ok now we also have a clearer picture from solar carro--
however nothing changes even though there had been a previous incident happen with 4 4's--
it is something that can happen at any casino and has done in the past on several occasions that i can remember-- however-- what happens in all tournaments if you notice NOW-- before the td starts by saying- dealers shuffle up and deal- the cards are spread in an arc face up usually hearts clubs diamonds spades for all to see--the dealer is responsible as the guardian at his seat for the pack to be correct that starting point--
it is wrong to think even if the player had an ace of hearts that it was he who was cheating and if he had tha ace how must he be feeling with eyes looking at him--
even though the dealer said he checked the cards--its still his responsibility-he should be in charge of all proceedings at his table--
as i said before--the hand is void--chips returned--dealer taken off (if possible break that table)-- yes there needs to be an inquiry-- but not at that time and moment-- the game needs to move on as quickly as possible for the sake of ALL the players in the tournament--
very interesting post into the conundrums of tournament poker--
Any players interested in understanding the generally accepted Rules of Poker (almost no rules of Live poker are universally accepted) should spend 5 or 10 minutes reading up "Robert's Rules of Poker", the latest edition being "Version 11". google is your friend, but please do not Post a Link to RROP, as it would be non-compliant.
Here is the relevant rule......
"....If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule)......"
(The "next rule" refers to when a player KNEW the deck was defective, which is a different matter of course, as a Penalty should be imposed on the miscreant).
The thing to be careful of when a "defective deck" is discovered is trying to second guess whay may have happened in earlier hands. Forget all that - what's done is done, & only the "current" hand can be corrected.
In Blackpool some years ago, myself and another guy BOTH rivered the nut flush, both of us were holding the A of Spades AND the Q of spades!
A Ruling was called, we chopped the pot, no arguments, no fuss or bother, it happens, next case. The TD (Yogi-Bear, now at DTD), then counted the cards, & there were 65 cards - which included 26 spades, two complete "sets" of spades.
NOW it all got uppity though. A player who had been near felted against me an orbit earlier when I hit a spade flush (there's a thing, with 26 spades in the deck!), was well miffed, he wanted his chips back. One could see his point, but it's not possible to rectify anything at that stage, & he had a very small brain, so would not accept the Ruling, & ended up getting himself a Time Penalty, & later, disqualificatiion, for perrsistent arguing. (He was from Yorkshire).
And yes, the Dealer should have realised her deck was 25% "bigger" than normal, but she was a newbie, & everyone makes mistakes.
I was on the wrong end of a similar situation at the Aviation in Paris once in an all-night Cash Game, same scenario, but there were 19 clubs in the deck, & two of us were holding the 5 of clubs. This time, because they were French, & I am English, I got a shocker of a Ruling. No point arguing, I just got up & left. Can't be doing with argumentative Frenchies. (The word "argumentative" there was quite unnecessary).
I was under the impression that if it was proved a player in a tourny had cheated, it had to be started again but it has to be proved! There must be a ruling on rouge decks??? Do the casinos still take cheaters in the back room and smash thier hands with a hammer? Posted by waynecure
I have played when a deck has been "tampered" with years back when I first started out and it was a dealer dealt tournament - the player was removed and the tournament continued as normal. On another occasion a player had scooped a pot and took some chips from his neighbours stack which the player didn't notice till the break, he reported to the TD that he had some chips missing and they checked the cameras and caught the villain at it nicking his chips and once again the villain was escorted off the premises and the tournament continued, I am unsure whether his chip stack was removed or not in this situation!!
