Hi Dave, I would have folded, because of the amount it would have left me and the fact that I could find a better situation with a stack size that gives you a lot of play. Please don't take this as a criticism, as i'm a tightish player and you finished higher than me. I have come to the opinion that you dont win a tournament by the hands you win but by the hands you get off, that save your chips. I made one mistake in 14 hours of play that crippled me, but i will put that in the mind bank and remember that hand next i'm in a similar situation. As long as we learn from our mistakes its not to bad. Well done m8 and see you on the tables. col Posted by mr_mbro
Cheers mr-mbro i dont mind criticism it might make me think a bit harder about the calls i am making in the future,thanks for comments and see ya soon m8...
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : Hi tk thanks for comments i will be watching on thurs to see what you say,i have been mulling the hand over for the last two days at work and end up in a sulk lol but from the general concencus i think most people would of folded and waited for a better hand,to be honest i knew it would be a flip and when i saw only the one over i couldnt of asked for much more really,so next time i will have to ask myself if i really want to get my chips in on a flip.. Posted by DAVEYZZ
ps if you want to ring me during the show tk,(to ask me what the heck i was thinking of) feel free..
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : Hi tk thanks for comments i will be watching on thurs to see what you say,i have been mulling the hand over for the last two days at work and end up in a sulk lol but from the general concencus i think most people would of folded and waited for a better hand,to be honest i knew it would be a flip and when i saw only the one over i couldnt of asked for much more really,so next time i will have to ask myself if i really want to get my chips in on a flip.. Posted by DAVEYZZ
Davey,
Be careful how you interpret my words, I write in jibberish, & it does not always come out as intended..
It's not so much a case of "waiting for a better hand". It's more a case of waiting for a better situation.
If you PUSH (first) with Fives, that's absolutely hunky-dory. In fact you can push first (given you have 17 X bb) with any two random cards. That is far better than Calling with 5-5.
In simple terms, it's this.
Assume when you call with Fives, your Oppo has two overs. So we are, roughly, 55/45, lets say Evens, or flipping.
But if you PUSH with 5-5, what odds do you think your is your hand now? Because the Odds to Call with 5-5, & the Odds to Jam with 5-5, are not the same......
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : Davey, Be careful how you interpret my words, I write in jibberish, & it does not always come out as intended.. It's not so much a case of "waiting for a better hand". It's more a case of waiting for a better situation. If you PUSH (first) with Fives, that's absolutely hunky-dory. In fact you can push first (given you have 17 X bb) with any two random cards. That is far better than Calling with 5-5. In simple terms, it's this. Assume when you call with Fives, your Oppo has two overs. So we are, roughly, 55/45, lets say Evens, or flipping. But if you PUSH with 5-5, what odds do you think your is your hand now? Because the Odds to Call with 5-5, & the Odds to Jam with 5-5, are not the same...... Posted by Tikay10
In short get your chips in first and give them the problem !
This is why I love poker - Tony we'll never agree - but how wonderful is that! Guess i'm just down with the kidz ;-) I have it on good authority that all shrewdies wld indeed snap hand in the air and would also scream we are getting paid lol. But then again, it's all about the win for me..... What can i say! Even if we lose we still have a stack that can do some damage! Looking forward to Michelle's opinion - i'll tune in for sure! Posted by VIRUSXXX
Nice Post, Sir.
What is this Shreddies thing you speak of, please?
A. Do you want to risk pretty much your tournament on a low pair thats at BEST 50-50 and at worst facing an over pair. Really when do you see 22 33 44 when you call an all in with 55, not very often. In this case when you called it was pretty much a dream situation for 55. As soon as you CALLED, you went from playing poker to gambling.
B. What is the BB going to do, you may well thought the Button was "stealing" but he could have been "stealing" with 67 at the very least ( coin toss) and the BB might be sat there with AA. Does the BB have you covered for your stack ?
C. How much you had in the pot. 6k ? Do you really need to be calling with what was a very vunerable hand? You wasnt committed at all.
