering the value at this stage I am sure he would be taking the game seriously.
2. I lack the intelligence, I have actually had my IQ professionally tested, why? well I only ever told 3 people on sky that and I believe one of them has told others but I would rather not declare it on the forums. Suffice to say MY IQ is above average but I am not in genius territory and I kind of think you need to be if your going to become world class standard.
Slightly concerning to see someone who I believe is part-way through a Statistics degree citing their IQ score as a meaningful quantification of their intelligence.
What are your thoughts on the validity of this score?
Have you not learned yet, that due to the 'slightly limited' SKYPoker software .......posting two Hand Histories (HH) on the same post, has the second HH coming up without suits.
We can always learn something from others .......IF we want to
EDIT: Just a couple of observations......In the first hand you over-exaggerated his stack by over 50% to be around 100K, when it was actually just under 62K.....was that to fit your story ?
In the other hand, I see he knocked you out in 5th place....... so he then had a nice stack with 3 seats and only 4 players left. Are you just bitter because you just missed out on a £110 Sunday Major seat?
.......and because a player chooses not to conform with how you think they should play?
I see @johnmonty isn't in tonight's Sunday Major did he win a seat in the end with your chips ? .....( though neither is @giesahaun who may likely be playing SPT Glasgow too ) Hopefully they will both be doing well playing LIVE with a 'Plastic Deck' .....and their 'Online ability'
Have you not learned yet, that due to the 'slightly limited' SKYPoker software .......posting two Hand Histories (HH) on the same post, has the second HH coming up without suits.
We can always learn something from others .......IF we want to
EDIT: Just a couple of observations......In the first hand you over-exaggerated his stack by over 50% to be around 100K, when it was actually just under 62K.....was that to fit your story ?
In the other hand, I see he knocked you out in 5th place....... so he then had a nice stack with 3 seats and only 4 players left. Are you just bitter because you just missed out on a £110 Sunday Major seat?
.......and because a player chooses not to conform with how you think they should play?
I see @johnmonty isn't in tonight's Sunday Major did he win a seat in the end with your chips ? .....( though neither is @giesahaun who may likely be playing SPT Glasgow too ) Hopefully they will both be doing well playing LIVE with a 'Plastic Deck' .....and their 'Online ability'
I made an error in that he was yo-yo ing, but 50k or 100k, its an auto call.... its little wonder he was yo-yo ing, as one was an auto call and the other an auto fold and he got them the wrong way round. Is it not conforming to the way I THINK he should play, or just baffling basic play in such tournaments with that structure?
I would imagine he has that big stack in Glasgow, making god awful decisions and the live pro's looking at each other shaking their heads.... A bit like Jerry Yang winning the WSOP main event Of course you can have lucky streaks live.
I mean i knew we would get the mistakes backed here.... yet at the table his friends put up 'lol!! good call john', so at least we could see they thought wtf too....
If my understanding of the 2 hands is incorrect, feel free to have a go....
i maintain the first is an auto call, due to pot odds and also without damaging his stack too much on a loss, with the chance to eliminate a desperate short stack. Basic play.
The second, he knows almost 100% hes behind. There is a high chance he is going to be dominated v AK, A10, KJ, KQ type of hands which would put him 3-1, JJ QQ at 7-2, any ace 2 through 9 at 6-4... as well as 10 10, KK, AA putting him in trouble. If he loses, he then becomes the short stack from a comfortable position. Fold is a basic play here.
I think I might be a better MTT player than @johnmonty
I know he is definitely a better DYM player than me. It's not even close.
And this MTT, due to the stacks and prizes, is effectively a DYM.
Your theory appears to be this. Getting 2.1-1 on your money, you should call with any 2. 3 2 off, all sorts. You completely ignore someone pointing out Nash charts, as though they are talking a foreign language. "Auto call" indeed-not just ignoring Nash, ignoring relative stack sizes and how wide and how often he believes you are shoving. Without wishing to sound obvious, any competent player calls wider when someone is frequently shoving.
While when getting 1.8-1 on your money, you believe you should definitely fold K 10, even though it is a better than average hand. Personally, I would have folded that 2nd hand-but I suspect that is my error, not his.
Comments
There is only a handful of players who have been able to do that, although not agreeing with me.... well done to Green Beer, Poppy and everyone else in that category!
The biggest factors by far, were eastern block countries getting more involved (where wages are much lower than here) and the ring fencing of richer states like Italy and France making that equilibrium less appealing for UK based players. France was, or is, so fishy that after Winamax opened they also accepted EU players there, and before that place hit equilibrium it was the best place to make money in poker.
Luckily for you, you have access to Sky Poker which has a higher base profitability (equilibrium) than most other sites, because it's UK only.