This is a simple one. Any players interested in understanding the generally accepted Rules of Poker (almost no rules of Live poker are universally accepted) should spend 5 or 10 minutes reading up "Robert's Rules of Poker", the latest edition being "Version 11". google is your friend, but please do not Post a Link to RROP, as it would be non-compliant. Here is the relevant rule...... "....If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule)......" (The "next rule" refers to when a player KNEW the deck was defective, which is a different matter of course, as a Penalty should be imposed on the miscreant). The thing to be careful of when a "defective deck" is discovered is trying to second guess whay may have happened in earlier hands. Forget all that - what's done is done, & only the "current" hand can be corrected. In Blackpool some years ago, myself and another guy BOTH rivered the nut flush, both of us were holding the A of Spades AND the Q of spades! A Ruling was called, we chopped the pot, no arguments, no fuss or bother, it happens, next case. The TD (Yogi-Bear, now at DTD), then counted the cards, & there were 65 cards - which included 26 spades, two complete "sets" of spades. NOW it all got uppity though. A player who had been near felted against me an orbit earlier when I hit a spade flush (there's a thing, with 26 spades in the deck!), was well miffed, he wanted his chips back. One could see his point, but it's not possible to rectify anything at that stage, & he had a very small brain, so would not accept the Ruling, & ended up getting himself a Time Penalty, & later, disqualificatiion, for perrsistent arguing. (He was from Yorkshire). And yes, the Dealer should have realised her deck was 25% "bigger" than normal, but she was a newbie, & everyone makes mistakes. I was on the wrong end of a similar situation at the Aviation in Paris once in an all-night Cash Game, same scenario, but there were 19 clubs in the deck, & two of us were holding the 5 of clubs. This time, because they were French, & I am English, I got a shocker of a Ruling. No point arguing, I just got up & left. Can't be doing with argumentative Frenchies. (The word "argumentative" there was quite unnecessary). Posted by Tikay10
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Grandad is online!! No need to read those rules with you here Sir!! TBH most rulings are common sense - but there are some weird ones occuring all the time which are just stupid!!
In Response to Re: You are the tournament director.... : WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Grandad is online!! No need to read those rules with you here Sir!! TBH most rulings are common sense - but there are some weird ones occuring all the time which are just stupid!! Posted by dylan12
Yes - most rules ARE common sense. Sadly, not everyone possesses common sense.
Seen as Tikay has enlightened us with the ruling I will now enlighten you all as to what actually happened!!
The hand stood!!!
I had to rebuy when I should have doubled up, we protested the hand should have been declared void, only to be told everyone had the same disadvantage!!!!
They offered me a free meal as compensation LMAO!!!! I declined (some might say Dylan would have been happy with that ;o) ) this was declined and then offered as £20 no lose blackjack/roulette vouchers which were also declined....lol
After I tilted the rebuy off before 10pm...lol...I was offered free entry into the £50 freezout today which Dave is going to take advantage of on my behalf as quite frankly I dont want to play there. Admission of guilt??????
I suppose if the player with pocket aces had both ace of hearts he should be penalised. Although he would not be responsible for the extra ace (unless he was an idiot) he knew the deck was defective. Posted by -Dino66-
Correct.
"....A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal......"
In Response to Re: You are the tournament director.... : Yes - most rules ARE common sense. Sadly, not everyone possesses common sense. PS - See you tomorrow night, no excuses. Posted by Tikay10
Seen as Tikay has enlightened us with the ruling I will now enlighten you all as to what actually happened!! The hand stood!!! I had to rebuy when I should have doubled up, we protested the hand should have been declared void, only to be told everyone had the same disadvantage!!!! They offered me a free meal as compensation LMAO!!!! I declined (some might say Dylan would have been happy with that ;o) ) this was declined and then offered as £20 no lose blackjack/roulette vouchers which were also declined....lol After I tilted the rebuy off before 10pm...lol...I was offered free entry into the £50 freezout today which Dave is going to take advantage of on my behalf as quite frankly I dont want to play there. Admission of guilt?????? Posted by Yorkie74
DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Absolutely shocking Sian!! I would have hit the roof and not even rebought, would have walked str8 out and never to return, disgracefull, I have to say that there are so many places these days where the TD don't seem to understand the rules properly themselves - these are normally in smaller Casinos with a few Holdem mtt's a week, thrown together to try and squeeze more money from punters but they don't fully understand what they are organising!! More Card rooms like DTD are needed imo!!
