Cant ever remember simuk posting on this matter at all.so why now? OR was he asked to make this blog? Posted by debdobs_67
This is pretty lol.
Not only do the conspiratory theorists not trust the motives of the online poker sites, they now don't trust the motives of anyone who tries to put a counter argument.
... I see online as a very different game to live. The skill level is much lower, ... Posted by AMYBR
That's an interesting theory as I can't think of any players I know personally who think it's that way round.
Obviously a 1c/2c player online is going to have a lower standard than a £1/£2 live player, but comparing like for like I've never seen anything in live play which suggests the average standard of live play is anything but abysmal.
This is why so many winning live players get suspicious of online play, they're used to a much lower standard and can't adapt to a different dynamic.
In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : you write the same old stuff over & over again its rather boring. if you dont like it the door is that way<<<<<<<<<<<< simples!!! Posted by seppe
The blogger asked for peoples thoughts and those are mine. It takes a real special kind of person to make one of their ONLY EVER posts to tell someone if they dont like something to use the door. Really would be far more fitting that if you dont like the subject content DONT READ IT OR FEEL THE NEED TO REPLY RUDELY, even "simples-erer" :P
Equally I find people who make the "if you think online is rigged dont play it" comments very boring. I dont think I have ever said that Online IS rigged. I merely want to have the open conversation with people who have questions as I do, which is healthy, appropriate and normal. It is also what this thread was opened for, so it is very rude and oppositional - and simply against the spirit of the thread -for people to come out with the conversation killer that is the "dont like dont play" nonsense.
People like you arent interested in open informed debate. Why broaden your knowledge base when you can just deride other people, keeping your mind and point of view as small as possible,
In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : That's an interesting theory as I can't think of any players I know personally who think it's that way round. Obviously a 1c/2c player online is going to have a lower standard than a £1/£2 live player, but comparing like for like I've never seen anything in live play which suggests the average standard of live play is anything but abysmal. This is why so many winning live players get suspicious of online play, they're used to a much lower standard and can't adapt to a different dynamic. Posted by BelovedLtd
I hear what you say but it isnt something I agree with. Only speaking for myself its not the dynamic thats the issue, its just people playing very very badly. But If I'm fully honest my game is tournements and £3/6 live cash so I cant weigh in too heavily on this. Most I play cash online is normally the 25/50 and I imagine the quality of play would increase at each level. But to get back on point this thread isnt really about whether live vs online is easier/harder. The comment in my post was mainly directed at the lower stakes, where I think everyone can agree that - for the most part -the play is a joke. But putting my devils advocate hat on - if you could sit and play 1p/2p 4p/8p 5p/10p at your local casino i Imagine the play would be just as bad.
In essence the initial comment made in my first post was simply to demonstrate that there are many elements that go into making online a very different game to Live (i.e skill level, chip handling, reads, feel for opponents and thinking time). I was simply tring to offer a balanced point of view
see previous post bud, that really is such a shortighted dogmatic comment. Posted by AMYBR
My comment maybe, in your opinion, shortsighted, dogmatic etc. But I still would like to know why anyone would play a game that they honestly think is rigged
I'd of thought that it would be pretty obvious. Poker, by its nature is incredibly addictive. Long time players are often borderline dependant or in worse scenarios addicted. Thats part of the potential issue with internet poker. Its incredibly accessible and sat there in the comfort of your own home.
The whole question of "why play if you think its rigged" kind of falls on rocky ground here. With round the clock multi format commercials, sign up offers and accessibilty it is actually very hard to give up the game.
Hand on my heart I know I'm dependant/addicted to poker. But I dont just play poker, I am a poker player, it is part of how I define myself and is central to my livelyhood and social aspects of my life. I'm just fortunate enough to have three excellent local casino's and truly prefer the Live game far more than online. But for others who have more limited options that addiction and lack of alternative formats to play could lead to real issues. Especially as if your account lies dormant or undeposited into the sites often credit free money to come back. Somebody else mentioned that this is hardly representing responsible gambling, to which I fully agree.