D. can you pass this hand and then move at the blinds from the button next hand?
Reverse the situation.... A2 went all in from the button, his mind set was what ranges he put you and the bb to call with was pretty small... AA-99 AK AQs....pretty small %, he had what 100k ? theres 25k out there for free...his A looks pretty good in this spot, to win an uncontested pot for 25% of his stack. In his mind the only hands that would require a call is such a small % that this play, with pretty much any 2 cards is profitable....Of course you can only do this so often then the other players will catch on and their calling hand requirement % go up.
So IMO, it was a bad call. You could have waited for better spots, the very next hand certainly being one. You think the BB will call with Q8 if you had pushed 170k and you had not just lost a massive pot. No chance. And you would have been sat there with nearly 200k.
But congrats on getting that far, you must have done something right...
All these hands should be stored in the memory bank for situations in the future.
You get the chips in first then great, you have 2 chances of winning, 1 by winning the pot uncontested, and 2, your hand holds up. By doing it first you increase your chances of winning by 50% or proberly statisically more.
Theres my 2 pence. Sorry if i sound critical. Just with the stack you had in relation to the blinds, you should fold 55 instant to an all in of that size. I think the only hands that I would be calling there are JJ-AA AK AKs AQs , everythingelse I muck instant and wait for a better spot, calling requirements vary depending on how you percieve the player to be and how hes been playing. I sat with Wayne on the first day and he seemed very tight, donno how much he stepped up later in the TNY but seemed to be solid to me only playing his cards. So I got a pretty limited hand range to call with, so proberly muck JJ too.
The problem you are having you are playing a donkament. The blinds get big you have to chuck your chips in, simple as that. I think you are trying to look at it as a game of skill. But in all honesty, there is not a lot of skill in poker when you have less than 15 big blinds. If you want a game of skill play cash, if you want throw you money in pre flop and cross your fingers play tournaments.
As for the hands, they are both very marginal hands, if it is folded round to me in late position or blinds, I shove. Keep my fingers crossed they fold or if they call, as there are 5 cards to come you are never that far behind. I wouldnt be calling with either hand.
With the greatest respect Bonniedog, this was a 2 day tourny with blind levels of 45 mins so not your normal 7min push fest online. the amount Davey had at that time of the tourny was still enough to wait and get others off. I doubt very much, with the standard fo the field, which included a wsop winner, a gukpt winner,ex apat world champ, and many professionals,that any of the players left in at that stage were donkaments.
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : Nice Post, Sir. What is this Shreddies thing you speak of, please? Posted by Tikay10
LOL you know very well who the Shrewdies are, but for everyone else - they are a bunch of online pros - who are currently out in Vegas winning ma dimez lol
first of all you have to ask yourself if .... A. Do you want to risk pretty much your tournament on a low pair thats at BEST 50-50 and at worst facing an over pair. Really when do you see 22 33 44 when you call an all in with 55, not very often. In this case when you called it was pretty much a dream situation for 55. As soon as you CALLED, you went from playing poker to gambling. B. What is the BB going to do, you may well thought the Button was "stealing" but he could have been "stealing" with 67 at the very least ( coin toss) and the BB might be sat there with AA. Does the BB have you covered for your stack ? C. How much you had in the pot. 6k ? Do you really need to be calling with what was a very vunerable hand? You wasnt committed at all. D. can you pass this hand and then move at the blinds from the button next hand? Reverse the situation.... A2 went all in from the button, his mind set was what ranges he put you and the bb to call with was pretty small... AA-99 AK AQs....pretty small %, he had what 100k ? theres 25k out there for free...his A looks pretty good in this spot, to win an uncontested pot for 25% of his stack. In his mind the only hands that would require a call is such a small % that this play, with pretty much any 2 cards is profitable....Of course you can only do this so often then the other players will catch on and their calling hand requirement % go up. So IMO, it was a bad call. You could have waited for better spots, the very next hand certainly being one. You think the BB will call with Q8 if you had pushed 170k and you had not just lost a massive pot. No chance. And you would have been sat there with nearly 200k. But congrats on getting that far, you must have done something right... All these hands should be stored in the memory bank for situations in the future. You get the chips in first then great, you have 2 chances of winning, 1 by winning the pot uncontested, and 2, your hand holds up. By doing it first you increase your chances of winning by 50% or proberly statisically more. Theres my 2 pence. Sorry if i sound critical. Just with the stack you had in relation to the blinds, you should fold 55 instant to an all in of that size. I think the only hands that I would be calling there are JJ-AA AK AKs AQs , everythingelse I muck instant and wait for a better spot, calling requirements vary depending on how you percieve the player to be and how hes been playing. I sat with Wayne on the first day and he seemed very tight, donno how much he stepped up later in the TNY but seemed to be solid to me only playing his cards. So I got a pretty limited hand range to call with. Liam Posted by LB44
Just a quick note,
blinds were 5 / 10 with a 1k ante Davey was in the BB IF he loses, he still has a stack that most players at the table need to consider before calling - and one "steal" means he adds 25% (ish) to his stack.