Don't blame you for not taking their freebies!! But I had to lmao that Dave has no qualms and snaps at the £50 BI mtt lol - he is weak innit
To be fair Dave was already going to the deepstack tonight and has been itching to go for ages and ages and I have just given him a pass out to go.....LOL
The 5 aces were only becoming clear as I was rebuying my chips as quietly as I could (being the 1st to rebuy...lol) as I was kicking myself for walking trip 6's into trip aces, as at the time I thought I had legitimately lost the hand and was inwardly bemoaning my luck and wasnt really paying much attention to the smart a***s claiming to have folded aces as people do sometimes in that situation. My ears starting pricking up when the 2 people claiming to have folded aces were really adamant they had and a bloke at the table insisted on the dealer checking the pack. It all happened quite quickly as I was sat at table 1 right by the cash desk etc and to be honest had I realised I would not have rebought and I would have walked away.
Grosvenor are putting on some pretty good guarantees at the moment so its hard to refuse the freebie. Would be nice for Dave to come home with the £1600 top prize tonight then it would be really funny.....lol
Check the deck yourself when the table/tournament starts, the dealer should spread the deck so you can see every card of every suit if they dont call the floor!
Probably something stupid and end up in spending the night in a cell
i am shocked tho at some of the posts on this thread as I haven,t played at any Grosvners yet, but would have thought this was the last place you would expect this to happen
Myself and a cpl of m8,s have been meaning to go to the one in Blackpool for a while but something always crops up and we are still sorting a date out. I will be looking at the cards a lot more carefully after reading this thread now
Check the deck yourself when the table/tournament starts, the dealer should spread the deck so you can see every card of every suit if they dont call the floor! Posted by beaneh
Do you do this?
It is something I will certainlly make sure I do from now on. I only ever half heartedly did it before as never thought I needed to. Couldnt tell you if I saw the cards fanned out or not last night to be honest I didnt pay any attention at all. The other 9 players at the table didnt check the cards either and I am pretty sure not many (if any) of the other 74 entrants did either.
What if you join as an alternate? Can you ask to check the cards at that point??
In Response to Re: You are the tournament director.... : Do you do this? It is something I will certainlly make sure I do from now on. I only ever half heartedly did it before as never thought I needed to. Couldnt tell you if I saw the cards fanned out or not last night to be honest I didnt pay any attention at all. The other 9 players at the table didnt check the cards either and I am pretty sure not many (if any) of the other 74 entrants did either. What if you join as an alternate? Can you ask to check the cards at that point?? Posted by Yorkie74
if you're late to a table you have to trust its been done, (the better the dealer is the more likely it will have been done).
I always check the cards as the dealers spreads them when I play, when a table starts, when a new deck comes in etc.
sian(yorkie) this whole episode doesn't sound right for several reasons-- 1-- no td i know would have come to the decision that has been arrived at here-- 2--you maybe wouldn't know but was there a big casino spender at the table-- reason i ask is some casinos don't like to upset big roulette or black jack players--
3-- i wouldn't let the matter rest there--i would write or phone to grosvenor head office--
ask if the rule is standard for all there casinos (they will say no or cannot give than information at that moment) the point being you need to feel safe that there was no collusion between staff and customer and you feel aggrieved at the way the whole situation was handled by the staff in question-- you could be surprised to get a positive response to a call to them-- good luck--
Call on: 08080 212121
Or write to : Grosvenor Casinos Statesman House Stafferton Way Maidenhead Berkshire SL6 1AY
In Response to Re: You are the tournament director.... : Do you do this? It is something I will certainlly make sure I do from now on. I only ever half heartedly did it before as never thought I needed to. Couldnt tell you if I saw the cards fanned out or not last night to be honest I didnt pay any attention at all. The other 9 players at the table didnt check the cards either and I am pretty sure not many (if any) of the other 74 entrants did either. What if you join as an alternate? Can you ask to check the cards at that point?? Posted by Yorkie74
...or get moved to the Table, mid-Tourney......