I truly perceive online as something to do to fill time until the casino opens. Maybe also to hone deepstack strategy in MTT's. Again for the record, I've never said I believe online is rigged. But I do find the two formats incomparable and I can't reconcile the boards or beats that are seen to any core principle of math. Only speaking from my experience it runs frm the ever increasing improbable to the impossible. I am speaking of online poker in general.
I'd of thought that it would be pretty obvious. Poker, by its nature is incredibly addictive. Long time players are often borderline dependant or in worse scenarios addicted. Thats part of the potential issue with internet poker. Its incredibly accessible and sat there in the comfort of your own home. The whole question of "why play if you think its rigged" kind of falls on rocky ground here. With round the clock multi format commercials, sign up offers and accessibilty it is actually very hard to give up the game. Hand on my heart I know I'm dependant/addicted to poker. But I dont just play poker, I am a poker player, it is part of how I define myself and is central to my livelyhood and social aspects of my life. I'm just fortunate enough to have three excellent local casino's and truly prefer the Live game far more than online. But for others who have more limited options that addiction and lack of alternative formats to play could lead to real issues. Especially as if your account lies dormant or undeposited into the sites often credit free money to come back. Somebody else mentioned that this is hardly representing responsible gambling, to which I fully agree. I truly perceive online as something to do to fill time until the casino opens. Maybe also to hone deepstack strategy in MTT's. Again for the record, I've never said I believe online is rigged. But I do find the two formats incomparable and I can't reconcile the boards or beats that are seen to any core principle of math. Only speaking from my experience it runs frm the ever increasing improbable to the impossible. I am speaking of online poker in general. Posted by AMYBR
OK a valid argument.
I am right in thinking then that, in your eyes, the On Line poker companies are similar to the cigarette companies, who knowingly create a situation where they can make a profit through an addiction that is harmful for the target audience they are trying to attract
I can't reconcile the boards or beats that are seen to any core principle of math. Only speaking from my experience it runs frm the ever increasing improbable to the impossible. I am speaking of online poker in general. Posted by AMYBR
I was playing a live MTT last week... in truth only messing around til the cash game opened.
Was having a bit of banter with the guy 2 to my left.
His BB next, and he says 'if you jam on my big blind again I will call blind'.
I have 15 BB's, and without looking stick it in, he sighs and says 'I'm a man of my word...' and duly calls.
I turn my cards over, 'KK' (wiiiiiiiiiiii) what's the chance of picking up KK when I blind shove?
He turns over a 9, and leaves the other card face down.
Flop comes 922, can't remember the rest.
He flips his other card, obv a 2!
What's the chances of that?
I've seen plenty of 1 / 2 outers live, quads over quads, quads v straight flush etc....
I've been involved in 6 £3k+ pots live, in the last couple of months, been flippping or ahead in 5, and only won 1.
Therefore I am sure you can understand why I find it difficult to accept the argument that some of the things you see online, never would happen live.
When someone loses a 65/35 shot, we can spend hours listening to how unlucky they are.... how often do you hear someone win one of these and tell everyone how lucky they are. Why lucky? Well basically, because they only deserved 65% of the pot, and got 100% of it.
People's perceptions are massively skewed to being more greatly impacted by a negative turn of events, than by a positive outcome.
(...and breathe...).
I've yet to see anyone post any evidence that SkyPoker are anything but straight, or any sensible reason why they would not be.
I'm not expecting that situation to change any time in the forseeable future.
I've seen on this thread, and in another thread, the comment that Skypoker should be doing something about convincing us that they are on the level. And an inference that not doing this infers that something may not be right.
Why should they. If it was my business, I probably wouldn't do anything.
Why not?
- it's difficult to change minds that are already made up.
- if I know I am reputable & honest, why should I waste my time trying to prove it, when there is no evidence to the contrary.
