For once I find a lot to agree with in your last post, stien ! One of the points I have been trying to make and the question I have been asking is about the difference between say 15/30 and higher levels of cash. At the low levels you see many players making a decent profit by playing nitty ABC poker. As you say the regulars at higher levels will pick up on it and find ways of beating it. And to compete at that level you need a lot more to your game.
But if your experience of Sky tournaments is infrequent, other than watching 865 you may be missing something. Obviously the majority of televised events are large fields with many inexperienced and recreational players. And its not usually the perfectly played hands that make good TV ! I play enough larger buyin, smaller field tournaments to know that the majority of players in that type of game are more than competent,and many have a lot more than ABC poker to their game. I dont think I have ever won one by simply playing ABC.
And one of the disadvantages of playing the higher quality tournaments is that I cant pick and choose my opponents. Sometimes I look around a table and just know its going to be tough with no weak players to exploit.
When I do have a serious go at cash, at whatever level I choose to come in, I will certainly follow the good example set by the top guys and pick and choose my opponents as carefully as I can. And trust me, if a James or a Lolufold or quite a few others join me at the table I will have no shame at all. You wont see me for dust ! !
we get told "dont play with scared money" (too high for your br) this is because it is BETTER to play when the amount you will win/lose DOESNT affect your descions during the game.penguin obviously enjoys the excitment and challange of the game, from what i have seen cash players are in it for like beaneh says "its all to do with bis and bb" wish you all the best penguin and hope to see you on cash tbles soon phil
For once I find a lot to agree with in your last post, stien ! One of the points I have been trying to make and the question I have been asking is about the difference between say 15/30 and higher levels of cash. At the low levels you see many players making a decent profit by playing nitty ABC poker. As you say the regulars at higher levels will pick up on it and find ways of beating it. And to compete at that level you need a lot more to your game. But if your experience of Sky tournaments is infrequent, other than watching 865 you may be missing something. Obviously the majority of televised events are large fields with many inexperienced and recreational players . And its not usually the perfectly played hands that make good TV ! I play enough larger buyin, smaller field tournaments to know that the majority of players in that type of game are more than competent,and many have a lot more than ABC poker to their game. I dont think I have ever won one by simply playing ABC. And one of the disadvantages of playing the higher quality tournaments is that I cant pick and choose my opponents. Sometimes I look around a table and just know its going to be tough with no weak players to exploit. When I do have a serious go at cash, at whatever level I choose to come in, I will certainly follow the good example set by the top guys and pick and choose my opponents as carefully as I can. And trust me, if a James or a Lolufold or quite a few others join me at the table I will have no shame at all. You wont see me for dust ! ! Posted by penguin7
IF the average skill level in a sky tourny is 4 (on 1-10 scale) then in a competent field of sky donky players it's probably 6. imo a tough nl200 table will have a bunch of 8's on this same scale.
People seem to think that when they play NL4 they play against people who are rubbish but therefore they 'cant beat them' and that is just a lack of understanding of the game not that it is hard to beat a bad player. Especailly when they only consider short term sample sizes.
In Response to Re: So lets have a go at this cash game! : Alot of people say this and IMO it just means they don't know what they are doing. Whatever game you play nl4 to nl40 you should be able to have an idea of what you can do to win money, unsurprisingly it should be easier to win monays at NL4 than nl40 etc If you are at all competetive and enjoy playing the game for the sake of the game itself then the level really shouldn't matter, it's all about buyins and big blinds. Rememeber that in tournies no one ever has many chips and you barely see many flops, even when you do you hardly ever get to the different possibilities for turn and river, hence why cash players are always regarded as better. You would do well to try recording a session of cash WITH your reasoning for what you are doing and why like Don did. Then watch it through with someone and discuss it etc. Posted by beaneh
That last bit sounds like excellent advice, Beaneh. Thank you. As for playing the game for the games sake, I dont yet enjoy cash enough to simply do that. Far more likely to enter an insignificant little tourny and try a few moves, or often play a PLO8 tournament for £1.
In Response to Re: So lets have a go at this cash game! : That last bit sounds like excellent advice, Beaneh. Thank you. As for playing the game for the games sake, I dont yet enjoy cash enough to simply do that. Far more likely to enter an insignificant little tourny and try a few moves, or often play a PLO8 tournament for £1. Posted by penguin7
the way i commbated this mate is i started playing more tables, something the regs do and i know you where playing 3-4 tables anyways.
Another thing i did was i sometimes loaded a 30p scary STT to fill my need for action, not always great for your game though. This meant i was content with raking in small pots in the cash without hurting my BR.
In Response to Re: So lets have a go at this cash game! : That last bit sounds like excellent advice, Beaneh. Thank you. As for playing the game for the games sake, I dont yet enjoy cash enough to simply do that. Far more likely to enter an insignificant little tourny and try a few moves, or often play a PLO8 tournament for £1. Posted by penguin7
Don't try and instantly play a level where the money means something to you. Play NL4 and work out what it takes to beat those players, if you cant jump off a cliff, if you can then the bug may well bite and in no time you'll be moving up thinking why on earth did I limit myself to playing with 22 bets as a deep stack. Come on 400 big blind pots!
Teamviewer is another good way to help discuss with people who are having similar problems or who you think are better and can provide good advice. It allows you to watch someones screen or for them to watch you and you can talk over skype at the same time etc. Nothing better to help you improve than for you to click abutton wagering your own money then realise you cant explain why and the other persons lays into your move, explaining why at each step it's bad. If you just play on your own and don't ever go back through what you do then you'll never get better.