You can, within reason, ask to have the deck checked at any time, but a little common-sense & sense of perspective is needed, it's a VERY rare occurrence.
As to Grosvenor getting it wrong, that's a little unfair on Grosvenor - the problem is common to ALL Cardrooms which are run as part of a Casino, as Poker is not, in itself, a commercially viable initiative for a Mainstream casino, & therefore they do not train their staff terribly well.
DTD is a different kettle of fish, as it's essentially a Cardroom, not a Casino.
Comments
however nothing changes even though there had been a previous incident happen with 4 4's--
it is something that can happen at any casino and has done in the past on several occasions that i can remember--
however-- what happens in all tournaments if you notice NOW--
before the td starts by saying- dealers shuffle up and deal- the cards are spread in an arc face up usually hearts clubs diamonds spades for all to see--the dealer is responsible as the guardian at his seat for the pack to be correct that starting point--
it is wrong to think even if the player had an ace of hearts that it was he who was cheating and if he had tha ace how must he be feeling with eyes looking at him--
even though the dealer said he checked the cards--its still his responsibility-he should be in charge of all proceedings at his table--
as i said before--the hand is void--chips returned--dealer taken off (if possible break that table)--
yes there needs to be an inquiry--
but not at that time and moment--
the game needs to move on as quickly as possible for the sake of ALL the players in the tournament--
very interesting post into the conundrums of tournament poker--
does anyone know who shot wild bill hikcok--
There must be a ruling on rouge decks???
Do the casinos still take cheaters in the back room and smash thier hands with a hammer?
This is a simple one.
Any players interested in understanding the generally accepted Rules of Poker (almost no rules of Live poker are universally accepted) should spend 5 or 10 minutes reading up "Robert's Rules of Poker", the latest edition being "Version 11". google is your friend, but please do not Post a Link to RROP, as it would be non-compliant.
Here is the relevant rule......
"....If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule)......"
(The "next rule" refers to when a player KNEW the deck was defective, which is a different matter of course, as a Penalty should be imposed on the miscreant).
The thing to be careful of when a "defective deck" is discovered is trying to second guess whay may have happened in earlier hands. Forget all that - what's done is done, & only the "current" hand can be corrected.
In Blackpool some years ago, myself and another guy BOTH rivered the nut flush, both of us were holding the A of Spades AND the Q of spades!
A Ruling was called, we chopped the pot, no arguments, no fuss or bother, it happens, next case. The TD (Yogi-Bear, now at DTD), then counted the cards, & there were 65 cards - which included 26 spades, two complete "sets" of spades.
NOW it all got uppity though. A player who had been near felted against me an orbit earlier when I hit a spade flush (there's a thing, with 26 spades in the deck!), was well miffed, he wanted his chips back. One could see his point, but it's not possible to rectify anything at that stage, & he had a very small brain, so would not accept the Ruling, & ended up getting himself a Time Penalty, & later, disqualificatiion, for perrsistent arguing. (He was from Yorkshire).
And yes, the Dealer should have realised her deck was 25% "bigger" than normal, but she was a newbie, & everyone makes mistakes.
I was on the wrong end of a similar situation at the Aviation in Paris once in an all-night Cash Game, same scenario, but there were 19 clubs in the deck, & two of us were holding the 5 of clubs. This time, because they were French, & I am English, I got a shocker of a Ruling. No point arguing, I just got up & left. Can't be doing with argumentative Frenchies. (The word "argumentative" there was quite unnecessary).
Only 1 orbit sp id guess that they started the whole tourny again???
The only other thing i could think of was allowing the hand to stand but cant believe they would do this
Gareth
Grandad is online!! No need to read those rules with you here Sir!!
TBH most rulings are common sense - but there are some weird ones occuring all the time which are just stupid!!
PS - See you tomorrow night, no excuses.