- it would be a difficult / complicated and expensive thing to do.
There is a point of view that by not doing this, they are losing business.
I'm not sure that is the case.
Most of the 'area 51' posts are from losing players. Usually, despite their moans and groans, they still play.
If you offered them proof that it wasn't a rigged poker site that was causing them to lose, they may finally find out that they are pretty poor at the game.... and give up. No excuses left, see.
And a lot of the people who leave SkyPoker to go and play other sites, will come back at some point.
Not all, but that is the reality of business, and SP seem to be winning more new customers than they are losing, so alll's good in that area.
If you ask questions about the tests carried out on card distribution you are referred by Sky Bernie to the RNG certificate. On there it clearly states that the tests are carried out by TST, who are approved and overseen by the Alderney GCC. If you then direct your questions to those companies you are either ignored or, despite numerous communications, they will not give a straight answer. Even when the question is put in such a way that a straightforward Yes or No answer can be given - no answer is forthcoming. When you then direct details of that communication back to Sky it is ignored or you are then given a link to the RNG Certificate - so it's back to square one.
If that seems Ok then there really is little more to be added.
In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : I was playing a live MTT last week... in truth only messing around til the cash game opened. Was having a bit of banter with the guy 2 to my left. His BB next, and he says 'if you jam on my big blind again I will call blind'. I have 15 BB's, and without looking stick it in, he sighs and says 'I'm a man of my word...' and duly calls. I turn my cards over, 'KK' (wiiiiiiiiiiii) what's the chance of picking up KK when I blind shove? He turns over a 9, and leaves the other card face down. Flop comes 922, can't remember the rest. He flips his other card, obv a 2! What's the chances of that? I've seen plenty of 1 / 2 outers live, quads over quads, quads v straight flush etc.... I've been involved in 6 £3k+ pots live, in the last couple of months, been flippping or ahead in 5, and only won 1. Therefore I am sure you can understand why I find it difficult to accept the argument that some of the things you see online, never would happen live. When someone loses a 65/35 shot, we can spend hours listening to how unlucky they are.... how often do you hear someone win one of these and tell everyone how lucky they are. Why lucky? Well basically, because they only deserved 65% of the pot, and got 100% of it. People's perceptions are massively skewed to being more greatly impacted by a negative turn of events, than by a positive outcome. (...and breathe...). I've yet to see anyone post any evidence that SkyPoker are anything but straight, or any sensible reason why they would not be. I'm not expecting that situation to change any time in the forseeable future. Posted by jakally
Jackally: I could take losing 20 65/35's in quick sucsession without batting an eyelid. Thats poker, not a real issue. I'm talking 85% upwards and far too many less than 1%ers. I'm not some clown who doesnt understand odds or variance. Also yes bad beats happen live frequently, but its the level of frequency that I wont reconcile. I'm not a member of the higher hand per hour club.
JockBMW: To be honest bud the juries out for me. I do think that there is huge potential for online poker to be rigged, but that doesnt make it so. I also recognise that if this was the case then it would mostly be against a profitable business model. I would not say with confidence that poker is rigged. What I will say is that, for many reasons, Live vs online play is uncomparable. My main concern falls with the RNG's, so if there is an issue it doesnt neccassarily mean the host sites are complicit in it. Based on intensive live experience I simply cannot accept the action seen.
But I think the most important thing is that it is OK and healthy for consumers to have this debate openly, without being demeaned and attacked at every turn. Shunting anyone who raises concern or are looking for an informed debate to a forum headed "area 51" says it all. I joined this forum around a month ago to genuinely ask peoples opinions on the matter, in an open non critical way. I was instantly labelled a moaning nutter and put in area 51. To me this speaks volumes. My mind still remains undecided, but I have found more and more that the industry simply isnt keen on people sharing exeriences in a sincere way. Most worryingly a very polite, well mannered thread on RNG's was closed for no reason or explanation.