I would say the games you play are probably some of the most profitable in terms of ROI on the whole interweb, £1 hi/lo on Sky Poker, so it says very little about your ability as a player. That's not to say you are bad, its just that we're working with super skewed data.
EDIT: The equilibrium here is about how much money one player can reasonably make playing poker for a living.
EDIT 2: UKGC regs are the biggest factor in the UK wrt to this. They hit hard and you will see win rates drop, and some pros will drop out, restoring the equilibrium eventually.
You are a zealot and a hypocrite. I'm not having a dig. These are just facts. I wish you were neither.
The point about the American market going isn't comprehensive enough. Abnormally profitable businesses like Stars pre-BF don't immediately react and demand the same annual profit. They increase their price and diversify their offering where they can (spins, casino, sports where they don't already have it and the investment makes sense). They also cut their cloth accordingly: no more Supernova rakeback, no more US advertising, cut back on the loss-making activities like free deposits and withdrawels, etc. Even then, they expect their profit to take a hit like many businesses did with the economic shock of COVID.
"Black Friday" did not happen overnight. It was 5 years in the making.
The UIGEA was passed in 2006. The then-largest poker site in the World, Party Poker, immediately ceased accepting US players. I vividly recall assisting Mike Sexton trying to explain the reasons why in Vegas, and getting dogs abuse. So Party, and a whole host of other poker sites such as i-poker, made adjustments in 2006. Rather than 2011. Only 3 did not, including Stars.
Tastes changed in poker for a whole host of reasons. Not just Black Friday. For example:-
1. Profits for poker sites were never as large as expected;
2. Losing players could not fool themselves that they were really winning players, thanks to the online tools such as Sharkscope
3. Advancements in technology drastically reduced overlay, such as Late Reg and the ability to open new tables after the start time
4. Sponsorship pretty much disappeared, meaning "famous" poker players increasingly had to spend their own money. Because attracting new players was not as lucrative as originally hoped
5. Like any new game, plethora of info to refine the optimal playing of the game
It wasn't a question of "replacing" revenue. Just what every business does-trying to cross-sell to associated products.
Tastes also change. It's not "non-poker" clientele. Just that many people want faster games. To give the obvious comparator, the skills required to be successful in T-20 cricket are rather different to Test cricket. But it's still cricket.
The reason people get aggressive towards you is not because poker (like life) is ever-changing. It is because you make the ginormous leap from owners of poker sites doing perfectly legal things to boost profits to sites fixing the deck illegally. Online poker works in exactly the same way as live poker. With the one exception that live has more weak players.
That is the simple fact. Together with the fact that, to be a winning player at poker is 100 times more difficult than it was 15 years ago.
You don't have to believe that. But it is the only logical position. Some of the finest maths brains play poker. And a substantial minority of those brains believe online poker works differently. And precisely none of them have come up with any credible evidence.
Have you noticed that the two LIVE Poker SPT's this Year have been won by ONLINE Poker players from here at SKYPOKER, with the third, and latest one in GLASGOW having @johnmonty as Chip Leader (412K chips) also being from SKYPOKER ....( GOOD LUCK John mate )
Funny how these very good ONLINE Poker players do so well LIVE too .......I wonder why that is ?
..... or are they just 'Thrill seeking Gamblers getting Lucky' ?
In many respects, £1 HU PLO8 is ideal, provided the aim is to make a profit (as opposed to the size of that profit). For some people making a profit from a hobby, for whatever reason, is more important than anything else. Nothing wrong with that. Exactly the same applies for people who are happy to lose money for the "thrill"
Plo8 has far less online teaching resources-natural ability more likely to hold up than in say NLHE
The buy-in is too small to make a profit commensurate with working, so next to no other winning players. Most are going to be weak Recs-some even mis-clicked the wrong game
The few winning players who do play at this sort of level are going to mass table, which is (again) exploitable
To be fair, I have seen a lot of massive winning players go busto purely because of bad game selection. For example, Spins is totally different to MTTs-I know I don't possess the right skill-set for them
1. I wont put the effort in that sounds bad but I think to be truly world class at something you have to make a world class effort, and I just prefer better work life balance then that. I will if probably make a decent effort to get to a point where I can make a decent income.
2. I lack the intelligence, I have actually had my IQ professionally tested, why? well I only ever told 3 people on sky that and I believe one of them has told others but I would rather not declare it on the forums. Suffice to say MY IQ is above average but I am not in genius territory and I kind of think you need to be if your going to become world class standard.