The q8 call was rather loose unless the opponent had sufficient amount of chips to do it.
Davey imo - don't beat yourself up over this - Tikay makes a great point about with his non linear equations - the only thing is - if the player to your left is loose with his calling ranges then the percentages begin to even out again.
The fact is you went for the win, hindsight is perfect, but at this stage you need to take every opportunity afforded to you. You made a good read, you got outdrawn. It happens to the best of us.
But it wasn't your tournament life on the line....
With the greatest respect Bonniedog, this was a 2 day tourny with blind levels of 45 mins so not your normal 7min push fest online. the amount Davey had at that time of the tourny was still enough to wait and get others off. I doubt very much, with the standard fo the field, which included a wsop winner, a gukpt winner,ex apat world champ, and many professionals,that any of the players left in at that stage were donkaments. Posted by mr_mbro
All tournys end up as a pre flop push fest. I dont play them as you work hard playing proper poker, then when it comes to deciding who gets the main prizes, you might as well log onto sky bingo. Just giving my advice and thats play cash if you want a game of skill or play tournys if you like to shove it in and cross your fingers.
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : Just a quick note, blinds were 5 / 10 with a 1k ante Davey was in the BB IF he loses, he still has a stack that most players at the table need to consider before calling - and one "steal" means he adds 25% (ish) to his stack. The q8 call was rather loose unless the opponent had sufficient amount of chips to do it. Davey imo - don't beat yourself up over this - Tikay makes a great point about with his non linear equations - the only thing is - if the player to your left is loose with his calling ranges then the percentages begin to even out again. The fact is you went for the win, hindsight is perfect, but at this stage you need to take every opportunity afforded to you. You made a good read, you got outdrawn. It happens to the best of us. But it wasn't your tournament life on the line.... Posted by VIRUSXXX
Sorry I thought he was in the SB Im sorry but I cant see calling with 5 5 for 60% of your stack and in what was proberly the biggest tournament of his life with 45min blinds is gonna be a good call. I proberly even fold J J in this spot. If I had pushed from the Button, I would be very disappionted to see 5 5 call for nearly 2/3rds of his stack. But hey, this is the beauty of Poker, what is 1 man's Call is anothers fold. On a purly mathimatical basis, fold would have been the best option. IMO
first of all you have to ask yourself if .... A. Do you want to risk pretty much your tournament on a low pair thats at BEST 50-50 and at worst facing an over pair. Really when do you see 22 33 44 when you call an all in with 55, not very often. In this case when you called it was pretty much a dream situation for 55. As soon as you CALLED, you went from playing poker to gambling. B. What is the BB going to do, you may well thought the Button was "stealing" but he could have been "stealing" with 67 at the very least ( coin toss) and the BB might be sat there with AA. Does the BB have you covered for your stack ? C. How much you had in the pot. 6k ? Do you really need to be calling with what was a very vunerable hand? You wasnt committed at all. D. can you pass this hand and then move at the blinds from the button next hand? Reverse the situation.... A2 went all in from the button, his mind set was what ranges he put you and the bb to call with was pretty small... AA-99 AK AQs....pretty small %, he had what 100k ? theres 25k out there for free...his A looks pretty good in this spot, to win an uncontested pot for 25% of his stack. In his mind the only hands that would require a call is such a small % that this play, with pretty much any 2 cards is profitable....Of course you can only do this so often then the other players will catch on and their calling hand requirement % go up. So IMO, it was a bad call. You could have waited for better spots, the very next hand certainly being one. You think the BB will call with Q8 if you had pushed 170k and you had not just lost a massive pot. No chance. And you would have been sat there with nearly 200k. But congrats on getting that far, you must have done something right... All these hands should be stored in the memory bank for situations in the future. You get the chips in first then great, you have 2 chances of winning, 1 by winning the pot uncontested, and 2, your hand holds up. By doing it first you increase your chances of winning by 50% or proberly statisically more. Theres my 2 pence. Sorry if i sound critical. Just with the stack you had in relation to the blinds, you should fold 55 instant to an all in of that size. I think the only hands that I would be calling there are JJ-AA AK AKs AQs , everythingelse I muck instant and wait for a better spot, calling requirements vary depending on how you percieve the player to be and how hes been playing. I sat with Wayne on the first day and he seemed very tight, donno how much he stepped up later in the TNY but seemed to be solid to me only playing his cards. So I got a pretty limited hand range to call with. Liam Posted by LB44