I suppose if the player with pocket aces had both ace of hearts he should be penalised.
Although he would not be responsible for the extra ace (unless he was an idiot) he knew the deck was defective.
The hand stood!!!
I had to rebuy when I should have doubled up, we protested the hand should have been declared void, only to be told everyone had the same disadvantage!!!!
They offered me a free meal as compensation LMAO!!!! I declined (some might say Dylan would have been happy with that ;o) ) this was declined and then offered as £20 no lose blackjack/roulette vouchers which were also declined....lol
After I tilted the rebuy off before 10pm...lol...I was offered free entry into the £50 freezout today which Dave is going to take advantage of on my behalf as quite frankly I dont want to play there. Admission of guilt??????
"....A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal......"
Absolutely shocking Sian!! I would have hit the roof and not even rebought, would have walked str8 out and never to return, disgracefull, I have to say that there are so many places these days where the TD don't seem to understand the rules properly themselves - these are normally in smaller Casinos with a few Holdem mtt's a week, thrown together to try and squeeze more money from punters but they don't fully understand what they are organising!! More Card rooms like DTD are needed imo!!
Don't blame you for not taking their freebies!! But I had to lmao that Dave has no qualms and snaps at the £50 BI mtt lol - he is weak innit
The 5 aces were only becoming clear as I was rebuying my chips as quietly as I could (being the 1st to rebuy...lol) as I was kicking myself for walking trip 6's into trip aces, as at the time I thought I had legitimately lost the hand and was inwardly bemoaning my luck and wasnt really paying much attention to the smart a***s claiming to have folded aces as people do sometimes in that situation. My ears starting pricking up when the 2 people claiming to have folded aces were really adamant they had and a bloke at the table insisted on the dealer checking the pack. It all happened quite quickly as I was sat at table 1 right by the cash desk etc and to be honest had I realised I would not have rebought and I would have walked away.
Grosvenor are putting on some pretty good guarantees at the moment so its hard to refuse the freebie. Would be nice for Dave to come home with the £1600 top prize tonight then it would be really funny.....lol
Probably something stupid and end up in spending the night in a cell
i am shocked tho at some of the posts on this thread as I haven,t played at any Grosvners yet, but would have thought this was the last place you would expect this to happen
Myself and a cpl of m8,s have been meaning to go to the one in Blackpool for a while but something always crops up and we are still sorting a date out. I will be looking at the cards a lot more carefully after reading this thread now
It is something I will certainlly make sure I do from now on. I only ever half heartedly did it before as never thought I needed to. Couldnt tell you if I saw the cards fanned out or not last night to be honest I didnt pay any attention at all. The other 9 players at the table didnt check the cards either and I am pretty sure not many (if any) of the other 74 entrants did either.
What if you join as an alternate? Can you ask to check the cards at that point??
1-- no td i know would have come to the decision that has been arrived at here--
2--you maybe wouldn't know but was there a big casino spender at the table--
reason i ask is some casinos don't like to upset big roulette or black jack players--
3-- i wouldn't let the matter rest there--i would write or phone to grosvenor head office--
ask if the rule is standard for all there casinos (they will say no or cannot give than information at that moment)
the point being you need to feel safe that there was no collusion between staff and customer and you feel aggrieved at the way the whole situation was handled by the staff in question--
you could be surprised to get a positive response to a call to them--
good luck--
Call on: 08080 212121
Or write to :
Grosvenor Casinos
Statesman House
Stafferton Way
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 1AY
You can, within reason, ask to have the deck checked at any time, but a little common-sense & sense of perspective is needed, it's a VERY rare occurrence.
As to Grosvenor getting it wrong, that's a little unfair on Grosvenor - the problem is common to ALL Cardrooms which are run as part of a Casino, as Poker is not, in itself, a commercially viable initiative for a Mainstream casino, & therefore they do not train their staff terribly well.
DTD is a different kettle of fish, as it's essentially a Cardroom, not a Casino.