So because I lack both the effort and the intelligence to be world class, there will always be some poker players considerably better then me. My priority from the game will be to make the highest income I can from the game. I am aware my game can be off when I tilt which does not happen often however in MTTS your whole night can be decided by a two or three hands eg if you lose that win that hand you bank first for that this makes you profitable if you lose you have a losing night. Online Cash games I believe rightly or wrongly to be the toughest games to beat so why make it hard on myself? I can make X playing another type of game but I can only make X-n (where n>0) from cash why play cash for ego reasons?
there are many poker players I am way better then and many i am may worse then. Why care about proving myself good I just care about making the best profit I can.
I am not at the point where I have the results showing I can do this for a living but I think its clear I would like to get to that point. at the moment at least poker is a profitable hobby.
You may, of course, say its a freeroll, so he didnt care... errr someone dedicating time and upon reaching a final table will play to his best ability, believe. There was 6 left at this point with 3 tickets on offer.
So the first hand i couldnt believe, he is in the BB and me being the absolute short stack push all in... he is the big stack around 100k and it will cost him approx 9k getting better than 2-1 on his call, so its an auto call... especially as i could have any 2 and he knows this. So i wasnt going to get tricky, as i know as an assumed good player, he cant and wont fold to an all in.
And then, he goes down to 50k, but still 2nd in chips and i push all in some time later... this time its an easy fold for him as a call here with a very average hand would decimate his quite comfortable chances of getting that top 3. Hes not getting 2-1 either and i know he will fold unless he has a premium hand. Its basic play when you dont need to win the tournament.
I think these 2 very basic play errors (in a place required only tournament), shows that the standard is not knowing much about poker these days and aggressive lucking out is very much the in thing, as decks will often oblige. This is very obvious when they play live.
@TheWaddy briefly if straight cash game you are correct this would be a call with almost any two.
you are however playing at this point where if stacks were even and ability equal everyone has a 50% chance of winning £110 ticket or nothing. if two players go all in and one busts there are now 5 players left and 3 who win. the other 4 players on the table just gained money in ev terms without been involved.
also if your heads up and your exactly 3bb deep in the bb and sb shoves into your getting exactly 2 to 1 odds.
according to nash heads up you should still fold 83o 82o 73o 72o 63o 62o 52o 42o and 32o. I dont know exactly how ICM would affect this but considering you have more then 2 players and ICM factoring in I am sure optimum folding range would be wider then this. Monty is a very strong player who likely has a much better idea then the vast majority of the correct play, and considering the value at this stage I am sure he would be taking the game seriously.
What are your thoughts on the validity of this score?
Have you not learned yet, that due to the 'slightly limited' SKYPoker software .......posting two Hand Histories (HH) on the same post, has the second HH coming up without suits.
We can always learn something from others .......IF we want to
EDIT:
Just a couple of observations......In the first hand you over-exaggerated his stack by over 50% to be around 100K, when it was actually just under 62K.....was that to fit your story ?
In the other hand, I see he knocked you out in 5th place....... so he then had a nice stack with 3 seats and only 4 players left. Are you just bitter because you just missed out on a £110 Sunday Major seat?
.......and because a player chooses not to conform with how you think they should play?
I see @johnmonty isn't in tonight's Sunday Major did he win a seat in the end with your chips ? .....( though neither is @giesahaun who may likely be playing SPT Glasgow too ) Hopefully they will both be doing well playing LIVE with a 'Plastic Deck' .....and their 'Online ability'
I would imagine he has that big stack in Glasgow, making god awful decisions and the live pro's looking at each other shaking their heads.... A bit like Jerry Yang winning the WSOP main event
I mean i knew we would get the mistakes backed here.... yet at the table his friends put up 'lol!! good call john', so at least we could see they thought wtf too....
i maintain the first is an auto call, due to pot odds and also without damaging his stack too much on a loss, with the chance to eliminate a desperate short stack. Basic play.
The second, he knows almost 100% hes behind. There is a high chance he is going to be dominated v AK, A10, KJ, KQ type of hands which would put him 3-1, JJ QQ at 7-2, any ace 2 through 9 at 6-4... as well as 10 10, KK, AA putting him in trouble. If he loses, he then becomes the short stack from a comfortable position. Fold is a basic play here.
I know he is definitely a better DYM player than me. It's not even close.
And this MTT, due to the stacks and prizes, is effectively a DYM.
Your theory appears to be this. Getting 2.1-1 on your money, you should call with any 2. 3 2 off, all sorts. You completely ignore someone pointing out Nash charts, as though they are talking a foreign language. "Auto call" indeed-not just ignoring Nash, ignoring relative stack sizes and how wide and how often he believes you are shoving. Without wishing to sound obvious, any competent player calls wider when someone is frequently shoving.
While when getting 1.8-1 on your money, you believe you should definitely fold K 10, even though it is a better than average hand. Personally, I would have folded that 2nd hand-but I suspect that is my error, not his.
Please stop. You are embarrassing yourself.