HI liam thanks for the comments i put bthe question up so i could get peoples views and there has been a lot of good response with the outcome mainly being that i should of folded,i think the most relevent point you make is that i went from playing poker to gambling,and in my heart i knew it would be a gamble and took it so can't complain at the outcome.....(but i fold next time in same situation)
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : HI liam thanks for the comments i put bthe question up so i could get peoples views and there has been a lot of good response with the outcome mainly being that i should of folded,i think the most relevent point you make is that i went from playing poker to gambling,and in my heart i knew it would be a gamble and took it so can't complain at the outcome.....(but i fold next time in same situation) cheers mate dave... Posted by DAVEYZZ
A good question I have just thought of just now......If the SB would have flat called you. What is your next move? 29K in the pot, you have 55.
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : A good question I have just thought of just now......If the SB would have flat called you. What is your next move? 29K in the pot, you have 55. Posted by LB44
i knew the right answer is to call a bet flop,but tbh i think i would of raised 5 blinds(50k) hoping for the fold then play the flop if he calls..
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : i knew the right answer is to call a bet flop,but tbh i think i would of raised 5 blinds(50k) hoping for the fold then play the flop if he calls.. Posted by DAVEYZZ
I definatly wouldnt check. Proberly the right answer would be to raise 40-50k or just shove allin , find out where you stand. You dont really wanna see a flop holding 55 in this situation. Unless he was trappy player, he wouldnt really be calling with anything big enough to call half his stack to then fold the flop if he missed, or push over the top of your 50k bet. Hence the reason why he pushed in the first place, effectivly taking his position dissadvantage and chip disadvantage away and put you to a very tough call.
Comments
ps if you want to ring me during the show tk,(to ask me what the heck i was thinking of) feel free..
Be careful how you interpret my words, I write in jibberish, & it does not always come out as intended..
It's not so much a case of "waiting for a better hand". It's more a case of waiting for a better situation.
If you PUSH (first) with Fives, that's absolutely hunky-dory. In fact you can push first (given you have 17 X bb) with any two random cards. That is far better than Calling with 5-5.
In simple terms, it's this.
Assume when you call with Fives, your Oppo has two overs. So we are, roughly, 55/45, lets say Evens, or flipping.
But if you PUSH with 5-5, what odds do you think your is your hand now? Because the Odds to Call with 5-5, & the Odds to Jam with 5-5, are not the same......
Spot-on analysis.
2nd if you knew he had A2 would you have called ??? im sure you going to say yes ... so how can u be judgemental of your play ???
your call was better than you expected you just got outdraw m8..... cya soon
This is why I love poker - Tony we'll never agree - but how wonderful is that!
Guess i'm just down with the kidz ;-)
I have it on good authority that all shrewdies wld indeed snap hand in the air and would also scream we are getting paid lol.
But then again, it's all about the win for me..... What can i say! Even if we lose we still have a stack that can do some damage!
Looking forward to Michelle's opinion - i'll tune in for sure!
What is this Shreddies thing you speak of, please?
first of all you have to ask yourself if ....
A. Do you want to risk pretty much your tournament on a low pair thats at BEST 50-50 and at worst facing an over pair. Really when do you see 22 33 44 when you call an all in with 55, not very often. In this case when you called it was pretty much a dream situation for 55. As soon as you CALLED, you went from playing poker to gambling.
B. What is the BB going to do, you may well thought the Button was "stealing" but he could have been "stealing" with 67 at the very least ( coin toss) and the BB might be sat there with AA. Does the BB have you covered for your stack ?