Dealers at casino's arent beyond reproach. Its not uncommon for players to share concern and on occasion a dealer will be investigated and found of wrongdoings. Should online players not have the right to share concerns and be treated with respect? (Devils advocate hat again - There are some individuals that whine on about three hands they lost without really realising they were only 60/40 so I get why some players rudely dismiss peoples concerns. But if you look beyond these types there are people conducting very polite informed debates)
In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : if theres one difference between live and online play its that online is alot harder than live poker at the same levels Posted by LOL_RAISE
+1
To even suggest Live Poker is more difficult and challenging than online poker at the same levels is absurd..... Online Poker is far more difficult...
See where does the basis of this come from? 6max live full ring, short hand, capped, deep stack... whichever. Poker is poker. Percentages are percentages. There is no real reason for it to be harder. The game is the same. Surely it is only your feel for your opponent and thinking time that changes. It being online or live shouldnt change a thing to the game or action, merely your ability to play it.
Everything is up for debate bud, Isnt that the point? I think there is an element of Bias to be fair.
How many of you decent stakes online cash players have many years experience decent stakes live? But either way, its not important, this really isnt the larger issue.
In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : This is pretty lol. Not only do the conspiratory theorists not trust the motives of the online poker sites, they now don't trust the motives of anyone who tries to put a counter argument. Posted by jakally
Yep EXACTLY, as is anyone who puts any valid counter argument the other way eh? so LOOOOOOOL straight back at you mr big shot
again nice post amybr, no company is beyond approach, no government no individual. my concern in online gambling only became apparent when speaking to somebody who set up a franchise poker league. they also had an online site as well, during the conversation i commented on the amount of royal flushes i had had while playing on the "play money" tables( 4 in a mnth). he told me that the play money tables were"glammed up" to bring in new players to the game. now at no point did he infur the money tables were running on the same rng(but why would you have 2). things like facebook poker(never played it) i hear has an obscene amount of high end hands. both free money and facebook poker most have an rng, and my point is ,if these can be distorted to produce more"glam" hands why not any other rng. (dont know if they have the "CERTIFICATE"). NB AT NO POINT IS THIS POST DID I SAY SKY IS FIXED, this is not my thinking and i am talking about other rngs not this one.ps i have read 2 of your 3 posts sepe and for a man who claims to play 5/10 hu you seem to be lacking the brain space to put a constructive post together with out insulting people, maybe your 4th attempt may prove me wrong, but if you read this i very much doubt it!!!!!!!
Comments
The blogger asked for peoples thoughts and those are mine. It takes a real special kind of person to make one of their ONLY EVER posts to tell someone if they dont like something to use the door. Really would be far more fitting that if you dont like the subject content DONT READ IT OR FEEL THE NEED TO REPLY RUDELY, even "simples-erer" :P
Equally I find people who make the "if you think online is rigged dont play it" comments very boring. I dont think I have ever said that Online IS rigged. I merely want to have the open conversation with people who have questions as I do, which is healthy, appropriate and normal. It is also what this thread was opened for, so it is very rude and oppositional - and simply against the spirit of the thread -for people to come out with the conversation killer that is the "dont like dont play" nonsense.
People like you arent interested in open informed debate. Why broaden your knowledge base when you can just deride other people, keeping your mind and point of view as small as possible,
I hear what you say but it isnt something I agree with. Only speaking for myself its not the dynamic thats the issue, its just people playing very very badly. But If I'm fully honest my game is tournements and £3/6 live cash so I cant weigh in too heavily on this. Most I play cash online is normally the 25/50 and I imagine the quality of play would increase at each level. But to get back on point this thread isnt really about whether live vs online is easier/harder. The comment in my post was mainly directed at the lower stakes, where I think everyone can agree that - for the most part -the play is a joke. But putting my devils advocate hat on - if you could sit and play 1p/2p 4p/8p 5p/10p at your local casino i Imagine the play would be just as bad.