Cash is great because each time you sit in a cash game it's a chance to try and play perfectly!
I'm quite surprised you dont get a buzz winning a pot at 30nl. I would get a buzz winning at any level. Even free play, The main excitement with poker is winning the hand for me. When I play I just play with numbers. And just aim to play my best and win. Then the money I win is a nice bonus.
Cash is all long term. You have to look at how much you win over one week/month/year to get excited about the money,
Also I think there is decent money to be made at 30nl. I'm not going to talk numbers, but I think playing it full-time would make a decent wage. Better than what mcdonalds would pay anyway lol
As several have said, its best to start smaller and work your way up. Jumping in at the deep end could be very costly.
Thanks for all this constructive stuff. I dont want this thread to degenerate into a cash players are better than tourny players argument. I dont think anyone is arguing that the top cash players are not right up there.
A couple of years ago I played a few big tournaments with a friend ( who is not a particularly good player) watching over my shoulder. He got me to justify every decision to him, and to explain what had happened when I made a mistake. Huge benefit to my game ! I would probably need someone more experienced to watch me at cash.
If you have followed this thread from the start you will have seen that I have played cash on 3/4 tables at 15/30 each night this week. The problem has been that I have done it after playing tournaments each day. I have no doubts I can beat this level, but obviously it was more important for me to play perfect poker in the 220 biggie last night than it was at this cash level. So where should I go from here ?
I'm quite surprised you dont get a buzz winning a pot at 30nl. I would get a buzz winning at any level. Even free play, The main excitement with poker is winning the hand for me. When I play I just play with numbers. And just aim to play my best and win. Then the money I win is a nice bonus. Cash is all long term. You have to look at how much you win over one week/month/year to get excited about the money, Also I think there is decent money to be made at 30nl. I'm not going to talk numbers, but I think playing it full-time would make a decent wage. Better than what mcdonalds would pay anyway lol As several have said, its best to start smaller and work your way up. Jumping in at the deep end could be very costly. Posted by 5toneFace
You don't get a free dinner working at 30nl though
But he's right, there is alot of money to be made at that level if your're willing to put the time in.
Wont last much longer though it will start getting harder soon I reckon.
Thanks for all this constructive stuff. I dont want this thread to degenerate into a cash players are better than tourny players argument. I dont think anyone is arguing that the top cash players are not right up there. A couple of years ago I played a few big tournaments with a friend ( who is not a particularly good player) watching over my shoulder. He got me to justify every decision to him, and to explain what had happened when I made a mistake. Huge benefit to my game ! I would probably need someone more experienced to watch me at cash. If you have followed this thread from the start you will have seen that I have played cash on 3/4 tables at 15/30 each night this week. The problem has been that I have done it after playing tournaments each day. I have no doubts I can beat this level, but obviously it was more important for me to play perfect poker in the 220 biggie last night than it was at this cash level. So where should I go from here ? Posted by penguin7
Coaching someone is a great way to improve because you have to be able to justify everything you do. And often you realise you cant!!
The play should be different but the same reasoning from tournaments and cash are applicable to pbith you just have to realise where to utilise the lower value of a cash stack to a tournament stack in gambling and where not to.
Also if you can buyinto a £220 tournament you can play nl200 at least bankroll wise!
Try making a half hour video of your play (pm me for help with software etc if you need) and get someone you respect to look through it if you can, then go from there.
Comments
But if your experience of Sky tournaments is infrequent, other than watching 865 you may be missing something. Obviously the majority of televised events are large fields with many inexperienced and recreational players. And its not usually the perfectly played hands that make good TV ! I play enough larger buyin, smaller field tournaments to know that the majority of players in that type of game are more than competent,and many have a lot more than ABC poker to their game. I dont think I have ever won one by simply playing ABC.
And one of the disadvantages of playing the higher quality tournaments is that I cant pick and choose my opponents. Sometimes I look around a table and just know its going to be tough with no weak players to exploit.
When I do have a serious go at cash, at whatever level I choose to come in, I will certainly follow the good example set by the top guys and pick and choose my opponents as carefully as I can. And trust me, if a James or a Lolufold or quite a few others join me at the table I will have no shame at all. You wont see me for dust ! !
As for playing the game for the games sake, I dont yet enjoy cash enough to simply do that. Far more likely to enter an insignificant little tourny and try a few moves, or often play a PLO8 tournament for £1.
Another thing i did was i sometimes loaded a 30p scary STT to fill my need for action, not always great for your game though. This meant i was content with raking in small pots in the cash without hurting my BR.
Cash is all long term. You have to look at how much you win over one week/month/year to get excited about the money,
Also I think there is decent money to be made at 30nl. I'm not going to talk numbers, but I think playing it full-time would make a decent wage. Better than what mcdonalds would pay anyway lol
As several have said, its best to start smaller and work your way up. Jumping in at the deep end could be very costly.
A couple of years ago I played a few big tournaments with a friend ( who is not a particularly good player) watching over my shoulder. He got me to justify every decision to him, and to explain what had happened when I made a mistake. Huge benefit to my game ! I would probably need someone more experienced to watch me at cash.
If you have followed this thread from the start you will have seen that I have played cash on 3/4 tables at 15/30 each night this week. The problem has been that I have done it after playing tournaments each day. I have no doubts I can beat this level, but obviously it was more important for me to play perfect poker in the 220 biggie last night than it was at this cash level. So where should I go from here ?
But he's right, there is alot of money to be made at that level if your're willing to put the time in.
Wont last much longer though it will start getting harder soon I reckon.