C. How much you had in the pot. 6k ? Do you really need to be calling with what was a very vunerable hand? You wasnt committed at all.
D. can you pass this hand and then move at the blinds from the button next hand?
Reverse the situation.... A2 went all in from the button, his mind set was what ranges he put you and the bb to call with was pretty small... AA-99 AK AQs....pretty small %, he had what 100k ? theres 25k out there for free...his A looks pretty good in this spot, to win an uncontested pot for 25% of his stack.
In his mind the only hands that would require a call is such a small % that this play, with pretty much any 2 cards is profitable....Of course you can only do this so often then the other players will catch on and their calling hand requirement % go up.
So IMO, it was a bad call. You could have waited for better spots, the very next hand certainly being one. You think the BB will call with Q8 if you had pushed 170k and you had not just lost a massive pot. No chance. And you would have been sat there with nearly 200k.
But congrats on getting that far, you must have done something right...
All these hands should be stored in the memory bank for situations in the future.
You get the chips in first then great, you have 2 chances of winning, 1 by winning the pot uncontested, and 2, your hand holds up. By doing it first you increase your chances of winning by 50% or proberly statisically more.
Theres my 2 pence. Sorry if i sound critical. Just with the stack you had in relation to the blinds, you should fold 55 instant to an all in of that size. I think the only hands that I would be calling there are JJ-AA AK AKs AQs , everythingelse I muck instant and wait for a better spot, calling requirements vary depending on how you percieve the player to be and how hes been playing. I sat with Wayne on the first day and he seemed very tight, donno how much he stepped up later in the TNY but seemed to be solid to me only playing his cards. So I got a pretty limited hand range to call with, so proberly muck JJ too.
Liam
The problem you are having you are playing a donkament. The blinds get big you have to chuck your chips in, simple as that. I think you are trying to look at it as a game of skill. But in all honesty, there is not a lot of skill in poker when you have less than 15 big blinds. If you want a game of skill play cash, if you want throw you money in pre flop and cross your fingers play tournaments.
As for the hands, they are both very marginal hands, if it is folded round to me in late position or blinds, I shove. Keep my fingers crossed they fold or if they call, as there are 5 cards to come you are never that far behind. I wouldnt be calling with either hand.
LOL you know very well who the Shrewdies are, but for everyone else - they are a bunch of online pros - who are currently out in Vegas winning ma dimez lol
blinds were 5 / 10 with a 1k ante
Davey was in the BB
IF he loses, he still has a stack that most players at the table need to consider before calling - and one "steal" means he adds 25% (ish) to his stack.
The q8 call was rather loose unless the opponent had sufficient amount of chips to do it.
Davey imo - don't beat yourself up over this -
Tikay makes a great point about with his non linear equations - the only thing is - if the player to your left is loose with his calling ranges then the percentages begin to even out again.
The fact is you went for the win, hindsight is perfect, but at this stage you need to take every opportunity afforded to you. You made a good read, you got outdrawn. It happens to the best of us.
But it wasn't your tournament life on the line....
Im sorry but I cant see calling with 5 5 for 60% of your stack and in what was proberly the biggest tournament of his life with 45min blinds is gonna be a good call. I proberly even fold J J in this spot.
If I had pushed from the Button, I would be very disappionted to see 5 5 call for nearly 2/3rds of his stack.
But hey, this is the beauty of Poker, what is 1 man's Call is anothers fold. On a purly mathimatical basis, fold would have been the best option. IMO
cheers mate dave...
A good question I have just thought of just now......If the SB would have flat called you. What is your next move? 29K in the pot, you have 55.
In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:
I definatly wouldnt check. Proberly the right answer would be to raise 40-50k or just shove allin , find out where you stand. You dont really wanna see a flop holding 55 in this situation. Unless he was trappy player, he wouldnt really be calling with anything big enough to call half his stack to then fold the flop if he missed, or push over the top of your 50k bet. Hence the reason why he pushed in the first place, effectivly taking his position dissadvantage and chip disadvantage away and put you to a very tough call.What place did you end up ?
Great Thread this - arguably the best thread on the Sky Poker Forum so far.
Nice range of views & opinions, and all well put.