In essence the initial comment made in my first post was simply to demonstrate that there are many elements that go into making online a very different game to Live (i.e skill level, chip handling, reads, feel for opponents and thinking time). I was simply tring to offer a balanced point of view
The whole question of "why play if you think its rigged" kind of falls on rocky ground here. With round the clock multi format commercials, sign up offers and accessibilty it is actually very hard to give up the game.
Hand on my heart I know I'm dependant/addicted to poker. But I dont just play poker, I am a poker player, it is part of how I define myself and is central to my livelyhood and social aspects of my life. I'm just fortunate enough to have three excellent local casino's and truly prefer the Live game far more than online. But for others who have more limited options that addiction and lack of alternative formats to play could lead to real issues. Especially as if your account lies dormant or undeposited into the sites often credit free money to come back. Somebody else mentioned that this is hardly representing responsible gambling, to which I fully agree.
I truly perceive online as something to do to fill time until the casino opens. Maybe also to hone deepstack strategy in MTT's. Again for the record, I've never said I believe online is rigged. But I do find the two formats incomparable and I can't reconcile the boards or beats that are seen to any core principle of math. Only speaking from my experience it runs frm the ever increasing improbable to the impossible. I am speaking of online poker in general.
JockBMW: To be honest bud the juries out for me. I do think that there is huge potential for online poker to be rigged, but that doesnt make it so. I also recognise that if this was the case then it would mostly be against a profitable business model. I would not say with confidence that poker is rigged. What I will say is that, for many reasons, Live vs online play is uncomparable. My main concern falls with the RNG's, so if there is an issue it doesnt neccassarily mean the host sites are complicit in it. Based on intensive live experience I simply cannot accept the action seen.
But I think the most important thing is that it is OK and healthy for consumers to have this debate openly, without being demeaned and attacked at every turn. Shunting anyone who raises concern or are looking for an informed debate to a forum headed "area 51" says it all. I joined this forum around a month ago to genuinely ask peoples opinions on the matter, in an open non critical way. I was instantly labelled a moaning nutter and put in area 51. To me this speaks volumes. My mind still remains undecided, but I have found more and more that the industry simply isnt keen on people sharing exeriences in a sincere way. Most worryingly a very polite, well mannered thread on RNG's was closed for no reason or explanation.
Dealers at casino's arent beyond reproach. Its not uncommon for players to share concern and on occasion a dealer will be investigated and found of wrongdoings. Should online players not have the right to share concerns and be treated with respect? (Devils advocate hat again - There are some individuals that whine on about three hands they lost without really realising they were only 60/40 so I get why some players rudely dismiss peoples concerns. But if you look beyond these types there are people conducting very polite informed debates)
um the skill level of your opponents obviously is the difference. Its not even up for debate on which is harder.
How many of you decent stakes online cash players have many years experience decent stakes live? But either way, its not important, this really isnt the larger issue.
again nice post amybr, no company is beyond approach, no government no individual. my concern in online gambling only became apparent when speaking to somebody who set up a franchise poker league. they also had an online site as well, during the conversation i commented on the amount of royal flushes i had had while playing on the "play money" tables( 4 in a mnth). he told me that the play money tables were"glammed up" to bring in new players to the game. now at no point did he infur the money tables were running on the same rng(but why would you have 2). things like facebook poker(never played it) i hear has an obscene amount of high end hands. both free money and facebook poker most have an rng, and my point is ,if these can be distorted to produce more"glam" hands why not any other rng. (dont know if they have the "CERTIFICATE"). NB AT NO POINT IS THIS POST DID I SAY SKY IS FIXED, this is not my thinking and i am talking about other rngs not this one.ps i have read 2 of your 3 posts sepe and for a man who claims to play 5/10 hu you seem to be lacking the brain space to put a constructive post together with out insulting people, maybe your 4th attempt may prove me wrong, but if you read this i very much doubt it!!!!!!!